Khaled Beydoun: Islamophobia As Ideological Virus

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Transcript:

Episode 74

Sun, 8/29 4:22PM • 54:23

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, fascist, country, war, islamophobia, fascism, texas, called, terror, racism, trump, afghanistan, state, power, anti, democrats, muslim, dan patrick, genocidal, fight

SPEAKERS

Coco Das, Khaled Beydoun, Sam Goldman

Khaled Beydoun    00:00

I think the first thing to do is to think about Islamophobia in the ways that we do just broadly about racism… The war on terror is far more than just these international military projects that we saw unfold in the last twenty years and that we’ll see unfold even more in the coming years. It’s also a domestic policing and racial project… Focus on {inaudible} bills have sort of morphed into a focus on anti critical race theory, legislation. It’s all this sort of concerted attack on anything that appears to be un-American… The War on Terror has sort of spread into an ideological virus.

Sam Goldman    00:51

Welcome to Episode 74 of the Refuse Fascism backpass. This podcast is brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of this show. Refuse Fascism exposes analyzes, and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in this country. Today, we’re sharing an interview with Khaled Beydoun, law professor at Wayne State University and author of American Islamophobia: Understanding the Roots and Rise of Fear.    Then we’ll listen to a conversation that Coco Das, editor of Refuse fascism.org and fellow host of the show and I had just the other day. The topic on many of our minds this week continues to be the situation in Afghanistan. The deadline for U.S. troop withdrawal looms, and refugee evacuation flights are ending, with the US accepting a paltry fraction of the number of people who desperately want to leave Afghanistan. The attack on the Kabul airport this past week, carried out apparently by ISIS in Afghanistan gives a glimpse into the volatility and horror that will continue regardless of Biden’s threats of “revenge” and the bombs that get dropped in their wake. It doesn’t hurt to remind ourselves and others that ISIS was a direct byproduct of the Global War on Terror. So yet again, the responsibility for this chaos lies with the U.S. This deadly feedback loop between U.S. imperialism and theocratic Islamic fundamentalism is one key crisis that the fascists in this country aim to resolve on their genocidal terms. For anything better to come about, the people in this country across the political spectrum must begin to shift their allegiance away from America First, and towards putting humanity first.    There’s so much going on, it can be overwhelming to sort through. However, what I appreciated about talking with Khaled was his clarity in breaking through all the ways this country has aimed to dehumanize Muslim, Arab and Asian people, both at home and abroad.    Our hearts are with, and our minds are on, the people of Afghanistan, who have endured 20 years of war at the hands of the US government, and now Taliban rule. As we approach the anniversary of 9/11 and the launch of the US so-called “War on Terror,” we are providing more coverage on anti-Muslim, anti-Arab, anti-Asian hate post 9/11 in this country and the so called war on terror’s role in leading to the rise of fascism in this country. To get into this, I’m honored to bring Khaled Beydoun, a law professor and author of American Islamophobia: Understanding the Roots and Rise of Fear. He is a native of Detroit and tweets @KhaledBeydoun. Welcome, Khaled, thanks for joining us.

Khaled Beydoun    03:43

Thanks for having me.

Sam Goldman    03:44

Now that Afghanistan is in the forefront of people’s minds, people are thinking of the start of the war post 9/11, and how we got from there to here, I think it’s also worthwhile thinking about some of the other things that happened in this country post 9/11: the lynching of Muslims, the attack on Muslim storefronts, the bombing of mosques, the orchestrated terror, if you will, and how did we get from that to the Muslim ban? From there to here, and where do you see this going?

Khaled Beydoun    04:14

You know, it’s tough to say, it kind of feels like we’re back in 2001. The Taliban have come back power. We have this surge of Afghan refugees leaving the country. There’s a lot of sort of nostalgia for what took place two decades ago and we’re approaching the two decades anniversary of 9/11 in a couple of weeks.    How did we get to this point? I write in my book, Islamophobia is the spawn, it’s the progeny of the War on Terror. The entire war, the comprehensive war, the global attacks on places like Afghanistan, the unjustified and illegal war in Iraq, but also the domestic surveillance policy that we see here stateside in the wake of the 9/11 terror attack laws like the Patriot Act, which justified really nefarious forms of surveillance against some Arab American immigrant communities across the country. The Muslim ban, obviously, which comes later, counter-radicalization, spying on Muslim programs spearheaded by law enforcement departments across the country. These were policies that came in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks that essentially were built on this cornerstone that expressions of Muslim identity were tied to terrorism.    The more you look Muslim, the more you freely exercise your Muslim faith, which is safeguarded by the First Amendment that gives rise to fear and suspicion. So you have as a consequence of that the rise of Islamophobia, which politicians like the Tea Party capitalized on in 2010. And then Donald Trump when he was really rising to prominence in 2015, really capitalizes on Islamophobia as a political tool. And that opens the door for the possibility of a policy so brazenly bigoted, like the Muslim ban, to become a reality in 2018. So that’s sort of the evolution of how we get to where we are in terms of this entrenched culture of Islamophobia that is rooted in the United States. The war in Afghanistan is, in my opinion, one of those salient tentacles that make it a possibility.

Sam Goldman    06:07

I really appreciate you walking us through that evolution. You mentioned the Tea Party movement. I think that a lot of people forget that and its tremendous role in advancing what I would call a fascist program. I don’t think that it was solely a re-election tactic. I think that their aims are bigger. I’m remembering, I think I’m right in the time period, but please correct me if I’m wrong. This was when there was a lot of the so- called anti-Sharia laws that got passed in utter lunacy.    That makes me think that there’s the consequences of all of the Tea Party movement and the ridiculous laws that went forward at that time, and then you got Trump, right? I’m wondering, what do you see as like the legacy or consequences of having Trump stay in power for four years in relation to Islamophobia, or more broadly, anti-Arab, anti-Asian hate?

Khaled Beydoun    06:59

I’m always sort of reserved to talk about Trump in terms of legacy. Because it’s reflective, and it’s kind of presuming that Trump is gone. I think there’s this strong and historic possibility that Trump or Trumpism may rise back to power in a couple of years, given what’s going on in the country today. It’s important, and one thing I tried to do in my work, is to not tether Islamophobia as a product that’s exclusive to the right.    Racism, bigotry, all forms of animus and hate, tend to be more explicit and obvious when they’re coming from the right, which does not mean that it’s notn existent in coming from the left. It’s critical to identify how Democratic and liberal elements presided over the presidency and other branches of government sort of sowed the possibility for the rise of somebody like Trump. President Obama, for instance, established the counter-surveillance, counter-radicalization program in the United States, which seeded informants in Muslim communities in places like Detroit, my hometown; Minneapolis, home to a large Somali community; LA; Boston, making Muslim spaces like student associations, mosques, restaurants, spaces were informants loomed. That was a program that was spearheaded by a Democratic administration, which entrenches Islamophobia even deeper. It was what I call state-sponsored Islamophobia, even deeper, and spreads it onto the left, which says that Islamophobia, anti-Muslim bigotry is a justified and palatable form of bigotry, unlike, let’s say, anti-Black racism or anti Semitism or homophobia, which we should all fight and stand against. But there’s something acceptable as a consequence of the War on Terror to be Islamophobic, which which accepts it. So the Democrats had a strong hand in making it possible for Trump to claim the presidency. Obviously the Tea Party in 2010, you’re exactly right, something that’s neglected is the Tea Party, they spearheaded this anti-Sharia movement. But they didn’t look to the federal government. What they did is they seized upon state legislators. They advanced these anti-Sharia bills, and were very successful in advancing something like 200 to 300 bills in states across the country. If I recall correctly, only four or five states across the country did not have an anti-Sharia bill brought before their state legislature. So it’s all systemic. It’s all entwined to say that the Democrats also had a hand in sort of contributing to this broader grand narrative of Islamophobia that we see looming today and that opened the door for the rise of Trump. In my opinion, will open the door once again to a right wing populist of some kind, maybe Trump, to claim power again, if not in two years, definitely somewhere down the line. Populism isn’t going anywhere in the country. We’ve seen how the focus that actually builds that sort of morph into a focus on anti critical race theory legislation. It’s all this sort of concerted attack on anything that appears to be unAmerican, whatever that means.

Sam Goldman    09:47

In the last part of what you said I was recalling, in relation to the 1776 project of Trump, where he compared teachers who teach about racism and the real history of this country, with the Taliban.    Those teachers he compared with the Taliban. So I think that they are seeing a connection, where teachers who teach the truth or who call out these things are either communists or the Taliban, that those are your options. So I think that you’re completely right. I really appreciate the danger not being past, and making sure that we’re situating this in still a state of a looming threat, and that the Democrats are not off the hook in any sense in fostering a culture of hate against Muslims. It’s not only that state, the domestic, if you will, suppression and repression that our Muslim siblings were impacted by, but also seven wars at that time that were being waged under Obama. The extrajudicial killings, taking a new a new level. Trump took those to a whole other scale, in terms of of drone bombings. People did not see the wars in the same way, and were able to blind themselves to the realities that our siblings in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, the list goes on and on, were facing at the hands of our government. I want to shift to something that you see, yes, from the fascists, but also from those who claim to be feminists. The notion that saving Muslim women was a justification for the initial war in Afghanistan and the subsequent 20 years of war. Now this line is being reasserted. Was this ever a legitimate concern for the Empire? Do they ever actually raise the status of women in any self-sustaining way?

Khaled Beydoun    11:39

I’m gonna qualify the statement with obviously recognizing that I’m a male speaking on feminism, and sort of an outsider critique of feminism that I’ll offer, especially when it’s being weaponized by Western Empire. We see that a sort of potent tentacle of Western Empire colonization and dominion has always been this, it’s even tough to call it feminism in many ways, right?

Sam Goldman    12:04

I completely agree.

Khaled Beydoun    12:05

Because it kind of clashes with how I think about feminism. I guess their feminism is a monolithic and there are various forms. So this might be a more offensive form of feminism to say that it’s a responsibility of an imperial project to liberate women. And it’s very pernicious when it comes to Muslim communities, because the liberation of women is sort of premised on the presumption that we have to liberate them from very violent brown and Black Muslim men. That’s based on one of the central Islamophobic tenets, that there’s something hyper-masculine, violent about Islam. So we often only see Islam from a masculine lens, which leads to the erasure of Muslim women. That sliver of concerning Western feminism has always been used by governments in the United States, and even France to say, even domestically in that country, that it’s up to a white Western government to liberate Muslim women from from their men. And we see that happening again. There was a story that was really circulating in the media a couple of days ago that showed how this white woman from Oklahoma went on to save how she claimed to save these 11 Afghan girls were part of the robotics team. She overstated her role in that evacuation in the media loved it, because it was a white woman stepping in to save these young brown Muslim girls. So that story of Western feminism is always one that’s lauded and revered by Western elements. But it’s problematic because it oftentimes, sows the field, if you will, for violent war. That’s why I’m really concerned with it. And that’s why people who study wars on Muslim populations are always concerned with this white feminine savior complex, that oftentimes is the opening chapter of violent incursion in Muslim majority countries.   

Sam Goldman    13:50

I think that is really important. I don’t think that it was the aim in any sense. I think it’s a way to onboard people who should be very against and vocal against wars for empire. I think that any role that they stated in so called liberation, which I don’t believe can be bombed into existence, no matter how legitimate you think such claims are, was completely overstated.

Khaled Beydoun    14:16

That’s an important question that I don’t want to overlook, though. You asked a question about did the status of women improve at all after U.S. intervention? And the truth is it did.    It did in many ways. As a consequence of the the United States destabilizing Taliban rule. You saw women opening businesses, opening restaurants, shops, women becoming more prominent in politics. And I’m not an expert on bias, and I told you that. I’m an expert on the Global War on Terror and American intervention in Afghanistan, but I saw stories about how Afghan women were becoming mayors. So the status of women did improve in certain ways as a consequence of destabilization of the Taliban. But that goes back to your earlier point which is you can’t bomb a country into progress or bomb a country into improving on those grounds. But to ignore those realities, I think would would be ignoring the ways in which women did progress in recent years.

Sam Goldman    15:13

And I think that our responsibility is to support and express solidarity for those women who are continuing the fight for their rights, and to not use that as a justification for further U.S. intervention in that region, but to support and uplift and be there in whatever ways we can, including those who are able to financially for the women who are staying and fighting for their right to be journalists, or political leaders or whatever avenues people are fighting to pursue. I want to pivot in wrapping up this conversation to what you think the biggest myths are that need to be dispelled right now regarding the War on Terror related to that.    How can our listeners take action against Islamophobia that we see not only continuing, but in some ways rising in this moment?

Khaled Beydoun    16:06

So I think some of the biggest myths is to not think about the war on terror as simply a global project. We tend to sort of narrow it or understand it in ways that are just tied to conventional wars; the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, the droning of Yemen, Syria, Pakistan, and so on, and so forth. The War on Terror is far more than just these international military projects that we saw unfold in the last 20 years, and that we’ll see unfold even more in the coming years. It’s also a domestic policing and racial project as well to sort of curb the influence of the Muslim population. But also to address this rise of white anxiety that’s been taking place over the last two decades as a consequence of demographic shifts in the country becoming majority minority. We see the Global War on Terror. It’s fluid the same way we think about racism, right? I think a second correlated myth is we tend to think about racism as a phenomenon that declines gradually over time. And critical race theorists will tell you that racism is a dynamic and fluid sort of animal that is adaptive to prevailing political and cultural norms. That’s also true for the war on terror. It’s shifting depending on demographics and shifts in line with who’s in control of power, and that’s why you’re gonna see it in my opinion, rise again, if a Republican comes into office in the next couple of years. A third myth about the Global War on Terror that I think is of note is it sort of metastasized into not only an American project, but a project that other governments have seized upon to crack down and persecute their Muslim populations in their home countries, places like India, like I mentioned earlier. You know, the Hindufa project led by Modi is a outgrowth of the Global War on Terror. The War on Terror greenlit Modi’s ability to persecute Muslims in India. The Global War on Terror also greenlit China’s ability to crack down and place 2 million Uighur Muslims in concentration camps. The war on terror emboldened France’s ability to pass pernicious policies against Muslims in those countries. The war on terror enabled Quebec province at our doorstep to pass a hijab ban in its legislature last year. So the war on terror sort of spread into a ideological virus that other governments have seized upon to pass policies to police Muslims. So that’s the third myth is to think about it beyond just the sort of American experience.

Sam Goldman    18:33

For the listeners who are taking what you’ve been saying to heart and who want to do something, what can we do to help stop Islamophobia?

Khaled Beydoun    18:41

I think the first thing to do is to think about Islamophobia in the ways that we do just broadly about racism. I think it’s easy to sort of identify when racism is conspicuous. When somebody says a hateful slur, it’s easy to cast that individual is a racist. Typically that’s the kind of racism, that’s explicit expressed racism, that comes from the right. However, I think that as a consequence of what’s taking place in the country, in the last decade, we’ve learned that racism is far more than just explicit, right? It’s unconscious, it’s hidden.    Elements at the center left are sort of more skillful at disguising the racism. That’s also true for Islamophobia. Islamophobia is easy to identify when it’s coming from Trump or the Tea Party, because it’s right there up in your face. But I think one thing I’d recommend is for us to be a bit more vigilant in identifying Islamophobia when it’s not explicit ,when it’s coming from elements that we don’t immediately cast or identify as islamophobes … people like Bill Maher for instance, right?

Sam Goldman    19:40

I’m shaking my head right now being like “ugh!”

Khaled Beydoun    19:44

You know, what’s what’s crazy about it is I learned a lot from the show over the years, and I find myself still watching his show because he addresses really important topics tied to the environment, for instance, or other sort of issues that I find to be important. But somebody like him, who at least is viewed as a champion of the left, and has a majority left-leaning audience, is always spewing damaging Islamophobic tropes. Hillary Clinton when she ran for office would only make mention of Muslims when it came to national security and having Muslims be the eyes and ears of the state and Muslim communities. For me, it’s really key to tell followers to be more vigilant when the Islamophobia is coming from elements and individuals that you traditionally wouldn’t tie to Islamophobia.

Sam Goldman    20:26

Thank you for that. And thank you for joining us and sharing your perspective and your expertise. I encourage people to check out the show notes where there is a link to Khalid’s book and a link to where you can follow him on Twitter. So again, thanks Khaled.

Khaled Beydoun    20:41

Thanks so much, Samantha.

Sam Goldman    20:43

That was Khaled Beydoun.    His book ‘American Islamophobia: Understanding the Roots and Rise of Fear’ is available on his website, KhaledBeydoun.com and linked from the show notes. For more on Afghanistan and the end of the unjust war. I hope you’ll listen to last week’s episode which featured a conversation I had with Matthew Hoh. I want to be sure to shout out the educators, parents and others that came out for the Zinn Education Project’s Teach Truth Days of Action this past weekend, which we were happy to endorse, along with many others. Cheers for standing up against the fascist attacks on real history education, including about white supremacy, and standing with those teaching the truth and the students trying to learn it.    Lately, we’ve had to talk a lot about Texas, and we’ll continue to do so in my conversation with Coco. But we also need to talk about Mississippi. The GOP response to Covid 19 illustrates many of the features of their overall fascist program, white supremacy, xenophobia, Christian fascism, and unhinged conspiracy theories. The Christian fascist element of this death cult was exemplified this past week by Mississippi governor Tate Reeves. Mississippi leads the nation in COVID cases with approximately 127 new cases per 100,000 according to an analysis of data by the New York Times. At a fundraiser this past Thursday, Reeves stated “I’m often asked by some of my friends on the other side of the aisle about COVID. And why does it seem like folks in Mississippi and maybe in the Mid South are a little less scared, shall we say,” He went on to say, “when you believe in eternal life, when you believe that living on this earth is but a blip on the screen, then you don’t have to be so scared of things.” As a state with one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country, where 93% of the ICU beds are in use, 63% occupied by COVID-19 patients. This is a prayer at the altar of death with a worldview that sees COVID-19 as a plague from God, and a sign of end times. It is welcomed as true believers. Mass death and the need for mass sacrifice is nothing to fear. However, for those of us on the side of humanity, public health, science, this is something to relentlessly oppose en masse as lives hang in the balance.    Next, a conversation with Coco Das, co editor of RefuseFascism.org. I am really excited, as I’m sure you are to, to get to talk with Coco Das. For those who frequently listen to the Refuse Fascism podcast, which I hope you do, she is an editor for the RefuseFascism.org website and is a frequent guest and occasional guest host for the show, and I am glad to say a good friend of mine. Coco has a new piece up on RefuseFascism.org that you need to check out. It’s called ‘Genocidal and Deadly Serious Dan Patrick, Texas Fascist Lunatic Scapegoats Black People for the Pandemic’. So we’re going to talk about Texas, because Coco happens to live there. Welcome, Coco.

Coco Das    24:23

Hi, Sam. Good to be here.

Sam Goldman    24:25

Good to see you on this Saturday morning. Thanks for doing this with me. Every episode recently, I’ve had to talk about Texas, and what the hell is going on? This is an area where in my opinion, we really see the fascist movement, not just gaining steam, but really having a solid foothold and being able to advance their program. And I guess I kind of feel like it’s without any really fight for those on the side of humanity. We’re basically seeing fascist mobs unleashed to attack people in every sphere of life, whether it be around science, and not wanting people to die from a deadly pandemic, people being unleashed to literally rip masks off of people. You have Abbott, the governor of Texas saying you can’t have a vaccine mandate. Whether it be about women’s most fundamental rights, their right to control their bodies and reproductive lives; on Wednesday, there’s going to be this law going into effect that makes abortion illegal after six weeks of pregnancy, before most women even know they’re pregnant. The law is basically a bounty law that not only encourages private citizens anywhere in this country to sue anyone who can be seen as helping someone in Texas seek an abortion. That means doctors, friends, rape counselors, donors, even, who provide financial support, maybe even the Uber driver who takes somebody to get the abortion. They can drag them to court, and that person can be fined up to $10,000. They’re unleashing this fascist vigilantism across all spheres. I forgot education, going after teachers for teaching the truth about the real history of this country. So basically, what’s going on with Texas, Coco?

Coco Das    26:15

If you’re living in Texas right now, you actually can see right before your eyes, what it looks like, and what it means for a fascist government to consolidate. And in the absence of a response that is commensurate with the danger, where you really do have a party that is setting up, not just laying the groundwork, like setting up the infrastructure to establish an ethno-fascist apartheid state. That’s what’s happening here. People may not know this, but white people in the Republican base is a minority, and I’m not putting all my people into one category, but the white voter base or the white population is a minority in Texas. They’re still the largest group, but they don’t have more than 50% of the population. I think it’s about 42% or 41%. And that’s been true since before 2010; I don’t know the exact year. But at the same time, the Republican Party here has, one, become even more Christian fascist, has moved further and further to the right, and also has established one party rule in the state, basically, and has the toughest voter ID laws in this country. That trajectory has just continued and continued. And it really breaks down the myth that demographic shifts equal power. In this case, the demographic shifts are making one side very zealous, and determined to hold on to power. We do have a situation where there’s minority rule in this country. So that’s the basic thing going on. We can tease apart a lot of the particulars of it, but it’s certainly ominous and accelerating. Things seem to be happening at a accelerated pace, where the Republican Party — and I talk in the article about this Trinity, which is the Governor, Greg Abbott, Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick and Ken Paxton, the Attorney General.    With more and more outrage each day, they really took a lot of cues from Trump, just bombarding people in bludgeoning people with their agenda.

Sam Goldman    28:26

So I think that that’s a good place to go. I want to just underscore, this Trinity is really showing the ways in which they are intensifying these conflicts that represent deep divisions in society, divisions around white supremacy, and whether that is going to be further enshrined and upheld and violently fought for; whether it be in Texas with the border wall, the whitewashing of history, and, as you really powerfully speak to, around COVID, abortion, voter suppression, all of those are part of this fight. If people are thinking that in this moment, we’re going to get back to normal, Texas is a perfect example of why that is not so. Before we talk about where is this resistance to some of the most egregious things going down in this country right now, let’s talk about COVID for a moment. It’s something that you really walk people through in your piece. I am wondering what compelled you to write about it, and what you think people are missing in this moment in terms of their understanding?

Coco Das    29:35

I’ve really been struggling with trying to understand why the Republicans are willing to sacrifice so much of their base. I mean, the number of people who are dying right now from COVID is in par with the white population of Texas, and it is a big part of their base. I haven’t actually written a lot since January. I’ve just been kind of thinking about these things to figure out and observe what’s going on. And then I saw Dan Patrick. I saw the clips of what he said. I knew that there was more underlying everything that they’re doing around COVID, but I just felt like this was a real leap in a genocidal kind of response. It did remind me of what the response was sort of at the beginning of COVID, where there was a lot of just scapegoating of China and immigrants, and even Black people, you know, like the people who were hardest hit, were being the ones scapegoated also for the disease.    For people who don’t know and who have not read the article, I hope you do, but Dan Patrick went on the Laura Ingraham show. When she sort of fake questioned him about don’t Republicans have some responsibility for this surge? It is so ridiculous, and so unneeded when we have the technology, and we have the means to actually defeat this, that people are refusing to take the vaccine, and also that the government of Texas is actually putting roadblocks in the way of people getting this life saving vaccine. When she questioned Dan Patrick, he said deliberately vaguely, the largest group of unvaccinated people is African Americans, and 90% of them vote for Democrats. So what are Democrats doing about this? There was so much to unpack there, but one thing I really feel is happening is that this fascist leadership in Texas is actually laying the groundwork for a genocidal response and a genocidal future. These are people they would rather get rid of, if that means that they have to sacrifice some of their voters, I don’t think that they think that voting matters at all. Actually, I don’t think that’s how they’re going to stay in power. They’re actually creating the mechanisms to stay in power, despite elections. And so the base here is very violent, they’re armed to the teeth. I’ve encountered them face to face, they’re very revanchist. You put out a so-called “dog whistle” like that, really, it’s a bullhorn. You put you put out a message like that, and what is this base going to do? They’re going to go out and blame African Americans. And there’s a potential for violent backlash there. Not to mention that the biggest group numerically of unvaccinated people is white people. And the biggest group of people who have vaccine refusal are the white Republicans. So it’s also a deliberate lie. You deliberately mislead people, and then you double down on it. And I just felt like it was so sinister and so ominous. And the response to it was, you know, yeah, it’s racist. It’s, you know, is this really true? But no one is actually looking at the fascist nature of it. And the fascist nature of how all of these pieces are completely altering society and governance. We say on RefuseFascism.org: Fascism is not just a pendulum swing, it’s not just the worst of reactionary politics, it’s a change in the way society is governed. And that’s happening here. And Dan Patrick’s little clip on the Fox News did a lot to further advance that.

Sam Goldman    33:13

Yeah, I think 100%. That is the understanding that people are not getting. One of the things that stood out to me the most in what you wrote was that closing paragraph — again, read her article, share it, but I’m gonna quote it anyway. Where you write: “The Texas GOP will fight tooth and nail for certain ‘freedoms’, while having no qualms about denying women the right to control their own reproduction, and Black voters the right to access their constitutional voting rights. What they tout in a language of rights choice and freedom is complete and utter bullshit, almost laughable in its hypocrisy if it wasn’t so genocidal in its application. The right they are protecting for their voters, let’s be honest, even if it kills them, is the metaphorical right to burn crosses to terrorize all those they seek to dominate.” Illustrated again, in just this past week. I think, Friday, we learned that the Texas anti-mask “freedom rally” organizer is hospitalized, fighting for his life after contracting COVID. I think that your point is really essential on: it’s not about losing their voters. This is a quandary of their own making, and they’re willing to sacrifice for an agenda and this agenda is fascism. This agenda is creating this Republic of Texas where you not only foment xenophobia, racism, misogyny, the worst of American chauvinism, not to forget the oppressive so called traditional values, anti-trans laws making advances. You rely on, not only foment it, and you’re doing that with a concrete aim of getting rid of any democratic civil rights. That’s what the endgame is in the consolidation of fascism, and making this a model for the rest of the country. That this is what we’re going for, and this is what it looks like, and it is a qualitative change in the form of rule. And it’s galvanizing, not just a fascist social base, which it definitely is. I think that your point about this violent movement that’s being unleashed and in all these years is really important. But it’s also within the halls of power. And this is something that is being sought to be replicated in state legislatures across the country, and part of a move to revamp, not just re-energize, but reassert Trumpism, fascism, on a national stage. So I think that this is really important. And I’m wondering, what’s it like in Texas right now?

Coco Das    35:45

I went to my first public event [since the pandemic began, editors]. We were outdoors in and masked up, and people are just appalled. And yet, it’s very hard for them to get out of this mindset that the only way out is through the electoral system, even as that whole system is being torn up. When I finally got to talk to some people, they are completely worried and shocked and appalled, but there is a lot of work to do in helping people to get out of this mindset that the only thing we can do is put our faith in these proxies like the Democrats, who did stage some opposition by leaving the state for six weeks. But you knew that that was going to end because they didn’t have the tools actually to really go anywhere with that. Who has all the initiative and all the power? It’s the Governor who can threaten them with arrest when they return. And eventually enough Democrats returned for there to be a quorum, and these new voting laws are going to pass with a few tweaks here and there. I was reading an article today where one of the Democrats was saying, from the floor, to the Republican colleagues, “you have backed off of agreements that you’ve made with certain people here.” Well, of course, they’re going to do that. They’re not good faith actors. All of the norms and the rules have been torn asunder. That’s something that Trump actually really did effectively. And people are replicating that on the state level. This whole Republican Party has been gouged out and hollowed out and is now a fascist party. If you cannot see what fascism is and how that operates, what their endgame is, then I think people are going to be constantly under this illusion that the Democrats are going to stop this, or that will mobilize enough voters. The Republican Party is putting in place the mechanisms to deny those votes. So we do need to step outside of the normal channels. We have the majority, we have the people, and we have right on our side. And if we don’t start using that, to actually galvanize a movement from below, this is not going to go anywhere good. This abortion law is going into effect on September 1. And when is the big sort of musical protests being staged? On September 1. Where people been for the last three or four months were a sustained protest movement. And I know there are challenges. But look, last year, people rose up, because they saw the necessity and they defied. They use their brains to socially distance as much as possible and where, you know, use their masks, and, you know, now we have a vaccine, there’s even less, less reason not to be in the streets. We know that when people see the necessity, that they will actually do what’s right, but I feel like in Texas, the constant message is just put your faith in the system, put your faith in the system. It’s leading us to a nightmare, where I think people are thinking about: Well, where am I going to go next? How do I leave the state? If they have that kind of privilege. It’s surreal, I guess, to live in Texas right now. That’s what it feels like.

Sam Goldman    38:59

I want to give a very hearty atheist amen to what you were talking about in terms of the sheer lack of response. This is a do or die moment. And in fact, people are dying in Texas because of this fascist pandemic. It also was a do or die moment just when looking at the abortion rights emergency. You know, when abortion is illegal, women and others who get abortions, they die, they die. And the sheer absence of any commensurate mobilization is mind boggling. Especially when you look at how eerily similar the 15 week ban on D&E, the most common abortion procedure. The Fifth Circuit ruling is a template for what is going to go down on the Supreme Court when they hear the Mississippi case, which will likely be the end of Roe v. Wade; the final nail in the coffin if you will. That we don’t see a flooding of the streets if that we don’t See faith leaders, lawyers pulling out all the stops, is horrifying. In the same way that you don’t see people in the streets in mass in Texas around voting rights. That there aren’t huge displays of civil disobedience regarding the anti voting rights legislation going down at the most extreme forms of voter suppression, in Texas. You can’t even talk about the word racism in the context of it. WTF? This is in a moment where, again, religious leaders and lawyers and all forms of folks from different platforms are planting themselves in the streets and saying we’re not going to tolerate this. The equivalent of Klan rule in this state…we’re not going to tolerate, we’re not going to allow it, it’s not going to go down in our names. But you know, I look at the “good trouble” rallies that are happening, and they’re puny. They’re puny as [expletive].    And the reason why they’re puny as [expletive] is because people are being the tail of the Democratic donkey and listening to what the folks in power are telling them not to do, or just not telling them.

Coco Das    41:06

These email message from all these advocacy organizations is “we’ve got a plan, we’ve got a plan”.    The plan is a we’re going to push through this legislation. No, you’re not. That legislation is not going to pass the Senate.    Or, we’re going to fight them in court. The courts are stacked with fascists, We’re in a new reality. And yet, this whole ecosystem of organizations that people are relying on that are pinned to the Democratic Party, they really do play a role in pacifying people, and getting them to wait for the next election. It’s just a constant, wait and see thing, and in the meantime, our rights are being stripped away from us. You know, one thing that’s really interesting that did happen recently in Texas, and I think there’s something to learn from it, is that there’s a new book called ‘Forget the Alamo’. The three authors have been really good about advocating for the book. It really goes through the myth of the Alamo and what role that has played in Texas and white supremacy here. It’s really threatening, this book has been very threatening to the Republicans here and the fascists who are really trying to control what people learn and what people talk about. Dan Patrick, again, bragged about having one of their events canceled at the Bullock Museum here. And I have to say that the authors really did a good job of seizing that moment and turning it into a political fight. The book became a best seller off of this. They just wouldn’t back down. They really called out the censorship and they rallied a bunch of allies, they really made it into a situation where people had to say: Okay, which side am I on? Am I on the side of truth? Or am I on the side of just letting these fascists roll over people? And I’d like to see just some more of that; where people kind of take the repression that these fascists are bringing down and turn it around. But that’s sort of in a cultural sphere. In the political sphere, people really do have to break out of the confines of what is considered “acceptable protest” or “acceptable means” of redressing injustices.    We’re in a moment, where actually the tactics people used to get voting rights from the civil rights movement, it’s time for that again. Also for people to really wage the society-wide struggle to drive these fascists out. You can’t just vote fascism out.    We voted a fascist out. Trump was a fascist, and we voted him out, even as there was not enough recognition of what Trumpism was and what he represented, but what is it? 74 million people voted for Trump.

Sam Goldman    43:50

More than the last time…

Coco Das    43:51

Yes, he got more voters, and from what I understand even a slight uptick from men of color. It’s going to take a struggle to drive that out. And it has to be driven out. We can’t live with it, we can’t make peace with it. I think what you see when listening to these speeches from Democratic officials, there is a part of them that wants to stop this, but they don’t actually know what they’re facing. I think, as part of it, they can’t see beyond the confines of what the stability of the system has been for so long. But those means and mechanisms are are gone; you can’t rely on the courts anymore. And even that is such a short-lived moment in American history, right? It was after the civil rights movement that people won some concessions. And, in a way things are going back to what was normal before the Civil Rights Movement, before the liberation movement of the 60s, when there was all this upheaval.

Sam Goldman    44:46

I think that this is really true Coco and I think that in some ways, they’re trying to go further back from that.    They don’t just want the 50s. They want something more extreme in terms of repression and oppression. And I think that the only thing that I guess I disagree with is that I don’t really care what the intentions of individuals are in power. I think that in a certain way, their intentions are meaningless, because it’s what they are doing in the world? I think that their their role is as representatives of a system that I personally — and this is not the opinion of all who who are part of Refuse Fascism, let alone all our listeners, so if you disagree, that’s welcome, but I think that they are representatives of a system — of capitalism and imperialism, and that comes first and maintaining that is what’s most essential in their role. I take a lot of leadership from what’s written by Bob Avakian, the revolutionary leader, in his piece This is a Rare Time When Revolution Becomes Possible, Why That is So and How to Seize on this Rare Opportunity. He talks about the advantages, if you will, that the Republicans who he calls a fascist party, have over the Democrats in this conflict. One of the things that he says is: “The Democrats are committed to playing by the rules, and relying on the norms of democratic capitalist dictatorships while the Republicans are moving to tear up those norms and rules through an open undisguised capitalist dictatorship, and the peculiar nature of this country with a history of genocide, slavery, and continuing white supremacy and repeated ‘compromises’ that have given disproportionate power to southern states of the former Confederacy and other states with significant rural populations of conservative-leaning people.” This is another advantage that the fascist Republicans have. I think this is the most essential part where he says: “If this battle remains on the terms of this system, not only will there be horrific consequences overall, but this could very likely lead to a triumph for the Republican fascists, which would accentuate and accelerate the looming disaster of humanity as a whole.” His piece ends with “Things don’t have to be this way and must not remain on the terms of the system.” That’s where I’m coming from in this and I think that we’re seeing that really acutely in Texas. My point of bringing that up was to see relying norms that the Republicans don’t give a shit about, we see that in Texas, and we see the damage that that’s doing and how that is, in many ways leading to the Republican fascists gaining more power and more initiative. I was wondering what how you think?

Coco Das    47:27

I think that quote is very helpful, and that it’s very hard for people. I do think that people should read Bob Avakian’s writings on this, because he’s studied this for a long time, but at least since the Clinton impeachment. Why does the Democratic Party not call out their base, when people realize that wearing masks would really mitigate the effects of this disease? Trump was encouraging people to go to the state houses and storm the state houses and protest these mask mandates. They have no trouble unleashing their base, yet, the Democratic Party will not call out their base in the same way, and when they do, it’s very controlled and it’s very within certain parameters. He writes that the Democratic Party is a ruling class party, which is a reality I think people need to grapple with, and that as a ruling class party, unleashing their base — which is mainly the people who have been oppressed, that makes up a big part of the people who have been historically oppressed in this country — that can easily get out of their control. I remember reading this article, and since then, it’s just been born out to be true. I was just observing how reluctant they are to call people out into the streets in nonviolent protest, and how afraid of that they still are. I think it’s a fair point about intention, I think, especially like some of these new Democrats, they certainly don’t see themselves as ruling class representatives. And that doesn’t mean they’re not, and I think they do have some illusions that they can change the system. I think about their motivations and intent and    not necessarily that it makes that much difference in the long run. But instead of constantly, we’re tearing our hair out, like why won’t they end the filibuster? There are reasons why the Democratic Party, why Biden will not end the filibuster. He said it, he tells you, it’ll tear this country apart, and they want to keep the system going. They want to keep the Empire going. There’s a lot to it. There’s a lot to understand there. And I think there’s too much just not confronting that.

Sam Goldman    49:37

I think that we should have that conversation. Definitely. We should definitely have that conversation. I think that is something that listeners would want to hear about, cuz I know it’s something that people are thinking a lot about. I really appreciate you taking time this morning to chat with me and I hope that listeners appreciated this conversation as much as I did. Every opportunity that I get to talk to Coco…you can talk to Coco too after you read here article at Refuse fascism.org. It’s linked in the show notes. You can tweet her @Coco_Das with your thoughts. And I’m sure she’d love to hear any questions that you might have. She might have those questions too. And she’s nodding her head.

Coco Das    50:23

Yeah, I’d love to hear from you.

Sam Goldman    50:24

Well definitely have Coco on again, soon. Thanks, Coco. Since we recorded this conversation, Caleb Wallace, the anti-mask freedom rally organizer has died at age 30. On this show, we’ve been sounding the alarm about the abortion rights emergency. We encourage folks to go back and listen to some previous episodes delving more into this topic to share them, discuss them and send us your thoughts. There’s Episode 69. With Derenda Hancock, abortion rights activists and defender of the one abortion clinic in the entire state of Mississippi. There’s Episode 66 with Jessica Mason Piccolo, Senior Vice President and Executive Editor at Rewire News and longtime abortion provider Dr. Warren Hern, and Episode 62, featuring Caroline Duple, the political director of Avow Texas.    Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. What we’re aiming to do with the show is to foster a deeper understanding of why and how we’ve gotten into that deep predicament that we have with a real threat of fascism in this country. Exactly so that we can act collectively to respond, resist and refuse fascism together. I want to share a bit of analysis that my friend Debra Sweet, shared via the World Can’t Wait newsletter recently. It’s from a speech by Bob Avakian given back in 2006.  The entire piece Bringing Forward Another Way can be read at revcom.us. But that really captures the dynamic around the Global War on Terror on a global scale, and is especially acute looking at the spectrum of response to the end of the war.    What do you think? I want to hear from you Share your comments, ideas, questions, or lend to scale. Tweet me at @SamBGoldman, or you can drop me a line at [email protected] or leave a voicemail by calling (917)426-7582.    You can also record a voice message by going to Anchor.fm/RefuseFascism and clicking the button there. You might even hear yourself on a future episode. Thanks again for listening. If you want to help the show, it’s simple. You can rate and review us on Apple podcasts or your listening platform of choice. And of course, subscribe, follow us so you never miss an episode. You can chip in to support the show by clicking the donate button at RefuseFascism.org or Venmo: Refuse-Fascism, Cash App RefuseFascism. Thanks as always to Lina Thorne, Richie Marini and Mark Tinkleman for helping produce the show. Thanks to incredible volunteers. We have transcripts available for each episode, so be sure to visit RefuseFascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox each week. We’ll be back next Sunday. Until then, in the name of humanity, we refuse to accept a fascist America.