Chanelle Wilson: Critical Race Theory and Anti-Racist Education

Sam Goldman interviews Chanelle Wilson, assistant professor of education and the director of the Africana Studies program at Bryn Mawr College. Dr. Wilson has been vocally arguing for anti-racist approaches in education and uses critical race theory as a tool for identifying oppressive structures in the educational system and beyond. Read her profile in Newsweek and follow her on Twitter at @DrWEWilson.

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Transcription:

Episode 64

Chanelle Wilson 00:00

Critical race theory is a framework that allows us to understand the systemic and structural racism that exists in the United States. Critical race theory helps us to notice. That’s really what it does. It helps us to see and understand anti-racism on the continuum, if you will, is what’s pushing us toward action. We have to confront white supremacy. We have to confront the patriarchy. We have to confront religious superiority and different privileges. We have to do that work.

Sam Goldman 00:46

Welcome to Episode 64 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. In today’s episode, we’re sharing conversation that I had earlier this week on critical race theory with Dr. Chanelle Wilson, Associate Professor of Education at Bryn Mawr and Haverford colleges, af cnd Director of Bryn Mawr’s Africana Studies Program.

It’s Juneteenth weekend. So it’s extremely apt that we talk about the memory wars taking place around the foundational role slavery played in this country, and how white supremacy continues to shape and dominate American life. This is also the week that the Texas State government banned the teaching of critical race theory and associated concepts, apparently still mad that those slaves were freed on the first Juneteenth. The attacks on critical race theory are a pillar in this whole fascist assault on everyone they see as less than human. To these Nazis the act of even recognizing the oppression of Black, indigenous, people of color forged through slavery, genocide and oppression, which is woven into the economy, organization and culture of this nation is a “destructive” ideology. The effect of this is reinforcing genocidal white supremacy. Critical race theory examines the ways in which slavery and white supremacy have shaped every sphere of society in the good old USA, including how the wealth was derived, in large part from slavery; how the institutions such as the police and law, are rooted in slavery. It also explores how modern day segregation flows from the history of KKK terror and segregation, and how white people, just by virtue of being white, have a leg up in this society because of how it’s historically developed. These fascists seek to rewrite US history, suppress critical thinking about this country’s past and present, silence dissent and scholarship that tells the truth about the history of this nation, and breaks open debate about why white supremacy continues to today, nd what must be done about it.

Now, here’s my interview with Dr. Wilson. As promised, and as many listeners have requested, rightly so, we are getting into the fascist offensive white supremacists have launched across the country on education. To help us understand the scope of this attack, the motives behind it, the implications it has for teaching, learning, and all of society and what’s required to stop it, I’m happy to bring on and welcome Dr. Chanelle Wilson, Assistant Professor of Education in the Bryn Mawr Haverford College’s education program, and Director of Africana Studies at Bryn Mawr College. Yeah, I know two Philly-centric interviews in a row. What can I say? We have some really brilliant ladies that live here. The primary focus of Chanelle Wilson’s work is on improving educational conditions for students in marginalized groups. I recently learned about her work and was excited by her refusal to cow, whether it be to administrators or naysayers. Dr. Wilson has spent time this last year aiding professors, program directors and graduate students in incorporating critical race theory and de-colonialization into university curriculum, presenting in I believe almost a dozen schools with the goal of helping post-secondary educators create and teach less oppressive curriculum.

Like the tsunami of anti-trans laws, there is a new wave that likewise as an educator is particularly painful to watch. White supremacist fascists are attempting to silence teaching the truth about the foundational role of slavery in the history of the United States and the continuing systemic and institutionalized racism today. Pew Trust reported “the legislators in at least 15 states have introduced measures this session that would prohibit the teaching of critical race theory or related concepts.” That’s the most dangerous part… “in all publicly funded schools, sometimes including penalties, such as dismissal of teachers or defunding of school districts, despite no evidence that it is being taught in any public school.” Critical race theory is already banned in Florida, Arkansas, Idaho, Oklahoma and Tennessee. The Tennessee bill which was signed into law last month by Republican Governor Bill Lee bars schools from broaching a wide variety of topics, including the existence of systemic racism, privilege, oppression, and any criticism of “meritocracy.” It grants the Commissioner of Education undefined discretion to withhold state funds from schools found to be in violation of the law. And before we get into it, I think it’s important to note the context in which this is happening. People marked the 100 year anniversary of the Tulsa massacre, and people, just a year ago participated in the biggest, most beautiful uprising in this country’s history for Black Lives against police murder, a movement that toppled Confederate statues, that led to profound and essential conversations challenging the basic truths of this country. I wanted to start with the big question. People are hearing this term “critical race theory.” They’re seeing it all over social media. They’re hearing it ad nauseum on places like Fox News. And they’re seeing it in what’s happening in their school board meetings. What is critical race theory?

Chanelle Wilson 07:06

Critical race theory is a framework that allows us to understand the systemic and structural racism that exists in the United States. I say it in those words, because it is that simple. It is a tool that helps us to understand the past of the United States, and where we are going and where we can go if we pay attention to something that is inherent in this country’s founding, and in the way that this country continues to operate. But really, that’s all it is. It is a framework that helps us to see race as integral and something that we need to pay attention to if we want to create a better and more just future.

Sam Goldman 07:42

My understanding is that it comes from a very discrete or specific form of work from legal scholars and it’s an academic concept. Not that it doesn’t have implications for the rest of society, but that it isn’t all of anti-racism work.

Chanelle Wilson 07:57

Exactly. Yes, it’s not. So I typically like to pair critical race theory with anti-racism, because we have to put those two things together. Critical race theory, the main tenets of it help us to encourage people to understand that racism is integral, it is not abnormal, it is integral in the United States, in policies and in practices. The second is that there’s this element of interest convergence, which sometimes can be confusing to people. The best way that I explain it is that the ways that this country has made progress in terms of equity and where race relations are when they are aligned with the interests of white people, because racism is normal to this country. And so interest convergence helps us to see even Brown versus Board of Education, or even critical race theory becoming a big topic right now.

Critical race theory has been around since the 60s. It is now because some white people have been vocal about it. Some people in powerful positions have taken up the language, have begun to investigate the work. And because of that, we’re seeing so much backlash against it. And then the other is that when I think of it in terms of education, we have to think about statistics. Sometimes people say objective facts, but also that experiential evidence matters. If we’re looking at discrimination in the ways that are discussed, we have to include people’s experiences in that we have to look at counter-narratives or counter storytelling, the ways that racism creates a narrative for a particular group of people. If we are countering that narrative, then we’re presenting a more full version of perspectives, a more full version of truth, rather than if just racism is looking at oppression. If we’re just talking about race and racism, it is oppressing people of color, Black people, indigenous people who are not white. Critical race theory helps us to notice. That’s really what it does. It helps us to see and understand anti-racism on the continuum, if you will, is what’s pushing us toward action. And so we start with critical race theory, which helps us to make sense, but once we’ve made sense of something, hopefully we feel compelled to act and that’s when anti-racism comes into play. I can separate them, but for me in my work, especially with educators, I’m always putting them together because they are not the same, but they are complimentary to each other.

Sam Goldman 10:04

I appreciate that clarification. I’m wondering because of your perspective in both the post secondary world, but also you’re working with people who will go into working with secondary education studentd. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you see happening within the schools or within universities? Are you noticing certain trends that you think are important pay attention to, in relation to these attacks on critical race theory?

Chanelle Wilson 10:29

I wasn’t introduced to critical race theory until I was in my graduate studies. And so I had been teaching for about six years at that point already. I had come out of a traditional teacher education program that did some work with equity, but they conflated race and poverty. And so once I came across critical race theory, in my graduate studies, I had been teaching my students about race, I had been teaching them about racism, I had been teaching them about structural inequities. And I was teaching at an inner city urban school, but it was a charter school. So they had some levels of privilege and access to resources. But many of the students had experienced these traditional kind of characteristics of urban spaces. And so for me and my teaching, I never wanted to just teach English, although I loved it. I wanted to teach my students how to read the world, and that they could do something about it. But no one can do something about it, one, if they don’t know, but also if they don’t understand how we’ve gotten to this place.

Once I learned about it, I actually did teach critical race theory. I brought those articles in, and it took us a little while to get through them. But we did, because I wanted my students to see this is how you can begin to make sense of what’s happening. This is how you can begin to make sense of this urban space that is underfunded or less resourced or experiencing poverty and different levels of violence and crime. There are reasons for all of these things. And so for them, it helped them to see that this is not just the way that the world works, the way that it always will be and always has been. There’s something that can be done about it. Because this was on purpose. There’s a theory that helps me to understand that. And so I never thought I would be a professor. I just wanted to be in the classroom, and then maybe be a principal, maybe be a superintendent, but life was different. After that, I found myself teaching full time. I’m in teaching and education programs, and I knew the influence that I had on my students and in my classes, and I thought about my responsibility as a teacher educator, as one where I could influence millions of children because I’m influencing their teachers. And so I took that responsibility seriously. And I wanted my students not just to know traditional pedagogy, how to teach English or foundations of education. I wanted them to know that education systems are powerful, so powerful, because every child in this country must come through this space, and many, many years of this space.

So what are the ways that we can influence the future in positive ways by talking about what actually happened, by having real conversations about social inequities, and not pretending that these things don’t exist? I think that people who are in opposition to critical race theory, they recognize the power of schools, and so they see the benefit and the impact of those spaces. And I do as well. With my students, there is no one who was going to leave my space without understanding race, without understanding that race is a social construct. But the impact of racism is very real. We all have something to do within that. Thinking about just universities and different trends, I’m seeing that people want to do better. They want to recognize injustices of the past, they want to understand how we got here. And then there are people who want things to be exactly the same. In my experience, it’s really a minority of people who want things to stay the same, who want to maintain the status quo, but they are very loud. They oftentimes hold positions of power that create this level of influence, where people who are misinformed and are ignorant, they’re susceptible to these influences.

But people want change, people see that things haven’t worked, aren’t working, they’re probably going to get worse in the future. I can’t change anyone, but I can plant seeds. And that’s what I see as my responsibility – planting seeds, with my students, with other faculty with grad students which at some point are going to blossom. I’m seeing people who want change. And because there are so many people who do want change, that minority of people who want things to say the same had to have a plan. And this is their strategy, these are their tactics. These attacks on critical race theory and on just teaching race in education, I think it will continue to backfire. And the ways that just the past, say six years of just this really public ugliness that has always been present in policies and practices — but not so vocal for your average person to see — those things are coming to light and people don’t actually like it.

Sam Goldman 14:31

I think that the work that you’re doing with future educators or current educators that are honing their practice is really important. I’m not sure though whether I agree with that other side is losing. I don’t want to put words in your mouth that we’ll inevitably win. I think that one of the most dangerous things about this wave is the vagueness of these laws. We know that critical race theory is not taught and most undergraduates, let alone graduates, never come in contact with it. As you were pointing out in your own experience, it definitely is not something that secondary students have access to. And my understanding is that there’s intentional vagueness in many of these laws. Could you talk to what the danger with that is for people who are teachers and for students, what they might miss out on?

Chanelle Wilson 15:21

The intentional vagueness and ambiguity is motivated by two things. One, the people who are writing these things, they don’t understand it. That’s one piece of it. The other is that if there’s ambiguity and less rigid language, then there’s this catchall for everything that has to do with equity, everything that has to do with race, everything that has to do with pushing people forward and moving toward actual justice. It’s a really clever tactic. I’m trying to think of the language that you used when you were reading, I forget which state’s it says “all the related concepts,” I think, is what you said. So “other related concept” can mean anything. Because of that other related concepts on language. And the ambiguity that exists, it sparks fear. And that’s the goal of this, it really is to spark fear in communities and teachers and students so that if we instill this amount of fear, then we don’t even have to do the work. We don’t have to police people’s classrooms, we don’t have to look at their lesson plans, they’ll do it themselves. And so this inciting a fear is a necessary tactic.

I just maintain a radical hope that we will win because it’s only been about, let’s say, four or 500 years. Because of this, hopefully, the world will go on for a lot longer. And I see that people and I see that young children, but even teenagers, I see them seeing the world differently. I see them pushing back sometimes against even if it’s in small ways, I see that. And I don’t think that they’re going to stop because the ball is rolling. And we will win. I see the opposition, that to me is proof that we’re winning, it is proof that change is happening. Because if it weren’t, they would not be saying anything, they wouldn’t be doing anything, they wouldn’t care, they’d be doing the same thing that they’ve always been doing. But because they see change, and they see that white people are beginning to want change. that’s when the attack has to happen. People of color, and people from minoritized groups have been yelling and screaming for hundreds of years, no one cared. But now that there is some difference – and that is a difference – and that’s interest convergence, which is what critical race theory teaches us. And so we can begin to recognize these things. And to me, it’s motivating. But that ambiguity is for the sake of fear. And many people are afraid. People can be afraid, I gave up fear a little while ago. I am not afraid to be fired. I am not afraid to step away from a job. I am not afraid of those things. Because I know that what I’m doing is as right as I can be in that moment with the information that I know. And that motivates me to keep going. And so this idea of fear will stop people from doing the work before they ever start. That’s what the goal is.

I read an article this morning, I think it was from NBC, it was talking about parent coalitions who are attacking school boards and all of those things. And so that’s the goal. If they start from the top and get people on the bottom to do the work, then they don’t have to do anything. They just write the language, they say the language, and then all of these people – I won’t say they’re on the bottom, but they’re not in those positions of legislative power – those people, those grassroots organizations, they’re going to do the work of asking their kid every day what they talked about, or asking to see people’s lesson plans. Or even some people will probably ask to go in and observe classrooms. So it’s like, there’s this level, and then there’s minions who will go out and do this work when they don’t even understand what they’re doing. But what they too see is change. And they don’t want that type of change for whatever reasons. I don’t necessarily care to understand them. Because this fear of losing even that social power is so motivating that people will spend thousands of dollars to hire lawyers or sue schools or sue school boards or to try to pass particular different types of injunctions or amendments. They will do all of this work. They will spend all the time. But how much time in your life? How much privilege do you have to be able to devote this much time to tearing down something that is going to make people be seen and treated as equal? When we reach true racial equity, everyone will be better. And that’s my motivation. That’s my goal. Whether people understand it now or whether they get to see it in 50 or 150 years.

Sam Goldman 19:18

This fear aspect that you were pinpointing I think works on both sides, the teacher and the educator, their fear and their self-censoring. And the fear that gets tapped into by these fascists of you’re losing power, what you’ve come to believe as true is being challenged. So I think that is really important. And it’s important that those who care about whether white supremacy is upheld and enshrined or whether it’s dismantled that we don’t kow to that fear.

Chanelle Wilson 19:55

This idea of like what people have known to be true, like their experience, these are things that traditional lies, education and curriculum, they perpetuate the status quo that doesn’t actually exist. Of course, I’ve had some students who are in opposition to the ways that I teach and try to help to understand the world. And they said, “Well, this doesn’t make any sense. Because how could it have been hundreds of years of this, this doesn’t line up with my experience.” And the thing is, with critical race theory, even though people aren’t actually teaching the theory, if you understand it, and it’s a framework for your action, then it helps people to see beyond their experience, and to see what other people are experiencing. But if we put a stop to that, we’ll never do that work, we will maintain this Eurocentric white-centric space, that doesn’t really work for very many white children, it doesn’t work for them either. But if we can continue to perpetuate this false reality, and get people to ascribe to that and then try to recreate that, then again, the people in “power” or who want to maintain white supremacy, they don’t have to do the work. All they have to do is say the words and then all of those people who are disadvantaged as a result of racism as well, even though they do experience particular moments of privilege, then they’ll continue to fight against what we all actually do need.

Sam Goldman 21:07

You spoke about this a little bit, but I think it’s important to return to. Why do you think this is happening? And what’s their goal? What would them achieving look like? What is driving it? What are they trying to win here?

Chanelle Wilson 21:22

I don’t know. But I have some thoughts. So I’m thinking about this kind of this Make America Great ideology. There’s never made sense to me. But it doesn’t matter. Because it doesn’t have to make sense that this catchy people will go with it. And so this idea of making America great, but I think that people want to return to this space closer to like the 40s and 50s, where patriarchy ruled white supremacy rule was comfortable in that life was predictable. We know who’s on top, we know who’s on the bottom, we know who’s going to be fighting to get a little higher, we don’t necessarily have to worry about doing anything differently. People want to return to this idea of not having to do anything differently. Because if we have to do something differently, then we have to confront all of the racial stress that we’ve experienced, we have to confront white supremacy, we have to confront the patriarchy, we have to confront religious superiority and different privileges that exists in particular ways, we have to do that work. It would require people to be uncomfortable, it would require people to see their life as not being able to exercise the same privileges and social power that they have enjoyed. And it would require your average white person who’s not in the same top 20% to really take stock of their actual position. So if we’re thinking about even during slavery, your average white person didn’t have slaves, they couldn’t afford it. But if they could create the division with race, it would make those people — even though they weren’t enslaved, but they were absolutely living in abject poverty — if they could see themselves as being better than slaves or indigenous people. That social power, that social privilege and positioning is what has helped us to maintain that system even hundreds of years from now. And so I don’t think that your average person thinks of this, and I’m saying white people, but there are people of color who agree with these particular sentiments for different reasons.

My thought is that to achieve actual equity, your average white person has to understand that they don’t have the power that they think even though there are privileges that come along with that. If people can use critical race theory or race to divide, then it will impede people actually coming together and uniting around economic justice, which is the biggest one. So I think there is this wanting to return to these golden days that didn’t actually exist. But there was enough economic stability for people to imagine that life was okay. Even though it wasn’t, because we see only 20-30 years from then that the economy is terrible. The country’s relatively poorly run. The infrastructure needs a lot of support. Focusing on race and issues of race helps people distract from the real problems, and distracting from the real problems continues to grow the 1% and the other 99% they just fight amongst each other for nothing.

Sam Goldman 24:10

I think it’s really important, you know, situating the history that people both want to return to, and also continuing to benefit from. I think that is part of what’s so challenging for those who want to maintain power. What does it mean if you have a populace that begins to question where the wealth of this nation came from originally, and continues to this day to profit from? It’s a basic but painful truth for many people that there would be no United States without slavery and the genocide of Native people. Very profoundly as it exists today it comes from chaining human beings and having human beings as property. What a profound challenge to everything that exists today if people were able to confront the crimes of this country. I wonder whether you think that the forces involved in this onslaught of anti-education, are connected? Do you think in some ways, are you seeing any common trends with those laws and the ones that are seeking to ban protests and restrict voter access, the voter suppression laws? I was thinking one place where I thought that this was really apparent, was in Florida, where they have kind of the trifecta of all three of those things. And it’s no shock that Trump protege Ron DeSantis is there. I was wondering if you’re seeing that as a larger theme, do you think that they’re connected?

Chanelle Wilson 25:45

I hadn’t thought of it until this moment, but they are connected. And it points me back to what some people say is the purpose of education, to develop an informed citizenry, so that they can vote. But thinking about voter suppression laws, even what I see sometimes as a misuse of free speech, and this attack on equity-focused anything, and the full recognition that schools are spaces and places where everyone in this country has to experience something. Now, I guess some people don’t vote, many people don’t vote, a lot of people don’t vote. But in recent years, the GOP or Republicans have seen particular political upsets in spaces where people of color have decided to go out and take action using their votes. So we think about the president and say, like midterms and primaries, and those things, but all those average political positions, council people, judges, prosecutors, and depending on where you are, those things are decided by people who vote. The more that it has become popular to get people to vote, and not just in the presidential elections, but in all of them, the more that people are able to see the power of their vote, and the more people want to use that power as a privilege citizen, because like, we don’t even have to get into all the people who are disenfranchised, through structural and for political reasons. Thinking about people who are now beginning to embrace this privilege of citizenship to vote, that’s one thing. Thinking about schools as being places where people are beginning to be informed about historical influences, and how we’ve gotten to this space, that’s another. Putting those two things together creates the perfect storm for change. It creates the perfect strategy for equity. But we can’t have equity. Because if we had equity, then people who had actual economic power and privileges, they would actually have to give something up, even though they’d still be very rich, they still have all the money to do all the things that they want to do.

How did the country start? It started by stealing land and bringing enslaved people in order to economically exploit the situation. And now, if people are voting. If people are learning about how this country actually was founded, if people are learning about how the country maintains its power, then people are probably going to want to change that, which means that money then has to change, economic policies will have to change because people are paying attention. People are voting, people are saying something, people are recognizing what is actually happening. And I wouldn’t say that I think that many politicians see the bigger picture. They get caught up in what’s being told to them to act within. And really if we achieve justice, it would be economic justice, and economic justice would be racial justice, racial justice would be gender justice, reproductive rights. All of those things would then trickle down and follow because they’re all connected. And so what we have to do in order to maintain these huge economic inequalities that keep people separate and keep groups of people fighting against each other, we have to pick something. And race is always perfect, because race has been made to be so uncomfortable in this country and made to be something that we don’t talk about. So we use race, right, race is perfect. Gender is a little tough, because it’s like, oh, I have mom. People aren’t willing to see beyond that. But race is easy, because race was created for the purpose of division. And now it’s being used as a way to divide. Race was created to divide. It is doing exactly what it’s supposed to do. And time and time again, it becomes the perfect strategy to stop people from uniting. And that’s another goal to stop people from uniting. Because people from last year, and a few years before, have begun to unite in really beautiful ways and those things must be stopped.

Sam Goldman 29:16

That’s so funny, because I was just about to ask you about the claim of division. You know, one of the biggest focal points in their attack is the 1619 Project, which is something that, thank goodness, is being used in some high schools. So thank you, teachers! Just yesterday, Cotton and McConnell introduced a bill to defund the 1619 Project curriculum. Through “Saving American History Act,” legislation to prohibit the use of federal funds to teach the 1619 Project by K to 12 schools or school districts schools that teach the 1619 Project would also be ineligible for federal professional development grants. Some states directly named the 1619 Project in their legislation like Florida does. One of the claims that they make, in addition to being anti-American, which is so false. My top criticism, honestly of the 1619 Project, is that it is way too pro-American. In my opinion, I don’t think that there can be redemption until there is no America. But none of the journalists state that, in fact, they all are trying to redefine America as a hopeful place. And I think that it’s so wrong that they’re being demonized in the way that they are. It’s a tremendous asset and contribution to history education, that we have this tool. But the other thing, in addition is that they’re being called divisive. And so that’s why I really thought that your remarks about: no, no, no, it’s not the vision that they’re afraid of, it’s unity that they’re afraid of. And I thought that that was a really interesting take on the divisiveness. Do you think that just by virtue of telling history that that divides people?

Chanelle Wilson 31:05

No. But I do think that telling history, from a non-white male historical perspective, makes people have to confront uncomfortable realities, and uncomfortable truths. And so because people don’t want to be too uncomfortable, then they will fight against that. And that’s sometimes for people who are white, but I have had Black parents who don’t want me to teach about race. They want their kid to be able to experience some level of hope. They’re like, “why would you try to crush their dreams right now?” I’m not crushing their dreams, what I’m trying to do is inform them, and once they become informed, then they can achieve their dreams and full recognition of historical impact and potentially be able to predict obstacles and be able to maneuver them to work around them to navigate the system well. But if we set them up with this mindset of meritocracy, and that anyone can achieve anything, and all they have to do is go to school, that’s a lie. And I love school, I want them to stay here. But I want them to know that there are things that they are going to face in their adult life, that they have to be aware of, that they have to be mindful of if they want to achieve a particular level of success. Now, of course, we do have exceptions to that rule, but your average person has to navigate racism all the way up to the top and even try to move beyond it in order to stay there because it is uncomfortable. And it is something that you’re going to experience. And so thinking about this idea of talking about race as being dividing, what I really hear people saying when they say that is that talking about race is making me uncomfortable, but I have the choice to dissociate myself from that, and pretend as if it doesn’t exist.

I grew up in a wholly white suburban space. I know exactly what it’s like to have two codes, which are have to act a particular way or adopt these whiteness beliefs, principles, practices in order to achieve I know what that means. I know what it feels like. And some people do that from birth to death. And that’s cool. That’s something I decided to reject, because it wasn’t making me feel comfortable. And so for people who are in particular positions of power, they can dissociate and continue to live their life in the way they’ve always lived in. Because racism has created a space where they get to enjoy that level of comfort. If you are Black, or a person of color or indigenous, you have to see these things, you have to see the divide and figure out okay, there’s a divide, how can I work around that? How can I jump over the line? Or do I decide to stay back over here? So people who are in those positions of comfort, have the ability to say, “Oh, it’s dividing us.” It is not dividing us, we’ve already been divided. You have just allowed a sprinkling of some people in, and then you’ve locked up some other people so you don’t have to see them. And then you kept people in these neighborhoods so that you don’t have to see that; the divide exists. If we know and are purposeful about the divide, then we can begin to pull it away brick by brick. But if we just pretend like there’s not a huge brick wall there, people just keep running into it. But others have a door and they got the passcode. And they can just walk through. Those people want to be comfortable. My goal, even in my teaching, is for my students to see that brick wall. And they’ll be able to set up a ladder and pull people up and over or begin to dismantle that wall. But the wall is there. We’re already divided. And we don’t have to be and many people don’t want to be anymore. There are a lot of people do. But there are growing numbers of people who don’t want to be divided. And that gives me hope.

Sam Goldman 34:14

I wanted to go back to right after the election, because I think this is relevant to what we see happening. Leonard Pitts Jr. wrote, I think, I want to say for the Miami Herald, but it could have been for another paper, he wrote right after the election, that weekend edition. He wrote regarding the results of the election that “it strips bare all the glossy claims about who we are as a country, underscoring the fact that in a meaningful sense, we are not one country at all anymore, but two sharing the same borders.” And he went on to say “the last time that happened with the Civil War, it took four years and 750,000 lives to force us back into some semblance of oneness. Even then the seams of fracture were always visible. Unlike that break, this one is not starkly geographic, South versus North. No, this one is city versus country, college educated versus high school educated and most significantly future versus past. Meaning that yesterday, this was a nation where white people were the majority. And tomorrow, it will be one where they are not.” I wonder what your thoughts on this, no longer one country, but to where and whether you think that it’s purely demographic, or you think that there’s some other forces at play?

Chanelle Wilson 35:40

Even the idea of one country, I struggle with that language, because politically, sure, the United States is one country. But even in the founding of the United States, I don’t agree with the founding of the United States as even being something that was necessary. I think it’s James Baldwin, who writes about it, talks about it. But as a Black person in this country, I knew I was an American citizen. But that never meant anything until I left the United States and lived somewhere else for a particular period of time. And the first time I had to fill out paperwork, and it said, nationality, and I wrote American. So I knew that’s what I was supposed to write. But I never felt like an American. You know, I don’t belong here. It never felt like someplace where I belong. So even this language of one country, to me, it’s idealistic. And it is not true in a political sense. But in the ways that people live their lives, the way that I have lived my life as a Black person in this country, typically, in predominately white spaces, I’ve never felt like I belonged here. And people make me feel as if I don’t belong here every single day. So thinking about this not being one country, but it being two now. And that is the difference between future and past. It didn’t work for Black people. Damn sure, it didn’t work for indigenous people. It did not work for people of Mexican ancestry. It didn’t work for Asians, it didn’t work for Jewish people. It didn’t work for Japanese people. It didn’t work for Chinese people. So who is this country for? This country is only for white people. Now, other people have been allowed to come here because of particular economic gain and exploitation and things of that nature.

But this country was made for white people, still operates for white people, and everyone else just is supposed to fit in, they just want to come in and figure out their way to mesh it and figure it out. Don’t ask for too much. Be happy that you’re allowed to be here. Don’t make a ruckus. Don’t say anything, don’t have a brain, don’t learn. Don’t do any of those things. Oh, I’m sorry, I know it comes off facetiously and sarcastically, but that’s the truth. If we’re looking at documents, that is a truth. So thinking about this one country, now we’re two. College educated, and high school educated. Maybe this person was trying to get that high school educated people maybe voted for Trump, maybe didn’t. There’s a lot of college educated people who did. There’s a lot of college educated people who want this country to stay exactly the way it was because they’ve been able to experience a particular level of comfort. So thinking about us being one, not two. And I don’t even know that that matters. I think that the past and the future matters, because we have people who recognize that none of this works for your average, quote, American citizen. It doesn’t.

So why wouldn’t we try something new? This whole experiment has failed. Their experiment has failed. And so let’s try something new. But because we’ve been doing this experiment for so long, people just want to keep going. It’s okay to change. But change is hard. Change requires discomfort. Change requires giving up power, giving up some privilege, but still being able to operate and your human bodily autonomy, which as a woman, I don’t even get to do that. Like we haven’t even put reproductive rights on the table alongside all the rest of these things. And so one country, two, to me, it doesn’t matter. What matters is “Do people feel welcome here? Are people afraid to walk out of their house and die? Do I have to pray for every Black person I see walking down the street?” Because I’m just not sure what can happen to them? Do I have to pray for young Black boys who are riding their bicycle, because I’m just not sure what’s going to happen to them? So that’s unique, this idea of country. I’m not doing my work as an American citizen. I’m moving through my racial journey. But this American citizen journey, I don’t even pay attention to it. Because it’s not something that protects me.

Sam Goldman 39:10

I appreciate that perspective. And I want to end our conversation as I try to do with a little bit of hope grounded in reality and the actions that we can take to make that hope not just manifest but to make that hope achievable. Valerie Strauss wrote in The Washington Post about what happened this past Saturday, June 12. She wrote “thousands of educators and others gathered virtually and in person at historic locations in more than 20 cities to make clear that they would resist efforts in at least 15 Republican led states to restrict what teachers can say in class about racism, sexism, and oppression in America.” And “they had signed a pledge to teach the truth and that pledge ‘We the undersigned at Educators refuse to lie to young people about US history and current events, regardless of the law.'” I’m just wondering, what do you think that people who are listening? What can they do? What can they do to support teachers, educators, and teaching the troops?

Chanelle Wilson 40:20

I think about it as being a fight that we’re all involved in, and one that we all have a role in. And so thinking about how people can support teachers and educators and even school boards, school districts, who are trying to do the right thing, there’s so many ways. I always encourage people to figure out what is their sphere of influence? And so if a person’s sphere of influence is the PTA, how do they begin to have conversations there? How do they push back against discriminatory language? How do they disrupt those moments of contention, where you can either ignore the white supremacy and just pretend like everything’s okay, or kind of like, you know, jump in headfirst? Or just ask the question. So what are your spheres of influence?

So that’s one place. Another is participating in school board votes. Depending on where you are, what your municipal practices are regarding on school boards and voting those type things, how do you get out and encourage people to become informed about who candidates are because sometimes that’s not always quite apparent. Participating in those ways to put people into these positions of power, where we know that we have people we hope that we can trust. Of course, people are human beings, they make mistakes, you know, we can’t count on everything. But if we are participating in those policies and those practices, then that’s another level of influence. So voting and or supporting particular school board members. If it is teaching your children on the other side of what they learn in school. And so sometimes a teacher like me, they’re gonna do it anyway. And there are some who are more afraid. And I wouldn’t judge people who choose not to teach about race, if their job is on the line, because they have responsibilities. So some people won’t do it.

What can parents or community members do to supplement education that isn’t happening? Or there can only be just small bits and pieces that are happening in school buildings? How can communities come together to make that community knowledge and not just something that we think schools are supposed to teach? And then for me with my niece, these are the things that we talk about. Even that is some level of influence, because she’s having these conversations with me, with my mother, with her mother. And so we have to continue to disrupt in the ways that we can, and sometimes those ways will feel comfortable, and sometimes they’ll be deeply uncomfortable. But recognizing that we are doing the best with the information that we have to disrupt patterns of white supremacy and patriarchy and the status quo, we can do something, even if it’s just the conversation, it’s just the phone call, it’s just posting something on Facebook. Everyone has a way to be acting, and I want people to take that up. And if we’re all acting in the ways that we can together at the same time, we’re building momentum, so it is getting bigger. We will face more pushback, and that’s okay, we continue to push back and we’re going to go until we push all the way over, but everyone has something that they can do, whether it’s small or whether it’s grand.

Sam Goldman 43:04

Thank you so much, Dr. Wilson for taking the time to chat with us and share your expertise and perspective. You can follow Dr. Wilson on Twitter @DrCEWilson. Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. It’s worth noting that scholars such as Jason Stanley, have pointed out that these memory wars restricting that which we aren’t even allowed to remember, are akin to attempts to restrict Holocaust education in Germany.

We will be back with another episode on Sunday, featuring Dahlia Lithwick of Slate on the cost of no consequences for Trump. But if you want to hear more, check out last week’s episode. @aku_kulu says “the politics and legislation of ‘morality’ in America, a great podcast of truth telling and myth dispelling at Refuse Fascism, featuring the conversation with @SamBGoldman and @AntheaButler.” He follows that with a line from her book, “racism is a feature, not a bug of American evangelicalism.” If you’re looking for something else to listen to, check out last week’s episode White Evangelical Racism. a conversation with Dr. Anthea Butler about her new book.

Thanks again for listening to Refuse Fascism. If you want to help the show, it’s simple. You can rate and review us on Apple podcast or your listening platform of choice you can chip in to support the show by clicking the donate button over at Refuse fascism.org or Venmo @Refuse-Fascism, cash app $RefuseFascism, and let us know it’s off of hearing this podcast. We want to hear from you. So share Your comments, ideas, questions, or lend a skill tweet me @SamBGoldman. Or you can drop me a line at [email protected] or leave a voicemail by calling 917-426-7582. You can also record as a voice message simply by going to anchor.fm/Refuse-Fascism and clicking the button there. You might even hear yourself on a future episode. Thanks to Richie Marini, Lina Thorne, Mark Tinkleman for helping produce this episode. Until next time, in the name of humanity, we refuse to accept a fascist America