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Episode 110 Refuse Fascism

Sun, 5/8 6:13PM • 37:49

Susana Chiarotti 00:00

I think that what is happening in the US regarding abortion is a brutal lesson for feminists. The draft ruling wants to take us back to medieval times. If it were to be approved, it would have a negative influence on the courts of other countries all over the world. What affects one affects us all. These are collective problems that magnify the collective movements. If women in the US do not mobilize in the states by the thousands they will not be able to reverse the sentence of the court.

Coco Das 00:48

Welcome to Episode 110 of the Refuse Fascism podcast. This podcast is brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Coco Das, one of those volunteers guest hosting this week’s episode. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in this country. 

In today’s episode, I want to follow up on the informative conversation I had last week with Marcela García about the green wave in Latin America, a movement in the streets that has been winning abortion rights, by sharing a conversation I had this week with Susana Chiarotti, the Latin America Regional Liaison for the Sisterhood Is Global Institute, about her op-ed in the Miami Herald, titled “While Roe v. Wade Is Under Attack in the US, Latin American Women Are Winning Abortion Rights.” 

But first, this was a week of seismic events, beginning with the leaked draft of the majority opinion authored by Samuel Alito, which signals the intention of the fascist majority of the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade. And then there was the outpouring of fury that followed, with thousands taking to the streets across the country in front of the Supreme Court itself that very night, and then, not only in the big cities, but in small towns in places that have been far too quiet as abortion ban after abortion ban gets passed, people flooding into the streets. 

This opinion takes up the most extreme rhetoric of the Christian fascist anti-abortion movement, while claiming a ridiculous assertion to originalism — a legal tactic weaponized by the fascist Federalist Society to overturn any of the progress of the post Jim Crow era. That opinion also explicitly criticizes Lawrence vs. Texas, which ended laws that banned gay sex, and Obergefell versus Hodges, which legalized same sex marriage. Alito claims they are not “deeply rooted in history.” The opinion even argues that women should be forced to give birth against their will, because there is a shortage of a “domestic supply of infants for adoption.” 

This is an atrocity but it is not yet law and doesn’t have to become law. It is what they are on track to do if we do not stop them. The fact is that we can stop them. This week also showed us how quickly things can change, and why it is never true to say that the people will never rise up. This week, we made a beginning with thousands of youth walking out of their schools on Thursday, and protests continuing into the weekend. Now everyone is talking about abortion. It is a question that everyone needs to take a side on. 

While, previously, the mainstream pro-choice forces were conciliating to the end of Roe in advance, this draft opinion made clear and brought out very starkly what a post Roe future would look like. Suddenly more and more people woke up to the fact that a post Roe world would be an intolerable nightmare. Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights has been organizing people in the streets to defend Roe since January. And when people started lifting their heads after this draft opinion was leaked, and they started looking around for what they can do, Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights was there and people had a place to turn to. Today begins a week of action, May 8th to the 14th, to grow this resistance into millions and stop the Supreme Court from taking away our right to abortion. On the back end of today’s episode, you’ll hear a couple of voices from the streets this week. 

But now here’s my interview with Susana Chiarotti.

Coco Das 04:50

Today I’m very excited to talk to Susanna karate. The Latin America Regional Liaison for the Sisterhood Is Global Institute about her op-ed in the Miami Herald, titled: While Roe v. Wade is under attack in the US, Latin American women are winning abortion rights. We’ll link to this op-ed in our show notes. Susana, thank you so much for being here.

Susana Chiarotti 05:15

It’s okay, I’m very glad to be here.

Coco Das 05:18

First, I’d like to get your take on events in this country. Both the draft opinion being leaked on Monday from Samuel Alito, and the outpouring of opposition that followed. What do you think is happening, and where do you think it might lead?

Susana Chiarotti 05:35

I think that what is happening in the US regarding abortion is a brutal lesson for feminists. That draft ruling, which I hope will be corrected, wants to take us back to medieval times. If it were to be approved it would have a negative influence on the courts of other countries all over the world. So the lesson it teaches us is that our rights never remain free. We must defend them day by day. We cannot take them for granted. Many young women today who were born with this right have no idea how much it cost to obtain, nor of the serious consequences of losing it. Clandestine and unsafe abortions, increased maternal mortality, etc. 

This is because abortions will continue to be performed, whether they are legal or illegal. Behind the judge that drafted this sentence, there are powerful and coordinated attempts to rollback hard won sexual and reproductive rights, not only in Latin America, but around the world. It is not just these judges, there is a whole movement behind it. They have a well funded international network. They have worldwide lawyers trained by international conservative groups to litigate or lobby against women’s rights. And these groups not only outline a detailed agenda to end the constitutional right to abortion in the United States, but continue to confront the rights of women around the world.

Coco Das 06:59

I really appreciate your giving a global perspective on the impact of this ruling, if it is allowed to go through — which, you know, people flooded the streets, and I think if we stay in the streets, the most important thing right now is to keep this draft from becoming law. I thought about what impact that would have on people in this country, but I didn’t really think about how this would actually empower and give further fuel to these, what I call fascist attacks on the right to abortion all over the world. So I really appreciate you bringing us to that. 

Recently, we spoke to Marcela Garcia, who had written a piece for the Boston Globe about the Green Tide, or the Green Wave in Latin America. She told us a lot about what has happened in Colombia, Mexico and Argentina, but your article actually mentions that rules are being relaxed in other countries as well. Could you tell us what is going on in some of these other countries? For example, you mentioned Ecuador and Chile, and maybe talk a little bit about the region as a whole and some of these other countries.

Susan Chiarotti 08:08

Yeah, you know, luckily, in five years, the situation changed. Today 37% of the population of Latin American and the Caribbean, amounting to 652 million people, live in countries where women have won the right to legal abortion or not to be imprisoned for having an abortion. Also, including Cuba, Oceania, and Puerto Rico. Five years ago, the proportion was less than 3%. 

In Chile, abortion was totally banned by the dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet, and only since 2017, has been permitted in cases of rape, fetal non-viability and risk of the woman’s life. But now, the Chile Constitutional Convention, which is drafting a new Carta Magna, approved by a large majority, an article that enshrines sexual and reproductive rights as fundamental and guaranteed by the state. These rights include abortion. The article establishes — sorry, but I’m a lawyer and I give a lot of importance to them. It will be great if they approve, finally. The article establishes that all persons are entitled to sexual and reproductive rights, which includes among others, the right to decide freely, autonomously, and in an informed manner about one’s own body, about the exercise of sexuality, reproduction, pleasure and contraception. 

Furthermore, it adds that the state shall guarantee the exercise of these rights. So, that would mean that poor women can also have this right free. And they say without discrimination with a focus on gender inclusion and cultural relevance, and ensuring all women and person with the capacity to sustain the condition for a pregnancy, a voluntary interruption of pregnancy, voluntary and protected childbirth or maternity. So if the new constitution is approved by popular vote in September, Chile could become the first country in the world to give constitutional status to abortion rights. And in Ecuador where parliament approved abortion in cases of rape, President Guillermo Lasso partially vetoed the law. 

Nevertheless, it was a little advanced because the veto was partial, not total. And in Brazil — that is the most populated country with to some 212 million inhabitants — there could be changes if former President Lula da Silva assumes the presidency after the October elections, since he has publicly said that he agrees with legalizing abortion. There, it is only allowed now to interrupt the pregnancy in cases of rape, health risk for the woman or anencephaly of the fetus, and the practice is hindered by Jair Bolsonaro’s own ultra-right government, which mobilizes groups of fanatics to harass women and providers.

Coco Das 10:59

Has the green wave also spread to these countries, or movement in the streets in these countries, including Brazil?

Susana Chiarotti 11:07

Yes. There is a massive, massive movement.

Coco Das 11:11

What can you tell us about El Salvador, because I’ve been hearing a little bit about El Salvador. My understanding is that women there are being jailed for miscarriages, but that this Green Wave is also starting there. Can you give us a sense of how things are going in El Salvador.

Susana Chiarotti 11:27

In El Salvador women can face sentences of up to 50 years for miscarriage or stillbirth. Women here have been demanding the right to abortion for decades, but the demands intensified after 1998, when abortion was banned without any exception. The green wave gave them more strength, but that does not mean that the struggle of Salvadoran women began with the green tide. What is happening there is women who have had miscarriages and were left out, woke up in handcuffs in the hospital and were taken then to jail, as in the Manuela case, which has just been [inaudible] of the American court. 

Manuela was a rural woman of limited economic resources, illiterate, living with her family, and in February 2008 Manuela was pregnant. On February 27, 2008, she suffered anesthetic emergency and was treated at the San Francisco Gotera hospital. The medical staff concluded that Manuela had severe postpartum preeclampsia plus anemia due to significant blood loss. And the doctor who attended to her finally complained against Manuela because her medical chart showed that she had given birth and to worry she would not have a problem. The court indicated that her case was analyzed in a biased manner with gender stereotypes, and that this was only possible because Manuela was a woman of limited economic resources, illiterate and living in a rural area. Of course, the court ordered various measures of reparation to the state. So there are now high expectations that with this ruling, at least abortion to save the life of the mother and in cases of rape will be authorized. All social organizations are pushing for this.

Coco Das 13:14

It’s a horrifying situation. I’m interested in this quote that is in your piece. You wrote: “Feminist leaders were joined by thousands of young people debating in all manner of spaces the right to bodily autonomy.” Can you describe that a little bit? What do you mean by all manner of spaces? What did that look like? How are these debates manifesting in society?

Susana Chiarotti 13:37

Women in Argentina, they campaigned for the right to legal, safe and free abortion and marriage at the national women’s meeting, attended by women of all ages; thousands of women, including girls and adolescents. And little by little commission in support of the campaign were organizing education in these places; first in universities, then in high school. One of the activities, which was replicated throughout the country, was the green [?]. It was held in the main squares of the country, cities and towns, and included debates, workshops, and [?] and the young women and girls who gradually joined the campaign went there. 

Later, networks of these students were created as well as networks of women lawyers, professionals, nuns and theologian, university professors, women trade unionists, women politicians, and so on. Elementary school girls, because also the debate was on the media, little girls asked their teachers to explain to them what abortion was. I have an anecdote of a very conservative anti-abortion lawyer who was criticized by her daughter who is in the last grade of elementary school. She told her, Mom: You can’t be so conservative, women have to have the right to manage their own bodies. And the girl made the mother change. She began to think differently, at least to put the question in this issue, she was so sure of. 

The last time there were more than 300 organizations that were in the campaign. So it is not surprising that when it came to organizing the street activity thousands of young people carried the banners. Even in secondary school, they organized gender collectives, and they asked the boys to organize deconstructive masculinity collectives. So interesting. I have a lot of anecdotes of that, but it will be very long. But it was a very, very interesting move. And all these people, girls and boys and went to the streets when we mobilized.

Coco Das 15:43

I think it’s so important, because part of why we’re in this situation in this country is because of the terms of the debate were set and seized by the anti-abortion movement for so long. Where you have the Democratic Party here, like barely saying the word abortion. So the anti-abortion movement, this Christian fascist, so-called pro-life movement, seized and dominated the public square and the public debate. It is really time now to take inspiration from what they did in Latin America and take back the public square and the public debate here. 

I’m really interested in this other thing that you wrote about, where you said that there was the green for abortion and the light blue representing the anti-abortion opposition in Argentina. But that virtually disappeared, the light blue movement disappeared in Argentina after the law passed. I have some idea of how or why that might have happened, but I wanted to ask, what do you attribute that to? What happened to that opposition in Argentina? And on the flip side of that, what is the danger that still lies ahead, even though they’ve won this great victory in Argentina?

Susana Chiarotti 16:57

Well, you’re right to be on alert. You are very right to be on alert, because the political artifacts created by the opposition to confront the campaign were discarded like used furniture when the abortion law was passed. That is research done by the University of Rosario that shows that the pro-life party, for example, was composed of only one married couple and ceased to exist after the law was passed. The same with other organizations. But the fact that these tools are no longer there does not mean that those who use them have disappeared. Right-wing fundamentalists are always on the alert, preparing new strategies. They are connected, they have funds, and every day they generate new obstacles to the exercise of the right conduct. They have connections with the US and Europe and many funds.

One of the strategies is to place the right people in parliaments and courts. It is a medium and long term strategy, but it pays off, as can be seen in the US. They also have a political vocation. In Argentina, fundamentalist evangelicals set up an office in Buenos Aires in front of the National Congress and every day these senators and deputies invite them to pray with them and bring them bills. So, you know, they continue working very much. And what will happen in the US will influence a lot, their activities.

Coco Das 18:23

That’s a really good point. Even when they’re driven back, they do regroup, and they can regroup very quickly, especially when there’s so much power and money behind them. I wanted to read another quote. First of all, I want to thank you for being with me today. You have such a wealth of knowledge and I feel like I could listen to you for hours.

You also wrote this and I think it’s a really, really important point: “As conservative fundamentalism spreads globally, the green tide movement is a call to feminists everywhere, but especially to those in the United States. Only through collective action can we reclaim bodily autonomy as women burdened by a patriarchal system. Solidarity between Latin American feminists and our sisters to the North means sharing knowledge.” This might seem like a basic question to end with, but I actually think that people need more of an understanding of this and it’s worth digging into here. Why is collective action so important to this fight?

Susana Chiarotti 19:22

I think that when you have a right for many decades, you take it for granted. It seems to you that you will never lose it, and if you don’t have to demand it, you don’t organize, you don’t claim it. The feminist movement takes a break, you know, probably a long break. Now, if women in the US do not mobilize in the street by the thousands, they will not be able to reverse the sentence of the court. It is also necessary that the human rights movements and other social organizations and the progressive media join this demand, and there is a generalized clamor not to go backwards.

Because it is not only women who will have it but society as a whole. Democracy is weakened if the rights of half of the population are restricted, if women are forced to live their bodies as a prison. Therefore, the entire population must unite in the claim. It is not just a women’s issue, not even a US women’s issue. What affects one affects us all. These are collective problems that might be solved with collective movements. You know, we have a successful experiences of “me too” and neu no menos, not one left, and others like it. These movements show that only collectively will we be able to move forward. In fact, “me too” scared the patriarchy, who began to accuse us of being nasty feminists. And what they used to say: The dogs bark and shows the sign that we’re right.

Coco Das 20:48

So well put, thank you so much for the work that you’re doing. How can we follow what you’re doing and where you’re writing? Where should we look to see more about this work and to follow you?

Susana Chiarotti 21:00

I teach at the University and have some conferences or participate in media presentation. That’s all we do.

Coco Das 21:08

Well, we will definitely keep our eye on what you’re putting out, we’ll continue to follow what’s happening in Latin America, and we will continue to be in the streets here and to keep growing this network of people throughout society who need to weigh in on this question and take a stand, because right now people sitting on the sidelines are going to allow this decision to go through when we have a chance to stop it. We have a very short window of time to activate the thousands and millions who need to speak to this and be in the streets and take collective action with us. I think they’ll learn a lot and our listeners will learn a lot from the knowledge you’ve given us today. Thank you so much, Susana.

Anna Hunt 21:53

I came here because I’m a 15-year-old girl. I came here because I’m hoping to not allow these government officials who think they have control over my body to do what they’re doing and take us back 50 years of fighting.

Sunsara Taylor 22:08

I want to say you all are so beautiful out here. On Monday night we all heard the news that the Supreme Court leaked a decision, a draft decision, saying that they are on track with the majority on the Supreme Court voted back in February in an early vote that they were going to overturn Roe vs. Wade, that they were going to decimate women’s fundamental right to abortion. [loud jeers] That’s right. Fuck that. This would be an atrocity. This would be an atrocity. Forcing women to have children against their will is barbaric. [Loud cheer] It is a form of enslavement. 

When women are forced to have children against their will, when they are denied the right to abortion, this shatters lives. This forcloses dreams. This drives women into poverty or deeper into poverty. This traps women in abuse. It forces young girls and women to drop out of school, to lose their jobs. [cheers] It is this state telling women that they are less than fully human. Will we accept this sisters and brothers and beautiful people? [crowd: no!] Now I want to stress, this is a draft decision. This is not yet law. In Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights, there are women having rallies. Some of the young people you heard from have been helping organize these rallies, walking out. We saw this coming, but most of this country did not know, and so they were silent and they were not with us in the streets.

But since Monday night, this has been in the headlines. This has dominated. Everybody knows. So now is the time when everybody knows and this is not yet the law for us to rise up and stop this from becoming a law. [cheers] Now is the time to stop the Supreme Court from decimating abortion rights. Now is the time. And I don’t want to hear any more bullshit, and you shouldn’t accept it either. Where people say — including some of the people who are speaking out against this — say: Oh, we’ll hold them accountable in November after this law, after this right has been taken away. [jeers] That’s right, it is far easier, it is far easier to defend our right while you still have it than to win it back after it has been taken. [cheer]

Sunsara Taylor 22:08

And let’s be real about these elections. They were never on the side of the people and right now the GOP, the Republicans, is a fully fascist party. [cheer] They are suppressing votes. They are gerrymandering. They have replaced election officials and they have proven their willingness to use violence to overturn elections they lose. So let’s not have illusions that we will win this back if we let it be taken now. [cheers] And I don’t want to hear an more bullshit, and you shouldn’t either, about how we should just prepare to help women learning how to induce their own abortions or help them travel, jobs or states, after Roe is overturned. No, we have to stop this from being overturned. We need to stop it now. [cheer] So let me hear you answer me. I’m gonna say: “Prepare for post Roe?” And I want you to say: “Fuck, no.” [leads statement and response] We need to stop this now. [cheer]

Sunsara Taylor 26:52

I want to talk about how we do that, beautiful people. A big part of how we do that is what you have done today. We walk out of school. We walk off the job. We take over the freeways. We shut this country down. [cheer]

Sunsara Taylor 27:06

Not for one day of symbolic feel good venting, where then we go back to our regular lives and let this nightmare descend. No, we need to do this relentlessly. Again and again. There should be no business as usual when that business is on track to enslave, to subjugate, to brutalize and control women. Hell, no! [cheer] This is why we wear this green bandana. This is the symbol of abortion rights. Of fierce, struggle inthe streets. This is the symbol that was popularized by women in Argentina. [cheer] Taken up by women in Colombia. [cheer] Spread across Latin America, and around the world. These are deeply Catholic countries. Very patriarchal. Very repressive. Places where abortion has been criminalized for generations. Places where women were sent to prison for miscarriages. Places where women died and had their lives foreclosed by forced motherhood.

But the women there rose up and they kept coming back, and they kept coming back, and they kept coming back [cheer] until they made what everybody thought was impossible a reality. They decriminalized abortion in Argentina. [cheers build] They decriminalized abortion in Colombia. And don’t let anybody tell you that it is too late to stop these fascists on the Court from decimating Roe vs. Wade. [cheer]

Sunsara Taylor 27:35

Bob Avakian, the revolutionary leader I follow, has a quote: “The politics of the possible is the politics of monstrosity.” If we accept what everybody says is all that’s possible, you have to accept the Supreme Court ruling, because we are not on the court. You have to wait. You have to do just what the rulers and their political channels tell us we can do. If we accept that, we are accepting monstrosity. And in contrast, we need to change what’s possible through our struggle in the streets. [cheer]

I want to talk very concretely about how we do this. Next week, starting this weekend, rolling through the week, Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights. has called for a week of action. A week of resistance. A week of raising hell, where everybody has to show which side they’re on. And you are either in the streets, you are either walking out, you are either shutting down, you are either rising up, or you are saying you are okay with female enslavement. [cheer]. There is no neutral. And it is the unbridled fury of millions and millions of women across this country that needs to be woken up, [cheer] and flood these streets, millions and millions of women and girls rising up in fury against thousands and thousands of years of patriarchal chains and degradation. [cheer] The brutality, the insult, the rape, the sexual assault, the street harassment [cheer], the pimping out, the degradation. [cheers continue] All the ways that women for generations and generations have been treated as less than and property of men and baby making machines and told that you’re worth is in your virginity. And told to be ashamed of your body, and your desires and your sexuality and differently-gendered people. All of this fury that has been suppressed, that has been suffocated needs to come out in the streets right the fuck now! [enormous cheer] We must not go back! We must not go back! [responsive chant]

Sunsara Taylor 27:35

I want to say that you have the power. Young people have been in the forefront of every major movement for social change. Now is the time to put it all on the line. And in this fight we need everybody, different backgrounds, different genders, different nationalities, different outlooks, [cheer] different ages. We need unite all who can possibly be united, all of us together to draw a line. You’re either for stopping this Supreme Court from enslaving women and decimating abortion rights or you are on the wrong side. [cheer]

Sunsara Taylor 32:55

So if you are feeling me on that, I want to invite you to check out the Revolution Nothing Less show, the YouTube show I co-host. We have our 100th episode coming out tonight @youtube.com/TheRevcoms., so come and learn about it. But as we do, we need to stand shoulder to shoulder with people, again, uniting all who can possibly be united to stop the Supreme Court, and make clear that if they try to take this right away, if they try to enslave women, if they try to go forward with this, their society will be prevented from functioning at all.

Sunsara Taylor 33:55

So let me hear you one more time. You are so beautiful. Let me hear you one more time. Prepare for post Roe? [crowd responds: Fuck no.]

Sunsara Taylor 34:07

Put your fist in the air, I want to close out with this. Repeat after me, I will fight for women. [crowd repeats] I will fight for women.

Sunsara Taylor 34:32

Without this basic right women can’t be free. Abortion on demand and without apology. [crowd repeats in parts, then in full.]

Coco Das 35:11

That was Anna Hunt, a 15 year old student who participated in a school walkout this past Thursday and Sunsara Taylor speaking to students who walked out in New York City. The leak of the Samuel Alito draft, wherever it came from, has turned out to be a gift we must not squander. Now is the time to seize. Tell everyone you know about the movement RiseUp4AbortionRights.org and sign up to resist so we can stop the Supreme Court from taking away the right to abortion.

Thanks for listening to the Refuse Fascism podcast. We want to hear from you. Share your thoughts, questions, ideas for topics or guests, or lend a skill. Tweet me @Coco_Das or our regular host @SamB Goldman, or you can drop her a line at [email protected]. You can leave a voicemail by calling 917-426-7582. You can also record a voice message by going to anchor.fm/RefuseFascism and clicking the button there. 

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