A Word From The Folks Calling Trump Fascist Since 2016

Refuse Fascism Episode 222 

Sun, Oct 20, 2024 6:21PM • 1:45:56

SPEAKERS

Annika Brockschmidt, Bradley Onishi, Dahlia Lithwick, Charlemagne the God, Walden Bello, Jeff Sharlet, Coco Das, Anthea Butler, Mark Tinkleman, Henry Giroux, Andy Zee, Jason Stanley, Thomas Zimmer, Randy Manner, Richie Marini, Tim Walz, Laura Coates, Jared Yates Sexton, Kamala Harris, Sam Goldman, Donald Trump, Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Michael Coard, Umair Haque, Anthony DiMaggio, Federico Finchelstein

Sam Goldman  00:22

Welcome to episode 222, of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States.Today, we are running an encore episode since the ban on using the ‘F’ word, ‘fascist,’ to describe the threat appears to be temporarily lifted, with leading Democrats losing their reluctance to talk about fascism now, we thought it would be apt to rebroadcast our 200th episode, a crash course on 21st century American fascism — compiling insights from 20 of the 185 guests we brought on to share their perspectives and expertise.

We thought it might be worthwhile for folks to hear from the people that haven’t simply been accurately naming it, but exposing why it must be named, analyzing what it means and where it is coming from, organizing resistance to it since well before our first episode, and laying out what must be done to confront this threat in a way that could end it. I want to invite everyone to a virtual forum taking place this upcoming Friday, October 25 at 6 p.m. Pacific and 9 p.m. Eastern time. The forum is titled: The 2024 elections. The future hangs in the balance. It is sponsored by the Refuse Fascism than the podcast and the RnL, Revolution, Nothing Less Show I’ll be hosting, and it will feature Paul Street and Andy Zee. We’ll be streaming on our social media platforms, @RefuseFascism, on YouTube, at Refuse_Fascism.

Help us reach more listeners at a time when refusing fascism is needed more than ever. After you listen to the show today, be sure to share it with others. You can click the share button in your app to send this episode to a friend or ten, or let the world know why you listen by rating and reviewing on Apple Podcasts or your listening platform of choice. To give you an example of someone who did just that, I want to share a recent review that was posted on Apple Podcasts from Alex_. They reviewed the show earlier this month, titled their review Excellent Analysis, gave us five stars — Thank you — and wrote: “This is one of my top go to podcasts for keeping abreast of far right developments in the U.S. Thanks to everyone at Refuse Fascism for your work.” Well, thank you, Alex_, and I hope that you’ll be inspired to share your thoughts on the show and help grow this audience at a time where we really need to grow.

You can also wear the imperative by donning a Refuse Fascism t-shirt that kicks off conversations and kicks in to making this all volunteer, independent weekly podcast possible — see the show notes to get yours today. Thanks, of course, to the patrons who make the show possible. Shout out to Patricia W. for becoming a production level patron to support the show. Become a patron for as little as $2 a month. Do so over at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism.

Sam Goldman  03:38

Last weekend, the public learned that retired General Mark Milley, who served as Trump’s handpicked Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff, warned that Trump is “fascist to the core,” and “the most dangerous person to this country,” in new comments that sound the alarm at the prospect of Trump returning to power, according to a forthcoming book by Washington Post Associate Editor Bob Woodward, Jamelle Bouie, writing for The New York Times, underscored the significance of these statements. Writing: “It is simply extraordinary the nation’s top general would tell anyone, much less, one of the most famous reporters in the world, that the former president of the United States was a fascist, a fascist to the core even, and a threat to the constitutional order.” Bouie went on to write: “There is no precedent for such a thing in American history. No example of another time when a high ranking leader of the nation’s armed forces felt compelled to warn the public of the danger posed by its once and perhaps future chief executive.” Since then, Harris said this on Charlemagne the gods radio show: 

Kamala Harris  04:51

It’s two very different visions for our nation: One mind that is about taking us forward and progress and investing the American people in, investing in their ambitions, dealing with their challenges, and the other, Donald Trump, is about taking us backward.

Charlemagne the God  05:06

The other is about fascism. Why can’t we just say it? 

Kamala Harris  05:10

Yes, we can say that.

Sam Goldman  05:12

Now, Democratic leaders have frequently used Milley statements in rallies, using Milley as proxy and buffer to utter the words ‘fascist’, listen here:

Kamala Harris  05:23

Consider the comments that he made just in the last few days, because he just he’s got more. He said he will target and punish those who disagree with him or refuse to bend to his will. He calls these Americans the enemy within [crowd boos],  and says that he would use the American military to go after American citizens [crowd groans], journalists who stories he doesn’t like, nonpartisan election officials who refuse to cheat by finding a few extra votes for him, judges who insist on following the law instead of following him. It is for reasons like these that General Mark Milley, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Donald Trump’s top General, has called Trump, and I quote: “fascist to the core,” [smattering of applause] and it is clear Donald Trump is increasingly unstable [cheer] and unhinged [louder cheer].

Tim Walz  06:46

Yesterday, he went on Fox News — that’s a safe place for him, he went on there — and he suggested that he is going to send the military against the enemy from within [crowd groans]. I want you to think about it. In other words, Americans who don’t support it. Just to be clear, if any of your neighbors or friends or anybody thinks about that, you know he’s talking about he’s talking about you. He’s talking about you. He’s talking about someone who comes to a rally to express their love and their commitment to our democracy. Donald Trump sees that as an enemy.

Alright, so I have to tell you, as someone who wore this nation’s uniform proudly [cheers], as someone who now is the commander and chief of the Minnesota National Guard, the idea of sending U.S. military personnel against American citizens makes me sick to my stomach. I’ll tell you what. We’ll let the lawyer decide if what he said was treason, but what I know is it’s a call for violence, plain and simple, and it’s pretty damn un-American, if you ask me [cheers]. So look, if anybody wants to pretend that this is a normal conversation that Donald Trump is having, just dispel that. The former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Milley, said: No one has ever been more dangerous to this country than Donald Trump, and he is a fascist to his core [cheers]. Let that sink in, and don’t be a damn bit afraid of saying it, because that’s exactly who he is.

Sam Goldman  08:17

While others, from Hillary Clinton to Liz Cheney chimed in on this as well. It is worth listening to this retired Major General, Randy Manner — sharing, not to reify the military, but because it represents an understanding too few are grasping. Give a listen: 

Randy Manner  08:32

If he was to be the Commander in Chief again, everything changes. The Supreme Court has given him immunity, and the threshold for turning the National Guard into his personal police force is quite low. As long as he has a consenting governor, he can authorize the funds to pay them as the Commander in Chief, and he can use the National Guard almost in any way that he wants. Most Americans don’t know how very easy it would be for a off the…an  unhinged president to use the military against our own citizens.  

Laura Coates  08:47

Could he force an unwilling governor to do the same? Or he would have to have one complicit?

Randy Manner  09:13

It’s easy if the governor is complicit. If it’s unwilling governor, he could consider using the active duty. There are so many things that could be done because these are areas where sane men don’t go. It’s basically the guardrails of our democracy. The the rule of law prevents civilian leaders from going where they should not go. But President Trump is not like any sane leader.

Laura Coates  09:42

One of the common pushbacks I hear when anyone sort of opines about the prospect of him using the military is they say that you are undermining the military. You are not giving them enough credit. They would not perform or follow an unlawful order of any kind. What do you say to that?

Randy Manner  09:58

It’s very important to understand that the President of the United States, he or she selects all the officers for promotion in our military. Congress, the Senate, approves those nominations,  but it’s the President who does it. So under Project 2025, it is proposed that he’s going to require the equivalent of a loyalty oath, or they call it an interview, of all three and four star generals. Well, you can imagine it’s only because we had people like Secretary of Defense, Mark Esper and then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Milley, with their strong personalities, that served as a guardrail on the way to block the president from doing some quite frankly illegal and inappropriate actions while he was president

Laura Coates  10:17

Speaking of Joint Chiefs Mark Milley, he told Bob Woodward — he was the chairman of that, of course: Trump is now the most dangerous person to this country. I had suspicions when I talked to you about his mental decline and so forth, but now I realize he’s a total fascist. This is a stunning statement from somebody of such high ranking. What does it say that someone like Milley would vocalize this and believe it? 

Randy Manner  11:15

I’m very proud of General Milley for saying what he did to Bob Woodward. It’s important that we step back for a second. I’m so surprised how many people do not even know what the concept of fascism is. It’s something… so let’s just back up a second. If you go to Webster online and you’re going to find that Fascism is defined a: It’s usually nationalistic. It’s far right. Okay, let’s see — that’s certainly the Trump campaign, and Trump. It’s going to be intolerant of dissenting opinions — okay, we got to check on that.

There’s a contempt for the rule of law, or only the laws they want to follow — we’ve got to check on that.Then also unquestioning obedience to the Supreme Leader — okay, check. Then lastly, it’s this concept of a supremacy, of a race or a religion — well, check, check — white and Christian is very are the backbone of his of his people. That is actually the definition of fascism. I encourage your viewers to look it up themselves and draw their own conclusions. Mark Milley, extremely well educated, he is very articulate, very smart man. He and I worked together in the Pentagon many years ago, literally person to person for a long time.

If he, as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, is calling the President a fascist, I am so proud of him for breaking that barrier to say, to speak to the truth that he is. The challenge is, because most MAGA Republicans — and please understand, I am not referring to Republicans in general, but the very far right, the hard core, they don’t understand what fascism is. The reality is they are, in fact, fascists themselves by the definition. And here’s the sad part: The people who vote for Trump, they don’t realize that they are also supporting a fascist, and that is very bad for our country, and it’s done out of ignorance in most cases. It’s a very sad state of affairs thatwe have a fascist running for the President of the United States.

Sam Goldman  13:24

That was retired Major General Randy Manner being interview on Laura Coates Live show on CNN. The point of accurate diagnosis is commensurate treatment. When you are being told that he is a fascist — one who has no regard for the law to norms for elections — while also being told: This will be over, all you have to do is vote for Harris on November 5th, you are being fed a lie. Because ifthat was true, how fascist could he really be? If we take him and this MAGA fascist movement at their word, which we should by now, we need to be prepared and not sleepwalk right back into Trump in the White House. Overwhelmingly, today, October 20, 2024 people are not prepared. People are not prepared for the violence — either the violence of a losing Trump’s attempt to seize power, or the violence of a winning Trump’s retribution — the massive violence necessary to carry out his policies. 

Nor are people are prepared for the possibility of World War Three breaking out even before the election. People in this country as fearful as they might be, to not understand what fascism in America may actually look like, with many seeing the institutions that are enabling fascism as the antidote, and fascism’s religious and cultural foundations as off limits from criticism. So with only weeks left to wake people up so that we can act accordingly together, whatever we face in the coming weeks — most certainly a situation that won’t be over on November 5th — here is This American Fascism, a retrospective, which originally aired May 5, 2024.

We simply would not have reached this milestone without this relentless fascist movement, without the complicity of the Democratic Party leadership and the mainstream media or without you, our dear listeners, in all seriousness, thank you for being on this journey with us. Thank you to our OG listeners who were with us from the beginning as I recorded on a cell phone in a car, and to our brand spanking new listeners just joining and everyone in between.

Thank you to all who have rated, reviewed, shared on their socials, sent us an email with their thoughts, commented on a YouTube, left a voicemail. You haven’t? I’m still waiting. Send this pod to your friends and fam: use this podcast as a resource in your college classroom; started a discussion group off this show; hit the streets after listening and so many other brilliant things, and, of course, a special thank you to those who have financially made this show possible, our lovely patrons, we are six months to the day out from the very real possibility, even likelihood, of Donald Trump winning the presidency, with all the horrors that would mean. You’re gonna want to tune in to our May 19 episode of forum on what it will actually take to stop this fascist threat and what role voting or does or does not play in that. To be clear, I’m gonna say right now, we are not telling people not to vote. Just clarify in the fascist worldview, 

Donald Trump  16:45

We’re going to win this election because we have no choice. If we lose the election, we’re not going to have a country left.

Sam Goldman  16:51

Republi-fascists are fighting for a permanent win, one that eliminates for good all of their political enemies and all of the people who they think have destroyed, quote, unquote, their country in their time out of the White House and not behind bars. Trump and his now much more sophisticated team are planning a vengeful program, straight up dictatorship in which their unchallenged domination would be enforced by every means at their disposal. Let’s also not forget the fascist horror show under the reign of the Trump/Pence regime, the kids in cages, the mass detention and deportation, the Muslim ban, his transformation of the judiciary,Charlottesville, the coup attempt and so so much more.

And even as horrific as it was, what they are promising and are increasingly prepared to do would make that look like Fisher Price fascism. And if you forget what the Trump/Pence regime did when they were in power, go back and look through the archives at refusefascism.org as Trump ramps up his campaign, he promises to double down on his Hitlerian rhetoric and his fascist collaborators openly plan to institute this fully fleshed out fascist program, “On day one” of his dictatorship, the GOP and Trump are clear, if they lose the next election, they will not fail at having Republican legislators decide the election instead, and if necessary, take it by force. But no matter what happens, it must be said that Fascism is never legitimate, no matter what happens. This fall in today’s episode, you’re going to hear from co-producers of the show, truly a tremendous tiny team, starting with Mark.

Mark Tinkleman  18:39

Hi. I’m Mark Tinkleman, one of the volunteer producers of this podcast. Over the course of 200 episodes, we’ve created a resource collecting some of the best insights from over 170 people with expertise, experience and authority to speak on the threat we face from 21st century American fascism. With this episode, we’re not just trying to share some highlights, but using our archive to create a crash course on what this fascist threat is, and an essential tool to enable commensurate action as this threat unfolds.

This isn’t a Golden Girls clip show. It’s not the funniest, most entertaining or most nostalgic clips, not just something for us to look back on with pride, but an asset for preparing for the fight ahead. This podcast was launched in June of 2020. We started the show during the pandemic as the protests for justice for George Floyd and to end systemic racial oppression were just breaking out. This show was the voice of a movement that was mobilizing people to drive out the Trump pence regime, when their genocidal program and intent to maintain power by any means, was clear to anyone who didn’t have their head up their ass.

We’ve kept it going as a vehicle to continue to engage with some of the diverse voices of conscious, writing, speaking and acting on the most critical issues of the day, to build connections and to develop our collective understanding of the actual political stakes of the moment we’re in. Not what the pundits will tell you about this or that horse race, but what the US fascist Movement is doing, as well as how people are resisting and need to resist, over four years of exposing the nature roots and trajectory. History of American fascism. We provided coverage and analysis in the immediate aftermath of Trump losing and refusing to concede.

We’ve sounded the alarm of the abortion rights emergency as SB eight went into effect in Texas and the Dobbs case was taken up by the Supreme Court. We have called on you to join us in the middle of the action in DC, before, during and after the fall of Roe in 2022 as people rose up to defend and restore abortion rights nationwide, we’ve shared stories of people rising up from student walkouts against don’t say gay laws to the battles over drag performance, from those defying book bans to those raising hell to bring attention to living hell for migrants at the southern border.

You may not hear all of this on this episode, but we invite you to go back and listen through all this, we have seen the potential power of the people breaking out of politics as usual and protests as usual, from the uprising of 2020 to the campus encampments today, a power which has challenged and even driven out hated regimes across the world, which has delegitimized and helped end genocidal wars, which has won essential rights like through the green wave in Latin America, a power which has shaped our world today much more than any election, and which we’ve still only gotten a glimpse of. And in the midst of struggle, we take hope and inspiration from people beginning to ask big questions of how we got here, where things are going and what must be done. So I hope you listen to this episode today and that inspires you to dive deeper in.

GO TO Refuse Fascism Episode 200 This American Fascism: A Retrospective