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Music for this episode: Penny the Snitch by Ikebe Shakedown.

Episode 108 Refuse Fascism

Sam Goldman 0:22
Welcome to Episode 108 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with RefuseFascism.org. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes, and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in this country.

Sam Goldman 0:47
Before we get to today’s show, I want to give a shout out to supporters of Refuse Fascism. We couldn’t do the show without you. If you want to give, go to RefuseFascism.org and hit the donate button. Thanks to all who are rating, reviewing, sharing, subscribing and following to help us reach more listeners. If you haven’t yet reviewed us on Apple podcast or your listening platform of choice, go do it now. Well, of course after listening to today’s episode. Without all the big monetized shows that have staff and publicists, we appreciate the you value what we have to say. We read all your reviews, emails, comments and tweets. So after listening to this episode, share your thoughts with us. You can leave us a voicemail at Anchor.fm/Refuse-Fascism/message and because that’s ridiculously long, just go to the show notes and hit the link.

Sam Goldman 1:42
As we have been reporting on in depth on this show, the US Supreme Court is on track to take away the right to abortion within the next few weeks, decimating Roe v Wade, the landmark 1973 decision that formalized the right to abortion in this country. The end of Roe v Wade would constitute one of the most significant reversals of a fundamental human and civil right in this country’s history. On the one-week anniversary of abortion being gone in Kentucky, RiseUp4AbortionRights.org held a die-in at Metro Hall in Louisville, Kentucky in conjunction with spreading coat hangers across the country with a flyer that had an explanation on what coat hangers represent and the message: “The US Supreme Court is poised to take away abortion rights this spring. Only the people can stop this. Take to the streets for abortion rights now. Abortion on demand and without apology!” The message also called for people to rise up, wear green, to join a week of action May 8 – 14 with Saturday May 14 as a day of nationwide protests. Here is Sunsara Taylor, an initiator of RiseUp4AbortionRights, followed by Patricia Wallin, a lead organizer with RiseUp4AbortionRights, speaking in Kentucky this past Thursday, shortly after a temporary stay was issued re-opening Kentucky’s two clinics.

Sunsara Taylor 3:08
It is very good that there is a temporary stay on these bans and restrictions in Kentucky. It is very good for women and other people who are pregnant and don’t want to be, that they can go to a clinic here in Kentucky tomorrow and get an abortion. But no one should have any illusion that this is the end game, that this fight is over, that we can rest easy. This is a temporary stay, and these women haters, these violent misogynist, angry, entitled haters of women, biblical literalists who are here harassing us all day, screaming in people’s faces, telling us that women should submit to their husbands like their husbands submit to the Lord, defending slavery — yes, they did — defending the killing of LGBTQ people and women who are not virgins on their wedding night. They defended that to us here today. They upheld that. People who think this way have tremendous power in this country and they are on a roll. Nothing is going to stop them except the people rising up in our millions. So I want to give a salute to everybody who came here from across the country. I want to give a salute to everybody who came from Louisville and other parts of Kentucky to stand up here today.

Patricia Wallins 4:34
You see, I was born in El Salvador in Central America. You may not know that for the last 25 years abortion has been illegal in El Salvador. There are women in prison right now, at this very moment now, serving sentences of 30 or more years because they had a miscarriage or they had a stillbirth. When I saw the women there taking to the streets tirelessly, I felt like here I am, living in the US, and they’re there in El Salvador, in Honduras and Nicaragua, Guatemala, Dominican Republic, Mexico, where it’s unsafe just for being a woman. They’re not staying silent. They’re protesting because they will not get tired of denouncing the injustice until their rights can be guaranteed. I never thought that I was going to have to rally in the US for abortion rights. They told me last week that Kentucky took away women’s rights to abortion. So that’s why I’m here today with you to unite our voice and make it stronger to say that we’re not going to stay in the home silent when these assaults on women’s rights are happening. You being here matters because women in Argentina, Colombia and Mexico they won the right for abortion by showing up in millions to the streets, united by the green bandana, by the color green. You being here matters. We will not stay quiet, Kentucky. I want to thank you so much for caring enough for the life of women. Rise up for abortion rights! [Crowd responds: Rise up for abortion rights.]

Sam Goldman 6:21
Governor Ron DeSantis, CPAC’s favored backup if Trump isn’t able to run in 2024, and the state GOP running the fascist state of Florida have been on a roll these past weeks. After years of criminalizing dissent, months of banning any discussion of racism or sex or gender outside of the traditional white Christian cis hetero nuclear family or even things like sharing in schools, now they are going after Disney as the American fascist zeitgeist has centered on the company as Enemy Number 1 — well, after Black people, immigrants and LGBTQ people, of course. This past week, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill dissolving Disney’s private government after the company criticized DeSantis’s law that’s been dubbed “Don’t Say Gay” law. Very tellingly, Florida’s lieutenant governor said, we might back off Disney if they change their politics. This is but a taste of the vicious punishment of opposition the Republi-fascists have their eyes on nationwide. It’s on us to refuse fascism. You might look at it, and it might seem counterproductive, even odd. After all, Disney largely represents American empire around the world and for decades has been weaving the dominant American narrative based in many traditions that these fascists hold dear. But, in fact, all of that is central to why they are doing this. The ruling class in this country is deeply split. You can see this in the fascist attacks on The New York Times and the media generally through threats and attempts to lock up or even murder their ruling class opponents, their gutting of major functions of the government and in their undermining of the governing consensus, the peaceful transfer of power, the reality of science, the relationship with our allies abroad. Even as all these institutions bend over backwards to accommodate the fascists, the GOP is uncompromising in their cruel and brutal vision of the future. Very tellingly, Disney has literally given millions to these fascist politicians over the years as a standard operating procedure; donating across the ruling class political spectrum. But it is partially that “inclusive” approach itself, which is similarly reflected in the overall morality Disney promotes today, which the fascists cannot abide. Let’s be clear, Disney Productions have not painted a picture of a truly liberated future, the struggle to upend oppression, based on gender or sex. They, however, have criticized these fascists, and the fascists cannot stand for that. There’s also been much discussion about the accusation of grooming, that, you know, Disney is “grooming” children to be homosexuals. There’s been some talk that this is somehow convenient. No, it’s fascist — fascist to the core. As Ari Paul wrote in Haaretz, “The millennia-old myth of the blood libel with its stories about Jewish predators of Christian children has long been a central motivating factor in anti-Jewish violence. The fear of Black men lusting after white women reinforced Jim Crow segregation. False accusations of violent perversion have always worked to justify violent acts and oppressive systems.” Going on to say, “Any population that undermines patriarchy is a threat to fascism for whom patriarchy is central.” Their accusations against Disney are merely based on the fact that Disney portrays the reality that LGBTQ people exist. This is what’s unacceptable to them. The same week that they stripped Disney of this special status for explicitly political purposes, they kicked the press out of the Florida Capitol and shut down wifi there to try to bury a protest by Democrats against DeSantis’ racist gerrymandered electoral mapping, redrawing the lines to ensure continued fascist domination in the fascist state of Florida. We’re going to continue talking about this. You can also go back to some of our previous episodes, including the episode where we talk to students who joined the walkout, for more on this story. In light of this week’s revelations, on today’s show, we’re highlighting some clips of some of the many episodes of our show that explored the implications of the January 6 coup. We hope you’ll go back and listen to these episodes and many others in full. Once again, Kevin McCarthy denied that he ever said that Trump should resign. The difference this time, this week, was that mere hours later, audio of him saying just that on January 10 to House Republicans was released. The fact that this is coming out in relation to book deals over a year later, a year in which many involved in the coup have held power, in which the leaders have strategized to seize power more effectively next time and not through urgent criminal investigations is damning of the so-called opposition. This past November, I spoke to Elie Hoenig, CNN legal analyst, author and former federal and state prosecutor regarding the January 6 insurrection not being over. Here is a taste of that episode, which continues to be relevant.

Elie Honig 11:22
Every new piece of information we’ve learned has really gone towards one conclusion, which is, this was part of the plan January 6, this was something that people expected to happen, hoped would happen, stoked along that it wasn’t just Donald Trump acting alone, he had ready and willing assists from people like Mark Meadows and John Easton, and this lawyer who we’re learning about now, and Jeffrey Clark inside the Justice Department. I mean, the list of accomplices is getting longer and longer. So I guess that brings us to there’s two main ways we’re ever going to get answers and accountability here. One is Congress and two is prosecutors. Congress has done a good — not great but good — job so far of getting answers. So expulsion is constitutionally available. Congress can expel its members with two-thirds of the vote. It’s almost never done. But I think you’re raising a very important question for me, which is how aggressive or passive — and as you can tell, I’m guessing we’re going to end up on the far passive side of things — will Congress be about enforcing accountability from its own, because if you notice that first batch of subpoenas that the House Committee sent out, it was to Mark Meadows and Kash Patel and Steve Bannon and Dan Scavino and then Jeffrey Clark. None of them are members of Congress. However, there clearly are members of Congress. I don’t care if you like these people or hate these people who have direct information who were in direct contact with Donald Trump on January 6. We know for a fact Kevin McCarthy had a really antagonistic conversation with Trump on the 6th. Despite Kevin McCarthy’s later turned around, he apparently got on the phone with Trump and said you need to call your people off and Trump said something like apparently they’re more upset about the election than you are, Kevin, and Kevin McCarthy said to him, who the F do you think you’re talking to here? When you see what Trump did and what his enablers are very high on the list among them did was they said, screw it, we’re gonna do whatever’s best for us in the moment. We’re going to trample norms. We’re going to trample values. And we’re going to bank on the fact that our institutions and our political opponents are not going to have the strength, the ability, to do anything about it. Now, to some extent, there’s limits on what what can be done. But again, I’ve been critical of Merrick Garland, I think he’s really come up short on that.

Sam Goldman 13:30
Refuse Fascism sounded the alarm on the danger Trump posed, including his likelihood to steal, subvert or overturn the election for years prior to the January 6 coup. Months prior, we put special emphasis on this, which included mobilizing people into the streets, calling on people to drive out the Trump/Pence regime through sustained mass protest. In addition, we held public forums and ran full-page ads making this case. For those new to Refuse Fascism, go back and listen to old episodes of this show. Visit RefuseFascism.org for more on our history, and analysis.

Sam Goldman 14:11
On Trump’s last day in office, I talked with Dr. Jo-Marie Burt, scholar of political violence, human rights and transitional justice in Latin America. She is professor at the Schar School of Policy and Government at George Mason University and the Senior Fellow at the Washington Office on Latin America. We talked about what we can learn about recovery from the Trump years and attempted self coup from other countries, along with what the importance of accountability is. Over a year and a half later, this continues to ring true.

Jo-Marie Burt 14:43
Accountability is of utmost importance here. Those responsible need to be held accountable. So we’re seeing the ongoing arrest of dozens of individuals who participated in the breach of the US Capitol, some of whom are responsible not only for desecrating that space, for trespassing, for making a big mess, but for deaths. We all know that five people were killed. One Capitol police official was bludgeoned to death by a fire extinguisher. I mean, this is really unthinkable. So people need to be held accountable for those actions, but not just what we call in international law parlance the material authors, people who actually committed the crime, but also the intellectual authors, the people who were behind the crimes, who facilitated the crimes, who incited or directed the crimes to happen. No one is going to say that President Trump told a supporter to bludgeon a US Capitol police official to death. But he did incite them in several ways: by lying about the results of the election, by urging them to march on the Capitol, by trying to undermine the results of the election through calls to those Georgia State officials that we we’ve all read in horror about using the language of violence and vindictiveness to the point where this is another one of those lingo things that political scientists like me use. What happens when one or more of the parties no longer agree to play by the rules of the game? I think that’s what we’ve seen over these years with Trump, the Trumpist wing of the Republican Party. Some people say that is the Republican Party now. I’m not 100% sure that that’s the case, and I’m hopeful that it’s not the case. And then maybe there will be some — I don’t know what to call it, splits, purging, rethinking what the Republican Party is, and what its role in democracy is? Because if you are elected into office, and then you go up and say those elections were fraudulent, well, they can’t be fraudulent only for some of the elections and not for the others. That’s ludicrous. So that’s the big lie that we’re all hearing. I love that phrase, because I think it helps encapsulate what we’ve been living through for the past four years, a series of big lies. I mean, this is the big lie but we’ve been experiencing a series of lies that have led us to this moment. At the institutional level, will we hold those responsible, the material authors but also the intellectual authors?

Sam Goldman 17:08
This past January, Coco Das interviewed Dr. Anthony DiMaggio, author of the new book Rising Fascism in America. He made this a central point on why we need to continue to talk about the Republi-fascist attempt to overturn the election, because they’re planning to do it again. Here’s Tony:

Anthony DiMaggio 17:28
There is clearly fascist ideology that exists the United States, and it’s most strongly articulated in the US media with regards to right-wing media, figures on Fox News, OAN Network, Newsmax, talk radio, and so on. You can have a fascist movement that includes tens of millions of Americans who subscribe to the use of violence for political purposes and believe in white nationalism and the cult of the personality around Trump. By the way, 62% of Trump supporters said during his presidency that there was nothing he could do that would make them not support him. That’s the cult of personality, clearly, in almost two thirds of his supporters. So, the subtitle of the book is It Can Happen Here, which means that we had an election in 2020 where state Republican leaders and state Democratic leaders told Trump, in terms of his big lie and stealing the election, his attempts to pull off an insurrection and a coup. But that doesn’t mean that they can’t happen again, moving forward, because what Trump did was really very simplistic. It was this idea that if it didn’t work in 2020, and Mike Pence isn’t going to hand you an election through a coup, and the state leaders aren’t going to hand it to you, then find people who will. You just do that next time. You spend the next few years promoting BIG LIE election propaganda that’s totally baseless, and you replace these people at the state level and the local level who certify elections and you find people who will nullify majority votes in swing states. And so that’s part of the end goal here is moving toward this idea of a one-party state.

Sam Goldman 18:54
Similarly, in June 2021, Dahlia Lithwick, columnist for Slate.com and a host of the podcast Amicus about the Supreme Court, spoke on our show about the cost of no consequences for Trump. She put it this way:

Dahlia Lithwick 19:07
I think in some sense, your podcast single-handedly makes the larger point that I was trying to make, which is, you know, the thing that people like Amy Siskind or Bandy Lee, or the myriad people like Masha Gessen, Jason Stanley, and Tim Snyder have been trying to make for the past four and a half years, which is this is not normal. And to remind people that the heart wants what the heart wants, and what the heart wants is normal. No matter what was happening for the last four and a half years. I think the ability of most people to just integrate it and move on is shocking. And in some sense, what I’m describing is almost a mental health phenomenon that you can normalize anything and things that horrified us — the Muslim ban, the first week of the administration — at some point, we were okay with it. Family separations, we were out of our minds, we were marching, and then we were okay with it. Forcing migrant teenagers at the border to keep their pregnancies. At some point, the shock of all of these things dissipates.

Dahlia Lithwick 20:14
Then as we said the goalposts have moved, right? Now this is normal, and our brains long for normal. So I think one of the things I was trying to say is, I felt like I spent the four years of the Trump era as a legal correspondent, setting myself on fire, going into the green room at MSNBC and trying not to rip my hair out and scream, and trying over and over and over again to say, “This is not normal. This is not okay.” And being — I use the word “gaslit” advisedly — just constantly and consistently being told, not just by Bill Barr but by folks on the left, that we’re hysterical, we’re overreacting, you know, calm down, he’s not really going to stop vote by mail. Okay, maybe he’s going to try to stop vote by mail, but it’s not going to be with the complicity of Bill Barr. Oh, maybe with the complicity of Bill Barr, maybe he’s going to try to set aside the election results. Maybe he’s going to try to foment a coup. But at every turn, we are being told, come on, you are really overreacting here.

Dahlia Lithwick 21:18
I felt as though having spent four years being told it’s not that dire, please stop worrying, all the anxiety is just feeding into the hysteria, to have that directed at you again, post Trump, by folks at the Biden Justice Department, by some of the Democratic leadership. It’s like, “Oh, you know, don’t overreact. What Georgia and Texas are trying to do in suppressing the vote isn’t that bad. Who doesn’t have voter ID?” It’s so enervating when it comes from your own side. I think that was really what I was reacting to, that having spent four years essentially being told you’re completely nuts, none of this is going to come about. Oops, it came about, but move on. It’s really, really maddening when it comes from the very selfsame people that you entrusted to fix it.

Sam Goldman 22:14
Representative Jamie Raskin, a member of the January 6 Commission spoke this week at Georgetown University. He promised compelling evidence and hearings this summer, and a damning report by this fall. He said, “No president has ever come close to doing what happened here in terms of trying to organize an inside coup to overthrow an election and bypass the constitutional order, and then also use a violent insurrection made up of domestic violent extremist groups, white nationalists and racist fascist groups in order to support the coup.” He continued by saying, “It’s anybody’s guess what could have happened — martial law, civil war, you know, the beginning of authoritarianism.” There he was, speculating on what might have unfolded if the plan was successful. He later said, “I want people to pay attention to what’s going on here, because that’s as close to fascism as I ever want my country to come again. This was not a coup directed at the president. It was a coup directed by the president against the Vice President and against the Congress.” In reference to threats to Pence on January 6, including the chanting of rioters to hang him, Raskin said the Vice President’s Secret Service agents ran down to an undisclosed place in the Capitol. Those agents, Raskin said, he believes were reporting to Trump’s Secret Service agents, were trying to take Pence away from the Capitol. Pence, then, according to Raskin, “uttered what I think are the six most chilling words of this entire thing I’ve seen so far: I’m not getting in that car.” It’s important that he used the word fascism in describing this and vital that he’s starkly expressed the stakes. At the same time, the question remains: what will all this mean, at this crossroads for humanity? With that in mind, I now want to share a clip from my October 2021 interview with comedian and activist Walter Masterson, known for going deep into Trump territory, so deep in fact, he was present on January 6 and documented it. Have a listen to what he says about why we need to speak up and speak out.

Walter Masterson 24:44
There’s a lot of people in this country that identify themselves as centrists. Some of the most problems that I have on the internet and in my life are with centrists. These are people that say: Well, we need to hear out both sides. Everything is always both sides. Sometimes they’re coming from a genuine place. There’s a lot of people among that group — which I think we need to be very careful and vigilant about — they’re not centrists, they’re not progressives, what they are is closet conservatives. They don’t want to come out as conservative, so they say that they’re liberals, say that they’re progressive, and they say that they’re centrist, trying to see both sides. But the only side they really criticize is the left, the left, the left, the left. They’ve minimized white supremacy and Trumpism is a few 100 people in some flyover state somewhere. It’s not a big deal. Why do we have to worry about that? And those are the people I see as the most toxic. I get the most criticism from them. Those are the people that really get on my case about: Why don’t I just leave these people alone? I’ve had public arguments, people, friends, and so on, where I’m just like: Why do I need to just tie my hands behind my back? You know, these people were marching through the streets with a Trump flag. I need to restrain myself? There’s this thing, it’s amongst the left: We have to walk this very fine line. They’ll say we have to be better. No, we don’t. We don’t have to be better. I don’t think there’s any air of truth to it. I think when they say we have to be better, what they really mean is we have to tie our hands behind our back and be the ones that do nothing, and let white supremacists speak on our campuses and all of the above. At the core of everything I feel like we got to where we are in this nation, because not enough people really pushed back on things early on enough to make a difference. Can we push back on these ideas and fascism and this and so on and so forth? You know, you being sitting on the sidelines is not okay anymore.

Sam Goldman 26:43
A few days after the first anniversary of the January 6 fascist coup attempt, we ran an interview with Dr. Samuel Perry on the Christian nationalist violence post January 6. Dr. Perry, is the author of The Flag and the Cross: White Christian Nationalism and the Threat to American Democracy. He’s also Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of Oklahoma.

Dr. Samuel Perry 27:07
I think the leading myth is that this is somehow some kind of fringe thing. People look at the Capitol insurrection, and they think, wow, that mob of people were just radicalized, crazy. Who are these people? Unfortunately, you look at the QAnon Shaman wearing horns and screaming, and the image is just seared into everybody’s brain. It looks so comical and ridiculous, and over the top in a way that people can dismiss and be like: Wow, those people were crazy, look at that guy. They don’t see the crowd that just looked like the guy sitting next to you in the church. Because, guess what? That was the guy sitting next to a church who just happened to be radical. I go to church here in Norman with my family, and we have people in our church who believe in a stolen election, and they believe that COVID is a conspiracy and that vaccine mandates are for tyrants, and that they’d rather die than get vaccinated because they are so thoroughly bought into this narrative.

Dr. Samuel Perry 27:07
So, this is not a fringe thing. This is very much a mainstream thing. Even if it’s not a majority, we’re talking about millions and millions and millions of people who can be activated by demagogues who want to continue to spout misinformation along with their surrogates and their representatives and their advocates, their allies in the evangelical subculture on Christian radio or in Christian talk, or writers who want to pose those kind of things. So, you’re going to hear that these kinds of things are fringe and marginal, and statistically they may not be the majority, but this is a powerful and influential group of people who really have everything to gain from us dismissing this as something that is just: Oh, crazies, you know, these people. Meanwhile, they are pulling levers and working behind the scenes to make sure that they have stacked the odds in their favor electorally, judicially, legally legislatively to make sure that they don’t lose. You will have minority rule in this country, if we don’t pay attention. The democratic process is being undermined by a minority of people. And of course, why wouldn’t they? Why would a majority undermine the democratic process?

Sam Goldman 29:05
Again, go back, listen to all those episodes in full. You know what, while you’re at it, go check out some other ones. We’ve got other episodes that delve into January 6. So, go scroll through and let us know your thoughts. As we said in our anniversary statement, this past January, “This was a violent coup attempt, the culmination of a rolling coup Trump had been carrying out for months. While it failed in the immediate sense, January 6, became a dress rehearsal and rallying cry to further hardened and now battle-tested fascist movement and Republi-fascist party. This vicious coup attempt morphed into a comprehensive strategy of election subversion and voter suppression, while Trump’s loyal mobs to this day continue to storm the public square with threats of violence and terror. Wherever Republicans are in power they have both rewritten laws and shredded the rule of law to hammer in their white supremacist, misogynist and xenophobic fascist program. They have successfully undermined the very concept of truth, leaving 10s of millions to be susceptible to the calls of demagogues and the vilest conspiracy theories. And let’s be real Biden and the Democratic Party have not stopped or slowed the events of these fascists. Trump roams free to submit his hold over the GOP, continuing to hold rallies and run for president in 2024. While across the country, we are losing the right to abortion, voting, protest, history, education, free speech, or the ability to be, as state after state banned gender affirming care for trans youth. Death threats against public officials have become routine, and Christian fascists on the Supreme Court openly dehumanize women and people who can become pregnant with Roe v Wade in their crosshairs. What we continue to learn and see is that the January 6 coup attempt demonstrated that fascism is not just the worst of the pendulum swing. And while you might be over talking about it, we need to confront that we face an all out assault on the rule of law: fascism, a movement aiming to strip democratic rights from whole groups of people they see as subhuman. Trump and his fascist movement have torn up the norms and thrown out the rulebook, as several voices you’ve listened to today have examined, yet the outrage and hopes that people on the side of justice keep getting diverted into the very channels that are being eviscerated and away from the deep mass society-wide struggle that is needed. The Democratic Party has largely led people into inaction, passivity and conciliation with fascism. We gotta face it, we gotta confront it. Fascism can and is happening here and it can’t simply be voted away.

Sam Goldman 30:10
The question remains, what will the decent people do? Will the future be fascist or will we act? Here at Refuse Fascism, this show and the movement we’re a part of, we unite with people from diverse perspectives. We’re going to keep sounding the alarm, calling on people to join together to prevent the consolidation of this American fascism. Now is the time for deep engagement on the roots, nature and trajectory of the real and present danger of fascism, and what’s required to knock it off course.

Sam Goldman 32:36
Keep listening. Keep sharing your thoughts with us. Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. Don’t worry, we’ll be back next week with brand spanking new content. I want to hear from you. So share your thoughts, your questions, ideas for topics, guests, or just go tweet me @SamBGoldman. Drop me a line at [email protected]. Or leave a voicemail by visiting anchor.fm/ Refuse-Fascism/message.

Sam Goldman 33:06
Want to support the show? It’s simple. Show us some love by rating and reviewing on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your pod. And of course, follow us. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. And share, share, share share on your social media. Chip in to support our pod and content creation to help people understand and act to stop the fascist threat. Donate by visiting RefuseFascism.org and hit that donate button.

Sam Goldman 33:33
Big, big, big thanks to Richie Marini, Debra Sweet, Lina Thorne, and Mark Tinkleman for helping produce this episode. Thanks to incredible volunteers, we have transcripts available for each episode, so be sure to visit RefuseFascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox each week. We’ll be back next Sunday. Until that, in the name of humanity, we refuse to accept a fascist America.