Steve Hofstetter: Comedy and Standing Up Against Fascism

Send your comments to [email protected] or @SamBGoldman. Connect with the movement at RefuseFascism.org and support:

Venmo: @Refuse-Fascism Cashapp: @RefuseFascism paypal.me/refusefascism donate.refusefascism.org Music for this episode: Penny the Snitch by Ikebe Shakedown.

Transcription:

Sun, 5/9 6:57PM • 32:30

SPEAKERS

Coco Das, Sam Goldman, Steve Hofstetter

Steve Hofstetter 00:00

Fascism is terrifying. We have a white supremacist caucus in Congress now. We’re still in danger. What’s the risk? The risk is that people don’t trust institutions anymore. The risk is that the greatest good is not done for the greatest number. The danger of fascism is giving specific people unlimited rights and other people none.

Sam Goldman 00:36

Welcome to Episode 58 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Today we’re sharing an interview with comedian Steve Hofstetter, who talked to Coco Das, contributing editor of Refuse fascism.org about fascism, speaking out against fascism, and other fun topics. Steve’s a very funny guy when he’s actually cracking jokes, and you can catch him doing just that in a town near you starting this week. Find an upcoming show from his tour page on his website linked on the show notes. But first, a couple reminders on why it is 100% relevant to declare “we refuse to accept a fascist America” in spring 2021. We continue to witness the numerous ways the cult of Trump retains a stranglehold on the Republi-fascist party, even as his avenues to communicate directly with his followers have become more limited. It makes a difference right now that he can’t actively rile them up to carry out hate crimes or amplify disinformation through his own accounts on Twitter, Facebook, Snapchat and YouTube. But he’s only been permanently banned from Twitter and Snapchat. And as this week’s announcement from Facebook indicates, his suspension may be lifted within a few more months. YouTube has already announced he will be reinstated when the threats of violence subside. These bans are not enough to stop Trumpism. It’s on us to stay vigilant and refuse fascism. And that’s what you do every week when you listen to this podcast and are part of this community.

Then in the latest developments on the continuing story of voter suppression that everyone needs to watch, Governor Desantis in Florida signed into law the sweeping New Jim Crow bill this week live on Fox News, and only Fox News. This is one of literally hundreds of bills that have been introduced this year that aim to suppress voter participation, combined with a wave of laws that criminalize protest and provide legal encouragement for vigilante violence against protesters. This needs to be taken seriously as the actions of a party out of the executive branch but with lots of power, and a bloodthirsty base. Society wide repudiation of this American fascism requires that people from every corner of society speak up and take a stand. Now, here’s Coco Das in conversation with stand-up comic, Steve Hofstetter. I’m getting loud in the face of fascist threats and noise.

Coco Das 03:28

Today, I’m really happy to be here with author, columnist, and comedian Steve Hofstetter. He’s a stand- up comic currently back on the tour circuit and the author of the young adult nonfiction book ‘Ginger Kid’ and co-founder of the virtual comedy venue, the Nowhere Comedy Club. You can follow his work at SteveHofstetter.com and on Twitter @SteveHofstetter. Today I’m talking to Steve about fascism, about Trump and the role of the artist and the comic in particular at times like this. Welcome, Steve. I’m really glad to be talking with you today.

Steve Hofstetter 04:05

Well, thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Coco Das 04:07

I first met you virtually when Refuse Fascism hosted a press conference a few days after the January 6 Capitol riots. In case anyone in the audience needs a refresher, this is when hundreds of Trump supporters, egged on by Donald Trump and others in the GOP, stormed the capitol in order to stop the certification of Biden as the winner of the 2020 Electoral College. This was nothing less than an attempted coup. And you joined many other voices of conscience including Cornel West, Lilly Wachowski, Jodie Sweeten Rosanna Arquette, Reverend William Lamar, who was the pastor of the church in DC that was vandalized by Proud Boys during another convergence on DC around this big lie that Trump won the election. And the theme of the press conference was “now is the time to act. Trump/Pence Out Now! In the name of humanity we refuse to accept a fascist America.”

Before I jump into the first question, I thought it would be worth reading just the beginning of a statement that Refuse Fascism made right after the events of January 6. “On Wednesday, January 6, we saw President Trump call forth and unleash fascist mobs to storm the US Capitol. This was an attempt at a coup. It will not likely succeed this time, but the danger from even a failed coup is to be taken seriously, setting the stage for them to come back sooner or later to re-seize power with or without Trump. It leaves a block of elected officials who view and act as if the Biden administration is illegitimate, and an armed street fighting force on call to dominate the public square. They will continue to fight for their white supremacist, xenophobic and patriarchal program. And they will continue to undermine the very concept of truth, leaving tens of millions to be susceptible to the calls of demagogues and the violent conspiracy theories. I wanted to read that just as a backdrop to our conversation. So I thought it was just worth revisiting. My first question to you is looking back on this event now that several months have gone by, how do you view it and what’s been on your mind around it when you think back on it and what still troubles you about it?

Steve Hofstetter 06:24

I think that we got lucky in a couple ways. One, we got lucky that there wasn’t more violence. We got lucky that there wasn’t more death. We got lucky that none of our elected officials were killed. And the more we learned about it, the more we realized how close some of them were to it; Mitt Romney in particular. I think we also got lucky because it did wake some people up. There were a number of people who left the Republican Party afterward. I believe the numbers were somewhere about 150,000 people disaffiliated. A friend of mine was estranged from his father over this kind of stuff. His father called him it was just basically like, “I’m sorry, you’re right. This is too much,” because a lot of people didn’t believe when from the very beginning we were like, “this is not okay, this will not end well.” “Oh, it’s fine. Look at what he’s done for business.” It’s one thing to try to convince them that no, Trump is actually a horrible businessman, and terribly unscrupulous. But they all still found a way to believe “oh, don’t worry, it’s gonna be okay.” And what the events of January 6 did is it showed some people once and for all, it’s not going to be okay. Now, there are people who said on January 7 that it wasn’t okay and then have gone back on it since, such as Lindsey Graham and Nikki Haley and people like that. But I think that there was a bit of luck involved, that it wasn’t worse. And there was luck involved, that we were able to see what the carnage could be without actually having to experience it.

Coco Das 07:47

I appreciate what you’re saying about luck. I think even in terms of Trump losing the election, there was an element of luck or there was circumstance involved. Sometimes I think, if not for COVID, or if not for the uprising of millions of people in the summer after George Floyd’s murder, could Trump have won? I wanted to jump to something that you mentioned in the press conference that we did, and you’ve talked about it on YouTube. You’ve spoken about getting over 3000 hate messages after you responded to a heckler who yelled out an anti-Semitic trope during one of your shows.

Steve Hofstetter 08:25

Yes.

Coco Das 08:26

In one of your YouTube videos, you walk through that incident in a very funny but also very serious and systematic way, and I definitely recommend that our viewers check that out; we can link to it in the show notes. The trope was about Jewish people controlling TV or Hollywood. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about the incident. But what did that barrage of messages, trolls and actually serious death threat signal to you? And why is it something that you didn’t decide to just shrug off?

Steve Hofstetter 08:57

Yeah, so in the original incident happened, someone yelled out something at a show that was supposed to be a joke about Jews controlling television. I took offense to it, because I knew where it came from. That is a Hitler talking point. That is absolutely where that came from. I did a whole video of the history of it, as you said, and people will say, “Oh, who cares? It’s just a joke.” And the point that I make in the video that seemed to resonate with the most people is the root of violent prejudice anywhere is casual prejudice. And it’s where it begins. And when you can see a group of people as an “other,” that allows you to strip them of their humanity. When you can strip them of their humanity, that is when you can do horrible things to them. And that is how Jewish people were painted during the Holocaust and through various points of history and to some people today. Getting a barrage of hate mail is nothing new to me. I started as a baseball writer and I would get that when I would question whether or not a bad team was going to win the World Series. Getting the barrage I got of specifically anti-Semitic — and I’m not talking about like just using anti-Semitic tropes — but hundreds of comments that suggested violent things to me, thousands of threats to my life. The hardest thing about it was realizing that that many people believe that, and realizing that, okay, this isn’t just some ignorant prejudiced people coming from somewhere that’s nowhere near me. It’s like, no, these are people who live everywhere in the world. These were coming from all over America and Europe and Canada, and Africa and Asia. And there are hateful people who are prejudiced and who hate me simply because of the religion I was born into. And that was a tough pill to swallow.

Coco Das 10:41

Did you have any thoughts or feelings about where it came from? Or was it a surprise? Do you feel like it was a something that was re-emerging? Or just something that was coming to the surface?

Steve Hofstetter 10:53

Probably 10 or 15 years ago, I posted a video where I mentioned being Jewish. It was just a casual part of the video, didn’t even matter to it. And ever since then, I jokingly call it “when I came out as Jewish,” because that’s the first time I had mentioned it on video or in social media. I don’t think a day has gone by where I haven’t seen something negative about it. And especially during that whole saga, probably about two months or so, it started dying down a little bit. Part of that was because the Daily Stormer ran an article where the first two words of the article, of the headline, were “Kike Comedian.” And that was me, hey everybody. I couldn’t post a picture of my dog without someone commenting something negative about me being Jewish. I’ve seen anti-Semitism my entire life. And coming from a mixed family – Obviously, I’m white, my sister is Black – And coming from a mixed family. I’ve seen racism every day in my life. What’s different in the last four years is how bold people are getting about it. I saw it happen the week after the election 2016. I was walking in Charleston, South Carolina, there was a protest just a bunch of kids on a street corner holding signs. And that’s all it was. The vast majority of them were not white. A group of people walked by who were in town for some sort of convention they were wearing like badges, you know, like convention type badges. All of them. White people looking like young professionals. As they were passing by me I heard one of them say something to the effect of why don’t we bring them back to our room and show them what racism really is. And the others laughed. They thought it was funny. I had never seen anything like that before. Despite seeing direct racism at my sister and direct anti-Semitism on my entire family, I’d never seen anything like that on a street of a major city. And it was the week of the election. And that was the signal to me that buckle up. This is going to be a rough four years.

Coco Das 12:41

Oh, that happened here in Austin too; suddenly these groups of dressed up white men for work were suddenly emboldened and just heckling people on the street. You said something during the press conference that really stayed with me. You said, “people were trying to quiet me or to silence me, and my response was to get louder.” I thought that was really an important way to look at our responsibility and what we do how we respond in this time.

I want to ask you about comedy in particular. But before I go into that question, I want to read the definition of fascism that we had up on the Refuse Fascism website that’s still there. This is the second paragraph that says “fascism is not just a gross combination of horrific reactionary policies. It is a qualitative change in how society is governed fascism foments and relies on xenophobic nationalism, racism, misogyny, and the aggressive reinstitution of oppressive traditional values. Fascist mobs and threats of violence are unleashed to build the movement and consolidate power. What is crucial to understand is that once in power, fascism essentially eliminates traditional democratic rights.” I think one thing that people sort of get, but maybe don’t fully grasp about fascism, is how transformative it is. It does seize on existing divisions and prejudices in society, but then it also transforms people into becoming instruments of hate, and genocide. I was thinking about the arts, it seems to me like comedy and music, as two areas of the arts and popular culture, are where there is great potential to both reinforce fascist ideas reinforce these divisions and these existing oppressive ideas, and at the same time, have great potential to really resist and break away from those and subvert those ideas. And I wonder if you see it the same way? How do you see this tension or dynamic in comedy playing out? And if you can, I wonder if you can give us a little picture of the political discourse in the comedy world. What kinds of conversations are comics like you having with each other about this political moment that we’re in?

Steve Hofstetter 14:58

I would expand that umbrella to all of entertainment. I actually think that if we look through American history, I think sport in particular has been very, very valuable. You know, Jackie Robinson’s debut was 17 years before the Civil Rights Act. And if you go back to Althea Gibson and Babe Didrikson, there were so many amazingly important moments in breaking down this white man culture, while I am one I am part of. So I think that sport has been incredibly important, but entertainment in general, because it’s a way for someone to be listening to someone who is not reflective of themselves. While I do believe that representation is incredibly important, when it comes to entertainment for people to see themselves in the entertainment that they watch, it’s also incredibly important for them to see other people in the entertainment they watch as well; because that’s how we bridge gaps. Whether it is the material in a comedy set, or something in a TV show, or something in a song or etc, there have been white kids who have been singing about police brutality their whole life without realizing it, because they’ve just been singing along the Public Enemy. That kind of stuff is really important.

In terms of conversations and comedy, there are some comedians who are bristling at the idea of them having to change and break from the idea of “Oh, it’s just a joke. I’m just kidding around. Can’t you tell I’m kidding?” Comedy has always changed with the time. You’re a bad comedian if you can’t. If your comedy is stuck in 2006, and what was funny back then, then you’re a hack. You have to be able to evolve. And this whole thing about cancel culture, I can’t name a single comedian that’s been canceled. I can name many that have lost work. But that’s what happens when you’re not relevant anymore, or when you commit a crime. But I don’t know any that have been canceled. I don’t know any that simply can’t work because of one thing that they did or said. I find that to be driven from fear. I don’t care what a comedian’s opinion is, but I want them to show their work. And if they can’t show their work as to how they got that opinion, then that’s not their opinion, they’re just saying it to get a rise out of somebody, and you don’t need to do that as a comic. You can actually say what you believe in or what your character believes in, or etc. The most important point I want to make is that no artist is responsible for the reaction to their art, but they are 100% responsible to respond to that response. The people who say: “oh, look It started a dialogue”, okay, cool, step one. Now what? Now what’s your response? Now what are you going to say, as the dialogue is happening? What will you say if the dialogue turns the wrong way? Are you just going to let the dialogue happen? Or you’re going to continue being an artist?

Coco Das 17:21

Could you say a little bit more about showing your work, you can have an opinion, but show your work? If you can give an example for our listeners who are not comedians, what is it?

Steve Hofstetter 17:30

Danny Jolles who is a great comic has one of the best bits on this that I’ve ever seen. And I cannot do justice to it so I will just say, watch Danny Jolless’s bit about homophobia. It’s fantastic. But if you’re going to do a joke, where the punchline of the joke is a stereotype, do you believe in that stereotype, or no? There’s a joke I did on my last special about how there was a Chinese comic who did a joke about how all Asian people can’t drive, and he asked me about it afterward. And I said, that’s a racist joke. He couldn’t accept the fact that he… that can’t be a racist joke, because I’m Chinese. And the punchline in my joke is, well, you’re only one more Chinese guy than I am. You’re not all Chinese people. And you can be just as racist as anybody else can, we all can. And so the show your work is: does he actually believe that. If he actually believes it, and he makes a case for it, all right. I’d like to convince him otherwise, but at least he showed his work.

Coco Das 18:21

That’s fascinating. I mean, I think that there are certain jokes and comedians where the stereotype is stated, but there’s something that undercuts it, there’s something that brings out the absurdity of it or something that’s sort of separates that as a point of judgment, and then there are some that just reinforce it and don’t do anything to challenge it.

Steve Hofstetter 18:42

The trick is the stereotype or the satire needs to come with a wink and a nod. And if it doesn’t come with that wink and nod, and I don’t mean a physical one, but if it doesn’t come with that metaphorical wink and a nod, then all you’re doing is just agreeing with it.

Coco Das 18:54

I wanted to actually segue into the subject of satire. I’m guessing that satire doesn’t wholly characterize what you do, but I want to hear your take on an observation. I was reading an op-ed and some of this book by a political scientist, Mehnaaz Momen, who wrote a book about satire in the age of Trump. She said that under Trump, the function of satire “as a process of shaming the wrongdoer has fallen flat on its face as we crave the performance. And we are greatly entertained in spite of the harrowing consequences of specific political actions.” She was sort of critiquing how a lot of the late night comedians or satire shows end up being just a play by play of what Trump said. Then she also talks about the societal requirement for satire to be effective, as like a societal instrument, there needs to be a general consensus on what reality is. And so now we’re in a situation really all over the world with these fascist movements and governments on the rise, we have a whole section of society that is incapable of being shamed. They’re actually proud of the things that should be shameful. And they make up their own alternative reality as if truth is not what can be backed up by evidence. It’s whatever Trump says it is. So I wonder if you have thoughts on that generally, on satire? How did satirists do with Trump? And also what it means for your work as a comic?

Steve Hofstetter 20:36

I agree with her second point that in order for satire to work, there has to be some sort of grip on what you’re satirizing. You can’t make fun of flat earthers if some people are actually being flat earthers. Like it’s hard to if people were like: “Well, you know, let’s hear ’em out”. I think the first part is an overgeneralization. I think that there has been some phenomenal satire that has come out of the last four years. Part of that has been simply to show what he has been saying, but in a creative way, like Sarah Cooper did. And that was fantastic satire to show just how insane this is. When the emperor has no clothes, you have to point it out. And throughout the world, and throughout history, there have been jesters in a time of horror. That’s what this is. Yeah, it’s hard to truly satirize something when there’s a new dumb thing every day. When one of the things he said would have been a scandal for six months under any other administration, but instead, it’s the very next day to something else in the news cycle, that’s even worse. It’s exhausting. It’s hard to keep up with as a comic. And also you don’t want to be unoriginal. And so you have to find a truly original take on it. But to say that satire is dead, or to say that satire has not been able to do its job, I think, is a very limited view of satire.

Coco Das 21:48

I wanted to ask, in your mind, what has changed most with the Trump/Pence regime no longer in power? What would it have meant if he had been elected or held on to power? And what does it mean that he’s not there?

Steve Hofstetter 22:03

Well, I wouldn’t have been on tour again, because there’s no way that 40% of the population would be vaccinated. I mean, there’s just simply no way and in fact, the big lie and the politicizing of science and etc, is the reason that 50% are not vaccinated right now. And it gets worse every day. But if you look at the statistics of which states have a percentage of population vaccinated, as of this morning, it was the last time I looked at it, but this morning of the 22 most vaccinated states and territories, one of them voted for Trump in the last election; one of them. We’re watching Darwinism in real time. As horrific as it is that this pandemic is going to continue raging and it’s going to continue killing people. And then there are people who can’t get vaccinated because of their immune systems or the diseases that they have, and then there are people who can’t, because they don’t live close enough to a place where they can get it or they don’t have a ride there. Or, or if you look at what’s happening in India, there are entire countries that don’t have access to the same supplies that we do. But if you look at just America, they’re killing themselves, and they’re taking everyone else with them. But it’s gotten to the point now where we have a decision where we can live or die. And it’s tragic, because there are people who have been convinced that it’s in their own best interests to die. And I hate that. But it’s happening. And we’re watching in real time.

Coco Das 23:14

What impact do you hope to have as a comic on all this? Or is that the wrong question?

Steve Hofstetter 23:21

No, that’s a fine question. The day after the election 2016, I started out my set by saying “thank you for coming today. I know a lot of people called in sad to work.” And I did 15 minutes of pro-immigration, pro-choice, pro-feminism, anti-racism jokes, just everything that I had. That was the stuff that I would sprinkle into a set here and there, get them to listen first. You know, a spoonful of sugar, here’s the medicine. And I just came out of the gate swinging that day. I grew up as a comic under Bush. I started as a comic in 2002. And I always felt like I was the minority and that I was kind of swinging against the herd, swimming upstream, I guess. And then Obama became president, and I was very happy about that. And then as an artist, I started feeling a little bit useless, there was still plenty to change. I let myself get uninspired, which is lazy of me. It doesn’t matter who’s president, there’s a lot to say. I felt useless. But looking back on it, I couldn’t name senators and other states. I couldn’t name my local representatives, because I wasn’t that involved. And that’s why I felt useless. Because I was under the mistaken impression that there was only one election. Now growing older and having a better understanding of the world. My place is to not shut up.

To go back to the thing that you said about my talk about how they tried to silence me and so I got louder. That wasn’t an instant decision. There was a two week period where I was terrified, and where I talked to the ADL and frankly they were no help at all. They were just basically like, hey, these things happen. And I talked to the FBI and they were a little bit more of a help. And I thought it through, and I talked to my friend who I was on tour with. And I came to the realization that if anyone had brought this to me and asked me for advice, I’d have told them to get louder. So why was I scared? That was a big change in my perspective, and I get messages from people on Facebook all the time being like, hey, be careful out there, you know, maybe shut up a little, you know, we want you to be safe. I look at it. And I think I’m so much safer than the average person. I’m so much safer than a black person whose taillight is out. I’m so much safer than a woman trying to work at a company that’s run by men. Why should I be scared? My responsibility as a comic, my role in all this is to not shut the hell up?

Coco Das 25:46

Well, I guess my final question, and then I wanted to give you a chance to say any parting thoughts you have for the audience or for other comics, but what do you see as the continuing danger of fascism? Things have changed with the Trump/Pence regime. They don’t have state power. We don’t have a lunatic with his hands on the nuclear trigger. But some of these dangers are continuing. So what do you see as the danger or dangers at this moment and going forward?

Steve Hofstetter 26:13

I mean, outside of America, you can see Brazil and you can see India, and you can see a lot of other places that still have that same danger. But we have a white supremacist caucus in Congress now. We have a congressman who we have proof that he sexually trafficked under aged women. And the republicans want us to hear him out. We’re still in danger. The danger is, look when it comes down to it, okay, being Jewish, I am a minority, but for the most part, nobody would know if I shut up about it. I could walk through life and selfishly not have to deal with most of the damage that other people have to deal with. But that doesn’t mean I don’t see it. What’s the risk? The risk is that people don’t trust institutions anymore. The risk is that the greatest good is not done for the greatest number. The Bill of Rights was based on the declarations of man and citizen. And the premise of that document was we all have unlimited rights until they interfere with other people’s. The danger of fascism is giving specific people unlimited rights and other people none.

Coco Das 27:13

Well, I really want to thank you for being with us. And I want to ask if you have any final comments for our audience, I do want to say that you have some YouTube videos that you do, you did one about Matt Gaetz recently. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about that, how to follow you and how to follow your tour.

Steve Hofstetter 27:33

I do a series on my YouTube and my Facebook called ‘Stick to Comedy’, where it’s a slap in the face of the people who tell me that. And you know, I’ve done videos about Matt Gaetz and Ted Cruz and Marjorie Taylor green as well as other things like how Robin Hood is, is rigged against casual traders and how PETA is a slaughterhouse. And the basic premise of these videos is I’m not going to stick to comedy, I’m going to use comedy to get points across. But if I have a final thought it is fascism is terrifying. But what’s also terrifying is us letting it happen by attacking our own. And one of the biggest problems that I’ve seen with the left is that we eat our own, we are so quick to eat our own. And we are so quick to: wait, this politician said one thing that I disagree with, well, then they’re dead to me. And that, to me is crazy. Politicians are not your spouse, you’re not looking for the one. Politicians are public transportation, you are looking for a way to get from point A to point B. And once you get to point B, maybe you can find a better bus. But we have to be careful to not attack those who agree with us 80% of the way in order to help those who don’t agree with us at all.

Coco Das 28:43

Thank you, Steve. You can follow Steve on twitter at Steve Hofstetter and check out his work at SteveHofstetter.com

Sam Goldman 28:52

Thanks for listening to the Refuse Fascism podcast of last week’s episode on the republic fascist tsunami of anti-trans laws featuring an interview with Brynn Tannehill. We received some really important comments here are just some of them. A UK listener wrote: “Important but terrifying discussion. I’m ashamed of the role trans hostile UK activists have played (self-styled feminists) the sowing hate and ushering in fascist bills. We face an uphill fight here as anti-trans and far right forces are being more strategic in attacking equality law.” A supporter from Hawaii emailed: “We cannot just move on. Trump and his millions of followers are working harder to come back. Which means fascism is working hard for a comeback. You want to see a return to fascism, keep ignoring the attempt that never stops. Anti-fascism is not a one off. It is a permanent office and the open hours are 24/7. A listener from North California wrote: “If you are a true resistor #resist, then please take 30 minutes 1.5 speed to listen to this particular podcast episode from Refuse Fascism with Sam Goldman and guest Brynn Tannehill.” A subscriber from Philadelphia wrote: “‘Important’ and ‘podcast’ are two words that don’t generally go together, but this is easily the most important podcast out there right now. Every episode brings in critical voices to understand what’s setting the terms today and where and how we must challenge all of that.” And a listener from LA wrote: “Yes, I was struck by verbiage of openly gay, “Bell Curve aficionado”, Andrew Sullivan describing trans, chilling. Neimöller’s poem can be reimagined so many ways, but rest assured they will come for you, even collaborators, till there’s no one left except fascist state, and populous.” Thanks, everyone, for writing about this really important episode. Check it out if you haven’t listened to it yet, we want more of this. If you found this episode informative, enlightening, challenging, let us know. We hope you’ll rate review the show on Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to help us reach more listeners and connect with us on social media or most of the comments I read can be found. Share your thoughts on this episode, the show in general, your ideas for topics and guests questions you have. Write me on Twitter @SamBGoldman, or email [email protected]. And if you want to lend your hand to the podcast as a volunteer, I want to hear that too. And yes, you can chip in to support the show by donating at RefuseFascism.org. Again, thanks for listening. And I’ll be back next Sunday with a new episode. So be sure to hit subscribe, so you get it as soon as it uploads. Thanks to Coco Das, Richie Marini, Lina Thorne for helping produce this episode. As always, in the name of humanity, we refuse to accept a fascist America. Stay safe, not silent.