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It’s just a few weeks into the hellscape that is a post-Roe United States… Sam and Mark chat about just a few of the stories that have come out in recent weeks illustrating the growing catastrophe. Donate to support the Indiana doctor currently under fire from fascist forces for providing abortion care to a 10 year old rape victim who traveled from Ohio here.

Episode 119 Refuse Fascism

Mark Tinkleman:

Welcome to Episode 119 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Mark Tinkleman, one of those volunteers and a co-producer of this show, and today’s guest host Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States.

Thanks to everyone who goes the extra step and rates and reviews on Apple podcasts, shares and comments on social media or YouTube. It helps us reach more listeners, and we read every single one. Here are two such reviews over on Twitter from this past week. On Twitter, @ThomasSwords shares: “Excellent episode with the appropriately alarmed Thomas Lecaque.” @AfterDaylight tweeted: “Buoyingly passionate and well-informed insights on the current fascist moment from a medievalist (yep!) and his lovely host, via @RefuseFascism @SamBGoldman & @tlecaque”.

So after listening, go help us find more people who want to Refuse Fascism by rating and reviewing on Apple podcast or your listening platform of choice and encouraging your friends and family who listen to do the same. And, of course, continue all that sharing and commenting on social media. We’re gonna get right into it today, switching the seats and interviewing Sam Goldman, who you’ve probably seen — if you’ve watched any national news over the past few weeks — leading protests out front of the Supreme Court. She’s the co-initiator of Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights, and yeah, that’s the usual host of this show. So welcome, Sam.

Sam Goldman: Welcome, me.

Mark Tinkleman: Yes, I know. It’s a weird one, right?

Sam Goldman: Yep. Sorry about that, guys. I’m not used to being in the seat, even if it’s the same actual seat. [MT: Yes.] It’s good to be having this conversation.

Let’s start with the still unpunished coup attempt. This past Tuesday, on day seven of the January 6 hearings centered on the links between Trump and militia, or far-right extremists, as they call them, that were the foot soldiers of the violent efforts to stop the transition of power and keep the whole fascist regime in office, despite their election loss. It delved into things you’ve covered on the show, from Trump’s call-to-arms tweet to the December 18th meeting. What were the key takeaways or lessons from this session of the hearings?

I would first start with the summoning of the mob — the calling forth of these fascist storm troopers that stormed the Capitol in particular — is something we have delved into before January 6th. It wasn’t limited to one tweet, or one comment or one instance. I really want to highlight a couple episodes. One was December 13th 2021, it was just commentary from myself, titled Fight for Trump Equals Fight for Fascism, so you can give that a listen. Our December 27th, 202 show, If It Could Happen There, It Could Happen Here also delves into this. And very importantly, our episode on January 3rd, 2021 we uploaded an episode featuring an interview with Eric Boehlert — rest in peace, since he’s passed away — regarding Trump plotting martial law from the White House and the press shrugging. I encourage people to to listen to those. They were all before January 6th, and they were part of ongoing in depth coverage and analysis that we did on the show regarding what was a coup attempt that was ongoing for months.

But back to your question, what were the takeaways from this latest hearing? Let’s start with the Cipollone testimony, because I think that that gets to the heart of a lot of things. It talked about this December 18th meeting that happened in the White House. It was a meeting in which there were White House aides like Cipollone and Eric Hirshman, joined by outside advisers, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, Michael Flynn, and you have the Giulianis, Sydney Powells and Michael Flynns encouraging Trump to seize voting machines and appoint Powell as a special counsel to investigate totally unsubstantiated voter fraud claims.

It’s really about details of that explosive meeting that he shared in his testimony. That was one thing. People like to talk about this crazy Oval Office battle between — was it Cheney who said — “Team Sane” and “Team Crazy”, with some of the White House advisors being like Team Sane, and saying: No, you cannot do that. And the Sidney Powells and Michael Flynns being like: No, you can, you must, we will! I think it was Mary Trump who so rightly pointed out that the opposition to Team Crazy was not Team Sane, it was “Team Complicit.”

It was just different methods to how they wanted to play that out. They had come armed to this meeting with draft executive orders they wanted Trump to sign, that, if he signed, would have used the Defense Department to seize voting machines to try to prove baseless claims of election fraud. Totally insane, right, but also totally happened. This was a real conversation that happened. Shortly after the meeting, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. I don’t know if I’m saying his name right. I think I’ve said it wrong every time. It’s C-i-p-o-l-l-o-n-e

Mark Tinklemen: I liked that we say Cipollone because I just picture him as a tiny onion.

Sam Goldman: I really apologize. I butchered his name every time so far. Cipollone [MT corrects pronunciation] What he said. He did not believe that the election was stolen, and he had been pushing Trump to concede. He rushed into the Oval Office to stop this meeting; to stop it from being signed. In his videotaped testimony that was shared, he said, “I opened the door and walked in. I saw General Flynn. I saw Sidney Powell sitting there. I was not happy to see the people who were in the Oval Office.” That was one of the clips that was shared this past Tuesday.

It was apparently one of the most contentious meetings between this face off with the lawyers, including Eric Hirschman, against the Powell-Flynn-Burn camp. When this fun thing ended, based on pressure from White House lawyers, Trump decided to not go along with the plan of using military or other federal agencies to seize voting machines, and hours later, he went to the Twitter to post his call to his supporters to come to Washington on January 6th. The other notable aspects in terms of important information was Giuliani’s legal team admitting they didn’t have evidence of widespread voter fraud. [MT: Right]

The committee showed evidence that Trump’s plan to march to the Capitol was widely known before his speech on January 6th. I found that to be important information. [MT: mmhmm] They showed that there were extensive plans that were were previously known from Trump and his supporters to go to the Capitol on January 6th. One of the things worth noting is documents that were obtained by the Committee which showed that there was a tweet drafted for Trump, which he saw, that calls on his supporters to march to the Capitol after his address, and that would have read, “Making a big speech at 10am January 6th outside the White House, please arrive early, massive crowds expected, march to the Capitol after. Stop the Steal!!” The tweet was never sent, but this is just one piece of evidence in a litany in the days leading up to January 6th that Trump and his whole fascist group of cronies, or whatever you would call them, had plans for him, including messages from My Pillow man, Michael J. Lindell, talking to organizers about getting a second stage set up in front of the Supreme Court. Kiley Kraemer said: We can’t set up the stage by the Supreme Court, we need to do it somewhere else. We’ll get in trouble with this or that — logistical back and forth — right-wing activists based on text messages — that’s such a misnomer — fascist activists believed that Trump was going to be joining them.

Ali Alexander had messages that read: “Trump is supposed to order us to the Capitol at the end of his speech, but we will see.” He led the Stop the Steal campaign. Even a photographer was cited in the deposition — a photographer for the White House. He was present at an Oval Office meeting on January 5th, and he could hear that we should go to the Capitol, what’s the best route to the Capitol? He could hear people talking about that. So, there’s the insane Oval Office meeting regarding seizure of voting machines. There’s the evidence showing plans to go to the Capitol prior to January 6th. There’s the legal team didn’t have evidence of widespread fraud. There was Trump and Bannon speaking on January 5th; that evidence was shared.

Then, important to note here, was that at the end of the hearing, Liz Cheney, in her closing remarks, saying that since the last time we talked and did a hearing, Trump tried to call a witness who hasn’t appeared publicly before the committee. This person said “No thanks” to Trump and didn’t pick up the call, and told the lawyers, who told the committee, who told the Justice Department, and [Cheney] was saying: we’re gonna continue to take any efforts to influence witnesses testimony very seriously. So, there was a lot there.

There were also things that were known already that were covered. In particular, Trump associates communicated with violent extremist groups in the lead-up; talking about Roger Stone and Flynn. Those things were known about prior [to the hearing]. The Oath Keepers and Proud Boys also gave testimonies and talked about how they were influenced and marshaled towards violence, but those weren’t new information. That was that hearing. Since that hearing — this is rich — there’s a whole fight with the Secret Service, CNN reported. The hearing was on Tuesday, then on Thursday, a Washington police officer that was part of the motorcade with the Secret Service corroborated details that had come up earlier this month, related to what people have called explosive House Select Committee public testimony earlier this month, that was about Trump attacking the Secret Service driver.

At the same time, the Secret Service came under new scrutiny because they deleted agency text messages [from] January 5th and January 6th, right around the time of what’s being requested. So on Friday, July 15, the Committee issued a subpoena to the Secret Service asking for those text messages. So we shall see. While there is lots of movement, the movement that we have not seen and need to see is that movement from Trump to jail, or you know, even a charge of anything. The next hearing will be Thursday, July 21st. It’s a primetime showing at 8:00 pm, and I know, we’ll have more to say next week.

Mark Tinkleman:
There’s so much coming out of each of these hearings, and it is seemingly having an impact on public opinion, especially with the midterms coming up and the fact that this could all vanish if they lose the House. How is this going to play out? You said it, the movement that needs to happen is Trump moving into a jail cell, and not just in a symbolic way either, this needs to be treated for what it is. So shifting gears to the overturn of abortion rights, I wanted to get your thoughts on the vicious campaign that’s been all over the news against Dr. Caitlin Barnard, the doctor who performed an abortion for a 10-year-old girl who was impregnated through rape in Ohio.

Sam Goldman:
So in the three weeks — right, it’s been three weeks since the overturning of Roe — We have seen so many stories that would be worth getting into in depth. From Montana Planned Parenthood preemptively, out of fear of criminalization, saying that they will not provide abortion services to people out of state, to the realities that this is impacting cancer treatment, lupus treatment — in terms of people getting their medications — being denied care people bleeding out, people not getting care for ectopic pregnancies, or having to go to different hospitals because they’re being denied care. The mass confusion of where access is and where it isn’t.

There are so many stories to get into that deserve to be told over the hellscape that is post Roe, but I think that it’s really important to talk about the case of Dr. Caitlin Barnard, because it is a chilling reality check for what this new post-Roe USA looks like in its viciousness and in the danger that it holds. There has been a whole campaign which, if you watch the news, if you’re on social media, you’ve known about. This name that has now become a household name. Why? You know, why is this Indiana obstetrician/gynecologist a household name for performing an abortion on a 10-year-old girl? This child was impregnated, after being raped, and this whole case is a harbinger of what’s to come. Both the fact that this child could not get abortion care in her state, and that the doctor who provided that care was vilified.

This is where they’re going, and this is not okay. Let me back up. Three days after the overturning of Roe, a doctor in Ohio contacted Dr. Barnard to to let her know that a 10-year-old patient was six weeks and three days pregnant, and could not receive necessary abortion care. Well, why couldn’t that happen in Ohio? It couldn’t happen in Ohio because of those three days, Ohio had banned abortion at six weeks, and because she was three days over, she could not get abortion care. Ohio has no exemption, including for child rape — disgusting.

So the child, 10-year-old, was forced to drive several hours (obviously, she didn’t drive, you know what I mean) to Indiana, where Dr. Barnard thankfully provided this care, and, as you do, reported the case to the police and Indiana authorities, because it’s what you do with rape. Dr. Barnard also informed the Indianapolis Star about the 10-year-old’s abortion in a way that didn’t violate her privacy. She did this because the alarm needed to be sounded that a child could not get access to abortion care and had to go to another state, and this doctor was filled with the right feeling of fear that had it been a few weeks later, she might not be able to provide that care to this patient, because Indiana may be the next one that outlaws it at that time. After she does this, the newspaper published the story July 1st. Biden mentioned it in a press conference on July 8th, to talk about how outrageous this moment is. And the Christian fascists in this country — their heads explode and they go on a vicious offensive. As you know, they did feel free to jump in at any point. At that point, there’s no arrests. But on July 14, a 27-year old dude was arrested in Columbus, Ohio. According to police he confessed to having raped the girl at least twice. But what was the GOP doing? Well, the Republican party claimed that the incident was made up. Fox News declared the story was “BS.” Former Trump aide Kellyanne Conway appeared on the network to declare the story was false and “too rich to verify.” This is what they’re saying about a 10 year old girl who was raped and needed abortion care, and could not get it, was denied because of their rules, because of their laws.

Fox News host Jesse Watters suggested her story was a “hoax.” The National Review put out a story calling it “a fictive abortion and a fictive rape.” Ohio Attorney General Dave Yost went so far as to call the girl’s experience into question in multiple interviews, saying he hadn’t heard a whisper of the rape anywhere, and that it was likely a fabrication. What I find even in some ways more outright disturbing than the fascist press churning up this, which is outrageous, is the so-called mainstream media in this country.

The Wall Street Journal wrote an editorial board statement on July 13. That means like a bunch of people thought this is a good idea: “We should put our names to it as a paper.” They declared in the headline, Mark, “An abortion story too good to confirm,” making me want to vomit. It attacks Biden for promoting political fanciful tales, fanciful tales of childhood rape, and the inability to access abortion care, saying that there’s no evidence that the girl exists. It went on to attack the doctor by name, saying she lied for personal political gain. It read “You may not be surprised to learn that Dr. Barnard has a long history of abortion activism in the media.”

This is one of the parts that I responded to because these people really think that in this instance, this doctor has something to gain from doing this. That blows my mind. They’ll put it out there as just this fact, just because that’s all that they do is only for their own gain.

Mark Tinkleman:

Yeah, The Washington Post argued that “It would have more solid ground” if the rape was confirmed by law enforcement and other publications around the country demanded that Biden verify the girl’s story. And I forgot about this: The Washington Post article by Glenn Kessler attacked the Indianapolis Star for running the article in the first place, calling out that it relied on the one source of the doctor. They implied that the doctor was less than forthright in that she didn’t — rightly so — identify the city where the child was located. That would be a violation.

Sam Goldman
So following this or not in direct sequence, the Indiana State Attorney General Todd Rokita — you might have heard about this MAGA AG — went so far as to saying he’s investigating Dr. Barnard, and will criminally prosecute her. He called her “this activist, acting as a doctor,” made totally libelous claims that she failed to report the incident. When it became clear that she did report the incident, he continued to demonize her and said he was looking to revoke her medical license, even though this was totally baseless and there is no proof. As a result, Dr. Barnard has faced threats of physical violence from these fascists.

I want to read an excerpt of an article that I really, really recommend that people check out. It will be in the show notes. It’s an essay from Jessica Valenti from her Substack. It is a glimpse into what we can expect in a post-Roe America: real-life suffering shrugged off as rumor or political fodder, and the picking apart of any experience that might make abortion bans look bad. She goes on to say later in the article, “So we know what will happen now. Whenever a child is raped, a woman dies or someone is arrested for a miscarriage, conservatives will deny any of it is happening, they will try to gaslight us into submission. If that doesn’t work, we’ll go on the attack. Those who dare to shine a light on the horrors of abortion bans will be targeted. Right now. For example, conservative media is focusing on the provider who gave the 10-year-old an abortion posting her picture on Fox News and calling for her lesson Zero.”

None of this is new. But this is about to get a lot more awful. That’s why Dr. George Tiller [the abortion provider assassinated by an anti-abortionist in 2009] called on us to trust women, because someone has to. So I thought that was indicative of the moment we’re in and the stories that need to actually be talked about. I recommend that people read a guest essay published by The New York Times July 15, titled “Dr. Caitlin Barnard was meant to write this with me before she was attacked for doing her job.” It’s an incredibly moving piece by Dr. Wilkinson, who’s an Assistant Professor of Pediatrics at Community Medicine. It’s linked in the show notes.

Mark Tinkleman:

Two more angles on this, one of which is that it was denied by a lot of these fascists. And there was also the end, some of the Congress people and also some of the people deeper within the movement who believe that when a 10-year-old is assaulted and becomes pregnant, that is a gift from God. They say these things out loud. I don’t remember the Congress person’s name, who actually said this out loud in this particular instance, but this is across this movement of Christian fascists.

And on the other hand, all these people saying this, especially the Wall Street Journal saying this is too good to be true. This is one story, but this isn’t an anomaly. I think the statistic came out that over 50 children in Ohio alone, every year are impregnated and need abortion services under the age of 15. Something like that. This is a) it’s horrific and b) the story is true. Even if the story is true, and it’s true, more than this one time. So three weeks after the overturning of Roe, are there any developments in terms of Democrats acting to restore abortion rights?

Sam Goldman:
I guess I’ll just talk about this week, because we talked about the executive order previously and the necessity that everyone including those in the Democratic Party take action given this is something that is ripping the normal workings apart. So this past week, it was more that things that already happened, or that are true, were reasserted. I’m not saying that those don’t matter and aren’t important. For instance, Biden telling pharmacists you need to fill prescriptions that doctors provide patients with. That shouldn’t have to be said. That kind of speaks to the moment that we’re in and the danger posed. Or that the US Department of Health and Human Services had to give clarified guidance or communication to make sure that pregnant women and others who can experience pregnancy have access to the full rights and protections of emergency medical care, which includes abortion services.

But if their life is on the line, federal law trumps local law and you give the abortion services. And no shocker: Texas is suing over this, literally making it clear that they do not care about women. The fact that there even needs to be, you can’t kill a woman, you have to give the woman medication that her doctor provides. The fact that’s the conversation being had, and that these are the only measures being put forward, show how bankrupt they are. Anyone who tells you that the best we can do is wait for November and vote No. So, the House Democrats did pass two bills Friday: the Women’s Health Protection Act of 2022 that would codify Roe v. Wade, and the ensuring Access to Abortion Act that would protect a patient’s right to travel for legal abortions. Again,

Mark Tinkleman:
No way to pass the Senate as is. No way that they’re gonna pass the Senate as things stand right now.

Sam Goldman: Correct. Also, it’s further exposure that we’re talking about a situation where there is a battle over seeking free states. And a battle over whether women and doctors and others can be hunted down by the not-free states. And if this doesn’t sound like pre-Civil War talk to you, go back, read your history. This is straight up what it is.

Mark Tinkleman: And I’m not the history books that were approved by the Texas State Board.

Sam Goldman:

People call it the Fugitive Uterus Act, fugitive woman’s act, whatever you want to call it. That is what it is. And a lot of attempts to change that are also attempts to keep the country together. Yeah, but as Mark, you said, it moves to the Senate, the Women’s Health Protection Act failed to advance there in May, and garnered only 49 votes instead of the 60 needed, and there’s no indication that there will be a different result.

That is another reason why we cannot rely on what we’re told as politics as usual right now. We face a fascist movement that will not relent and will not rest. They are going for a national abortion ban. They are going for contraception, they are going for gay marriage and gay sex. They’re going for it all. And the one force that continues to need to assert itself is the people in the streets in our millions, unrelenting, being un-ignorable and uncompromising in the demand that the federal government act now to restore legal abortion nationwide. There are things that legal scholars have talked about that are well within the executive branch and whatnot. That could happen right now. But none of that’s going to happen short of the people in the streets, demanding it and not stopping.

Mark Tinkleman:

In the wake of SCOTUS, eviscerating abortion rights, states across the country moved to restrict and criminalize abortion. There has been a series of scurrilous, libelous, dangerous hit pieces that have been published in The Daily Beast, the Intercept and The Daily Caller, attacking the one group that’s called people into the streets to demand legal abortion nationwide now. And they’ve been based largely on Twitter trolls and some self-proclaimed shit posters.

In particular, these attacks have been directed at Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights. That’s the one group, the only group, that before the Dobbs case came down, the decision, were mobilizing people to prevent Roe from being overturned and now are the only group right now calling for legal abortion nationwide now, that are mobilizing and geared towards making that happen.
And in particular, these attacks have been directed at revolutionaries who are part of or supportive of this movement.

From my perspective, this is greasing the wheels of fascism. And it’s not a coincidence that straight up fascists like Andy Ngo and Tucker Carlson’s Daily Caller are using the same kind of red-baiting and “people are saying” journalism, that the people who clearly think of themselves as progressive like Robert Mackey and the Intercept, the same kind of journalism that they are because it’s all straight. Gotta have J. Edgar Hoover’s playbook, like what’s your take on all this?

Sam Goldman:
Yeah, I really agree with your assessment, Mark. I want to underscore how dangerous these attacks are. One thing that I’ve been really thinking about a lot, and I hope, listeners, you do, too, is thinking about why these forces who’ve taken up this attack feel like they’ve got quash the only group that’s demanding legal abortion nationwide now. Ask yourself, why is the Intercept, why is the Daily Beast, why are they compelled at a time when they should and could be writing stories about the abortion rights emergency in this country, about women dying, and legitimate stories being written as well about Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights, responding to that?

I think it’s a really important question to ask: why? Why are they doing that? And who are they that’s doing that? What weaknesses are they seeing? Even from the perspective of the Democrats, right, those who align themselves with them? It’s risky, right, to have all these people thinking Democrats are not doing enough? Or, you know, to be questioning, why are the Democrats not doing it. So I think it’s really important that we keep our eyes open.

It’s really hard when you’re being attacked, or something that you support is being attacked, but to really keep your eyes on this larger objective situation. And that situation is a situation of still-rising fascism. And a Weimar, if you will, that really does not have a solution to even if you just want to look at this particular crisis, or the fascist movement overall, and the interests of the people, the vast majority in this country do not, accept this overturn. They don’t accept the enslavement of women, and they don’t think that they should sit back and wait. But they’re listening to people telling them that they need to swallow their rage and swallow their fury, and not dare to rise up and will criticize and slander those who are rising up to keep you from doing it. Don’t listen to them.

You know, I think we can say that there’s, especially amongst those 23 ragtag groups, if they even are groups that were the original shit-slingers, they didn’t mobilize people. I think they’re a little defensive about that, like “we can’t mobilize people,” and they’re worried where Rise Up could go and take this. And there are different reasons, I think, coming together right now, for people more tied to the Democratic Party and those tied to the so-called movement. And I think that they’re wary that their projects are going to be undercut, exposed, and that people might be looking to revolution at this time.

To be frank, I think that’s why so much of these attacks have centered on accusations of cult and name-calling around Bob Avakian, because people are afraid that at this moment where people are looking for solutions and answers, they may have their interest piqued about revolution, and they may think that they don’t want to accept what is intolerable. So those are just some of my thoughts. So I think in light of that, we really need people on the side of justice, on the side of humanity. We need to really be taking this time to really go on the counteroffensive around what the stakes are on abortion, and what the stakes are of an action versus action on what the stakes are within a larger fascist movement. I think we need to repudiate and be, I don’t know football, but first-string or whatever you will, and unapologetic about not supporting those but calling out anybody who screams “cult” at Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights.

But all of us should be looking at this metric of where people just scream “cult” as a way to shut people up and to disengage. And treat Sunsara, who’s been on the show several times and was part of leading Refuse Fascism for many years, as some kind of cult leader, as Bob Avakian, who I have cited on the show amongst citing many people, as “cult” leaders, and just using that term and screaming that term to shut people up and to silence people. To kill revolution or an even kill resistance in this case. No, there are people with legitimate political views that should be heard. That’s what those of us who are on the side of justice and against fascism, that’s what we should be saying.

We should be making it clear that we need big debate, big, honest debate. We need to air differences, including sharp differences regarding what we face and what we think the solutions need to be. I think that’s critical to a vibrant society. But that has nothing, nothing to do with slander, with baseless accusations and ad hominem attacks, and scare tactics — and that’s what these are.

You know, I started with this, but these attacks are dangerous. They’re particularly dangerous, because they could provide legal pretext for repression in a time of rising fascist danger. And related, it serves only to scare people away from taking necessary action at a time when their action is so desperately needed. You know, I think we gotta take a look at that history about where these kinds of attacks go, and what they’re about. how they have literally killed movements for positive change. Like people from the 1950s where McCarthyism meant that people were called out. And Mark, do you want to say something?

Mark Tinkleman:
They recruited people from all these social movements in the 1950 to enable the state to set the limits of our dreams of what we were demanding. They purged most of the leadership of the NAACP. They purged all these leading organizations, because there were scary communists in them. And, you know, a lot of times I think it’s posed as just about the individuals and the effect it had on their lives. It was horrible for many people, but it also really had a huge effect on the movements and even what people were allowed to think and believe.

Sam Goldman:

Yeah, thanks for that, Mark. You know, I noticed people putting in the responses on Twitter, “you would have made McCarthy proud. You would have made J. Edgar Hoover proud.” I think people need to know that in the 1960s this continued, and people were gunned down and it was paid for in blood. And yes, it isolated individuals who are trying to lead people for revolutionary or just big change. And there was a culture, as well as isolating individuals, it also was geared at crushing dissent overall, and that the chilling effect and the American paranoia of communists hiding behind every bush, all of that. And now we’re in a moment with unprecedented high stakes for the future.

If we only look at the battle around the rights and status of women, where right now women are being turned into second class citizens, you know, as theocracy accelerates on the state level. And then if we pull back the lens more, and we look at this ongoing coup that’s looming, and fascist clawing to regain levers of federal power. Every single one of these types of attacks play directly into the repressive hand and they do the dirty work of the state.

Like all of us who care about justice, who care about decency, from whatever perspective you’re coming from, all of us need to repudiate such attacks. If you have been misled and have fallen into spreading any of this red-baiting, cult paranoia, which is aimed at silencing dissent, you got to stop it, you got to retract it. You got to say I effed up big time, and tell everyone else who’s doing it to join you on the right side of history.

So I know I went on at length, but this is important and I am so glad that Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights is not relenting and is not bowing down to this but also takes these really dangerous attacks on full frontally. On Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights’ part, they have two statements that are up on their website. Their original statement was in response to attacks that happened on June 25, titled To Those Who Would Rather Lie, Slander and Attack Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights Than Unite All Who Can Be United Against This Fascist Assault, and a new piece. We need honest debate, not unprincipled attacks. get those different perspectives right from the source, unlike other people that are just telling things without going to the source, I who am not a journalist, I’m doing it.

Mark Tinkleman:
Thank you for that. There’s so much to be said about this situation. But the fact is that they are trying to flood the zone with this bullshit. They are taking a page out of Steve Bannon’s playbook so that you know to take our eye off the ball so that we have to deal with this bullshit instead of actually doing the work that needs to be done by all of us to Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights to get in the streets, to spread the green, to make this a society-wide question of what side you stand on. And finally win these abortion rights back. So, Thanks, Sam, so much for being a guest on your own show.

Sam Goldman: It was fun, as fun as talking about fascism.

Mark Tinkleman:
We want to hear from you, our listeners. So share your thoughts, questions, ideas for topics or guests or line to skill. Thanks, Anna, for sending your guest idea this week. Tweet Sam, @SamBGoldman. You can reach me @MarkNoodler. Or you can drop Sam a line at [email protected] or leave a voicemail by visiting anchor.fm/refused/fascism and hitting the Message button.

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Thanks to Richie Marini, Lina Thorne, and our guest, Sam Goldman, for helping produce this episode. Thanks to incredible volunteers. We have transcripts available for each episode, so be sure to visit RefuseFascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox each week. We’ll be back next Sunday. Until then, in the name of humanity, we refuse to accept a fascist America.

Post-Roe Reality Check & January 6 Hearing Update

Episode 119 Refuse Fascism

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