Fascist “Operation Lone Star” + Trump Indictment

Fascist “Operation Lone Star” + Trump Indictment

Refuse Fascism Episode 166 with Faisal Al-Juburi

Sun, Aug 06, 2023 2:17PM • 43:17

Faisal Al-Juburi 00:00

What we see right now with Operation Lone Star and Governor Abbott is the multi-agency, state agency, border militarization project. It really is meant to foment xenophobic sentiment. It is meant and designed to racially profile. Federal policy is leading to imprisonment of asylum seekers en masse.

Sam Goldman 00:46

Welcome to Episode 166 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States.

In today’s episode, we’re sharing an interview with Faisal Al-Juburi, Interim Vice President of Communications for RAICES.

Thanks to everyone who shares the show with their friends, loved ones, strangers, comments on YouTube, all that stuff — it’s so important. And shout out to all those who write me with their thoughts and ideas. It’s really helpful. Here is a new review up on Apple podcasts as proof we read every one. It was posted Tuesday by R. Mattis — is how I’m gonna read it, sorry if that’s not correct. They titled their review “Courageous,”, gave it five stars (thank you) and wrote “Excellent, courageous podcast with informative guests. Unlike too many on the left, Sam is not afraid to use the word ‘fascism’ to describe the right.” Well, thank you R. Mattis again, for posting that lovely review. After listening to today’s episode. Please go be like R. Mattis, write a review, give us all the stars on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. It really does help us reach more listeners.

Before we get into the interview. We’ve got to get into Trump’s indictment — the big one. A lot of what I’m going to lay out, not all of it but a lot of it, is from a new statement from the Refuse Fascism editorial board that is up over at RefuseFascism.org. So go check it out — it’s in the shownotes — after listening to today’s episode, of course.

On August 1, the Department of Justice indicted Trump on four counts of and relating to conspiracy to overturn the results of the 2020 election. The indictment centers on Trump’s actions leading up to and on January 6, 2021, when a Congressional meeting to confirm Biden’s electoral victory was derailed by a violent pro-Trump mob that rampaged through the U.S. Capitol on January 6, Trump unleashed thousands of his blood thirsty, murderous fascist supporters to violently storm the Capitol, attempting to hunt down and hang Mike Pence, all with one goal: to hold on to power through deadly force.

The indictment clearly states that Trump lost the election, knew he lost the election and spread lies in order to remain in power. We’ll be talking more in depth about the indictments and the case and coming weeks, but I highly recommend, if you haven’t already, reading the indictments, or listening to them. The Brian Lehrer show did a live reading of them so you can give it a listen if you prefer.

If you weren’t familiar with Refuse Fascism in 2020, 2021, I gotta recommend checking out previous episodes, starting in the summer of 2020, where we started to sound the alarm about Trump undermining the U.S. election process. And where we are mobilizing folks for mass, sustained, nonviolent protests demanding “Trump/Pence Out Now!” We ran episodes on preparing to resist Trump’s fascist coup and how taking to the streets challenges a dictator’s legitimacy.

Refuse Fascism even published a full page ad in the New York Times on November 9th: “A Pledge to the People of the World, In the Name of Humanity, We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America,” signed by a range of prominent voices, demanding “Trump/Pence Out Now!” making vividly clear the danger and stating the commitment that “We Won’t Stop Until They’re Gone.” This was paired with calls for daily protests nationwide. We ran an episode where I covered in detail, a month before the storming of the Capitol, how the fight for Trump equals fight for fascism and much more.

Refuse Fascism organized nationwide protests demanding “No to a Fascist Coup.” And we brought you voices on this show from protests in the streets around the country and in D.C. in particular, organized by Refuse Fascism, calling on listeners to join the struggle to oust Trump/Pence. In addition, the Refuse Fascism editorial board organized a series of virtual roundtable discussions featuring high profile scholars and voices of conscience. I can’t help but imagine the difference that would have made had people answered our call and took to the streets in massive, unrelenting non violent protests, demanding his ouster as soon as the rolling coup was clear, before they stormed the Capitol, and had folks not listened to the Democratic Party that undermined such efforts.

This is Trump’s third indictment, with a fourth one looming, but this is the only one that comes close to potentially holding him accountable as a fascist leader who unleashed a violent mob on January 6th, to culminate a rolling coup. At the same time he remains the Republican front runner, by miles, has not been banned or prevented from continuing his campaign, and is backed up and defended by a thoroughly fascist GOP and escalating threats of violence.

In classic Trump fashion, less than 24 hours after being arraigned for charges related to attempting to subvert the 2020 presidential election, Trump called for the U.S. Supreme Court to step in to the 2024 contest, whining that dealing with numerous ongoing legal battles, amounts to “Election Interference” — you know, that thing he’s accused of conspiring to do in his latest federal indictment. He posted on Truth Social: “I am leading in all polls, including against crooked Joe, but this is not a level playing field,” and going on to say, “It is election interference and the Supreme Court must intercede.” Later that day, Trump, Truth Social, all caps, “IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I’M COMING AFTER YOU!”

Many were quick and right to say, that in less than 24 hours, he had already broken the judge’s rules, and that he needs to be jailed. The post was flagged by the Office of Special Counsel, Jack Smith, who said that Trump’s posts raised concerns that he might publicly reveal secret material such as Grand Jury transcripts obtained from prosecutors. Smith is seeking a protective order prohibiting Trump and his lawyers from sharing any discovery material with unauthorized folks.

“Coming After You” — this is a fascist menace, exerting his power, daring the judge and prosecutors to try and stop him, while signaling to his rabid base. This isn’t new for Trump, the stakes just keep getting higher. The only thing that would be remotely new is if he were held to account. This is his brand –that of fascism — threatening your political enemies with retribution, with violence. This is who he has shown himself to be, and the GOP to be, over and over and over.

Even as recently as his last criminal indictment. It’s so bizarre saying that phrase! It is also clear within the indictment itself. Not only is this not shocking, but it is shocking that people truly believe, against all evidence, that this is all just going to resolve itself; a painless lesson of the system working and justice prevailing. Trump went on to have a rally in South Carolina on Saturday, where he called Jack Smith, a, “Deranged human being,” after earlier that day, attacking Mike Pence, a key witness in this case.

We’ll have to cover Mike Pence in a future episode, maybe. People rushed to tweet, “He is going to get someone killed.” Yes, yes, that’s his point! And also, what has already happened, and what he has attempted. “Hang Mike Pence!” they chanted as they stormed the Capitol, where they erected gallows. And it’s what he seeks to call forth, much more. Did you miss the part? Did they miss the part? The people that are saying “He’s gonna get someone killed,” miss the part in the indictment about using the Insurrection Act to legally put down protests of his coup attempt?

All of this is totally unprecedented in the history of US elections. And these divisions, not only in government, but in every institution and corner of society, have not been this deep since just before the Civil War. It feels almost as if anything could happen. However, no positive outcome of these criminal cases is guaranteed, and celebrating a victory that is far from inevitable is a recipe for disaster. It’s worth remembering that every crisis Trump and his fascist party gets through strengthens their movement, leaving a core of battle tested and even more dangerous, genocidal, revanchist lunatics to set the terms for all of society.

At the same time, if the millions of people who do not want a fascist U.S.A. were to join together in massive nonviolent struggle and resistance, Trump could be stopped, and this fascist movement could be weakened. Yet over and over, for the last seven years at every opportunity to rise up and defeat this fascism, the decent people have been encouraged to retreat and remain passive.

On the other side, to the millions of his followers who worship Trump for tearing up the norms and throwing out the rulebook, for grabbing women by the pussy and calling Mexicans rapists, for withstanding two impeachments and shaping a Supreme Court that is putting women, black people, gay people and liberals, “Back in their place,” for this space that has been immunized from facts and evidence, this indictment is only more proof that the “Deep State” is out to get their last hope and savior and they are preparing for battle. Neither Trump, the fascists, who have cohered around him or the ones waiting in the wings to take his place, are throwing in the towel and preparing for defeat.

They are fighting for a permanent win, one that eliminates, for good, all of their political enemies and all of the people who think they have destroyed their country. Take seriously Kari Lake’s recent threat that we covered on a previous episode: “If you want to get to President Trump, you’re going to have to go through me and you’re going to have to go through 75 million Americans just like me, and I’m going to tell you, most of us are card carrying members of the NRA.”

Take seriously the dystopian Agenda 47, created by a vast network of fascist strategists from the Heritage Foundation, the Claremont Institute, the America First Policy Institute, and the Conservative Political Action Coalition, “Working up comprehensive schemes for neo-fascist consolidation”, that’s how Paul Street talks about it. We are talking about the late dictatorship in which the unchallenged domination of these fascists will be enforced at every level and by every means at their disposal.

We are talking about a slow Civil War quickly escalating into a one-sided slaughter. This calls to mind a profound quote from Dorothy Thompson, one of the first American journalists to be expelled from Nazi Germany. Speaking about Hitler, she wrote, “One dismissed him still clinging to the concept of normal, not wondering what might happen if such a man, surrounded by others with a capacity for organization, should come to the surface in a society which shared his own symptoms, a society which was also frustrated and sick.”
The fascism of Trump and his party, with its accelerating capacity for organization toward fascist consolidation, has still barely been named in the media, much less thoroughly repudiated by a mass movement of millions standing up against it. This is a time for truth, not delusion — for struggle, not complacency. Lock Trump up, throw away the key! Fascism is a threat to all of humanity!

Stay tuned for more on the pod where we will be covering, analyzing, and responding to this developing situation. And yeah, share the show with your friends and loved ones, and, yeah, that guy you met once in the checkout line. And just as essential, we want to hear your thoughts and questions, so leave us a message; comment on our socials or YouTube, DM us if you’re more of the private type, email me at [email protected] To leave us a message, there’s a link in the show notes.

Now let’s get into the war on immigrants at the Texas border. As part of Operation Lone Star, Texas Governor Greg Abbott ordered the installation of miles of razor wire along the Texas side of the Rio Grande this past June, then installed a quarter mile of barrel shaped buoys tethered to the bottom of the Rio Grande. These are uncrossable, and this was done in the middle of the river in July, last month. In between each buoy are sharp metal strips so that anyone who might try to climb between the narrow gap is cut; their skin sliced.

What Texas is doing is testing the boundaries of how far their terror can go. And they keep getting away with it. It’s like they said: What about razor wire, lining the border? Can we do it? Yes, we can. Okay. Well, let’s try trespassing charges. Uh, good to go. Okay. Well, what about busing asylum seekers to sanctuary cities, and you know, just dumping them there? We weren’t stopped. Now what? Okay. Let’s up the ante and put a buoy barrier killing machine in the middle of the Rio Grande. Openly and repeatedly defying the federal government, and even more defying any human decency.

Now, the Department of Justice has sued the state over unlawfully installing the floating barrier, without permission, between the border cities of Eagle Pass, and Piedras Negres, Mexico. To which, Abbott gave a big middle finger, “Texas has sovereign authority to defend our border.” I had spoken with Faizal this past Tuesday. A day later, on Wednesday afternoon, a 20 year old Honduran migrant was found dead near the buoy barrier Abbot installed in the Rio Grande. Approximately three miles downstream, another person’s body was spotted, caught in the death trap. It was also after conducting this interview that the Houston Chronicle reported that the Texas Department of Public Safety Officers have separated at least two dozen migrant families that crossed into Eagle Pass this summer. See shownotes for their coverage. Now here is my interview with Faisal.

ur immigrant siblings are dying, drowning in the Rio Grande — the river that forms the boundary between Texas and Mexico — trying to cross the river that has been transformed by “Die if You Dare to Emigrate”, Governor Greg Abbott into a death passage filled with floating barricades lined with razor wire. Immigrants, refugees asylum seekers, found floating, unconscious but alive, pulled from the river and taken into Border Patrol custody. Children, babies pushed into the river prevented from entry into the US. Dehydrated immigrants forced to stand in 100+ temperatures without access to water.

The fascist Republic of Texas under Abbott is fomenting and relying on a xenophobic base that is all too gleeful to see such a show of cruelty for cruelty’s sake, and Abbott’s overt defiance of federal law and the limits of its state’s power in immigration is a flashpoint in the brewing of a civil war. So, to get into this more, I want to welcome on Faisal Al-Juburi, Interim Vice President of Communications for RAICES, whose mission is to defend the rights of immigrants and refugees, to empower individuals, families and communities and advocating for liberty and justice. Welcome, Faisal.

Faisal Al-Juburi 16:30

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Sam Goldman 17:28

So for a long time, your organization has been raising the alarm about Abbott’s increasingly cruel border policies; the dangerous precedent they’re setting for really the entire country. Personally, I think it should be clear to anyone who clearly looks at this, that the official policy in Texas is sadistic fascism. I was hoping that you could tell listeners a little bit more about what Operation Lone Star is, what it involves, how you see it changing, and the impact it’s having on immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers.

Faisal Al-Juburi 18:27

You know, I think it’s something that has been born out of the increasing and escalating vilification of immigrants, of asylum seekers, in the U.S., something that we have seen really take root not just over the last several years, but over decades. What we see right now with Operation Lone Star and Governor Abbott is a multi agency, state agency, border militarization project, and it really is meant to foment xenophobic sentiment within our communities.

It is meant and designed to racially profile, and it is designed as a deterrent practice to immigration. On the state level, on the federal level, what we really need to understand as a nation is that deterrent practices do not work. So why aren’t we talking about a humanitarian approach to asylum? And why aren’t we talking about how do we preserve a human and legal right to seek asylum here in the U.S.? Why is that conversation no longer happening anymore? I think that goes across the political spectrum.

I usually say that it’s quite easy to be nonpartisan when you’re working in the immigrant rights landscape because what we’ve seen increasingly since post 9/11, and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, and all of the sub agencies that feed into it, is how do we create this us/them binary? How do we influence almost a nativist sort of alignment within the American people? And how do we also really lean into this notion of a good and the bad immigrants? What does that really mean? But it’s almost like it’s given people license, regardless of how progressive or not you think you are, given people license to sort of turn a blind eye to the human rights abuses that are happening at our border and you know, and in Texas.

Sam Goldman 20:55

For listeners who have not been following this as closely, in simple terms, what is operation Lone Star? What’s going on? I gave some examples of what’s happening, but I’m sure you can give a better picture as a group that’s directly supports immigrants, of what that situation looks like.

Faisal Al-Juburi 21:16

It is, sort of under the directive of Governor Abbott. It is different government agencies working together to essentially to endanger Texans is how I can just distill it to its core root. You’re locking up thousands of asylum seekers, pretrial, in Texas Department of Criminal Justice prisons, deploying Texas National Guard for a permanent mission at the border, instead of actually being out there ready for disaster relief work in our communities, as we need it. It’s harassing border communities with traffic stops and fines that are racial profiling rooted.

And all under sort of the concept of: We’re going to get them — We’re going to root out those who have entered into our nation illegally. That’s actually also just such a fascinating concept, the whole “illegal entry,” “illegal immigration,” because a lot of what is being deemed that, termed that, even in media headlines that one would think were sympathetic to the immigrant rights movement, is feeding this narrative that people aren’t even following the steps that they should be taking, when a lot of times what is deemed illegal immigration and our news media headlines are actually people presenting themselves orderly as they should under U.S. law to seek asylum and to go through a process that also includes an asylum interview.

Then their case can be heard on its own merits and determined whether or not they have the opportunity to receive relief under our nation’s asylum system or not. Operation Lone Star, it is a mixture of different sort of tactics that are being used to keep out, sort of, this mythic enemy, to scape goat, the immigrant community, the asylum seeking community for a fentanyl crisis that is statistically not tied to it.

I think it’s a perfect storm right now with federal policy, because federal policies that are being implemented, policies and practices, are limiting people’s access to that asylum system that I was talking about earlier. It’s kind of a perfect storm right now; federal policy is leading to imprisonment of asylum seekers en masse in government custody, rushing them through an expedited removal process that then limits their ability to access legal counsel before they have their asylum interview. Because they’re trying to get their asylum interviews within 24 hours of entering into U.S. government custody.

Just practically speaking, how are you going to access legal counsel in that time, and have the expert sort of guidance and advice to lead you through that process? To then lead to immediate sort of deportation, so that then you’re limited if you try and enter into the country, again. Obviously, there are variations and all of these different specific circumstances, but, again, if you were now deported, then if you try and enter into the country within the next five years, there’s criminal liability there. For people who are in pursuit of safety and security for themselves for their families, five minutes is too much, let alone five years.

Sam Goldman 24:44

I really appreciate that break down. When you see the news stories and you think about this barrier that’s been put up in the Rio Grande — and we don’t have the precise distance, it’s like — 300 feet from the land. Just imagine having traveled all that way, feeling hopeful, feeling like: Okay, you’re going to be safe, your kids gonna be safe, and your skin being shredded from razor wire. I think that people do need to wake up to a little bit of the visceral reality that our siblings are facing.

Faisal Al-Juburi 25:17

People need to wake up. That is the case, because we hear so often –especially parents, right — I would do anything, I would do anything for my child, right. And so yeah, take that, channel that energy, practice some empathy, and also understand that if you’ve made it that far, it’s not about that final barrier. So really, all we’re doing by putting up that barrier, is being vindictive. [SG: exactly]

What we’re doing by putting up that barrier is showing that we have complete disregard for human life. That’s the issue. And it’s hard because — not to take us off sort of track, but — RAICES really came into public conscience — we’ve been around since 1986 and we were born out of the sanctuary movements. We’ve been providing direct services for nearly 40 years now — it was the 2018 family separation crisis that put RAICES to more of a national advocacy stage.

What was fascinating there, though, is to its support for immigration, for many, just studying behaviors now isn’t much of an anti Trump act for those that were trying to make a statement against something that an elected official sort of represented. It was as much of an anti-elected official act as it was a pro sort of Human Rights Act, showing your support for immigration. There is this disconnect when try and explain to the public that yes, as you’re trying to raise awareness of right now through this sort of fascinating lens that you’ve brought to this is that: Yes, how state elected officials play such an outsized role in the lived experiences of our service recipients and our service providers right now. Just because there’s a new elected official in the White House, or a different party in the White House, does not mean that our problems are over.

Sam Goldman 27:25

I was reading letters to the editor that were sent to The L.A. Times because the last busload of migrants was sent to L.A. People were writing in, overwhelmingly opposing the cruelty of Abbot. There was one letter I’m going to quote from, because it got a thing that anyone being like: Oh, well, the Biden administration is suing, whooo! I thought this got it really, really great. This is Douglas Dunn, who wrote in to the LA Times: “The Department of Justice filed a lawsuit over the illegal buoys and razor wire fencing in Texas on the Rio Grande. A lawsuit? Really? A lawsuit? This should not be handled by litigation from DOJ, but by Customs and Border Protection, Homeland Security, or the military.”

Skipping ahead: “Biden should just send in border patrol or the military and remove the illegal barriers. Just do it. They have the authority.” That’s the end of the section I want to read. There’s historical examples of when there’s been this contention with the state and the federal government. The best example of this, to me, would be during the integration of the schools, when states were like: We’re not doing it. The National Guard was sent down, and they integrated the schools to have the backs of people.

I’m not like all about the National Guard, don’t get me wrong, like they’re gonna solve the problems. But it did show a much different dynamic, and if anybody thinks that Biden would do that needs to look at previous policy to see that. But there is something, I think, of a little bit of where people just look at these lawsuits — and it’s not the first time such a lawsuit has happened with Texas — sometimes, we just want it to work out and we think the Judiciary will like just take care of it.

Faisal Al-Juburi 29:12

We want to believe that the system will work and the system will work as it was intended to in our minds and something that’s very utopian in a way, right. Because I think at the end of the day, look, there is so much at stake right now; so much that I think many of us have taken for granted as a people. The better part of the last decade has sort of jolted us into that sort of awakening and awareness.

Number one, it can be assault to the senses. Number two, believing that systems will work for what is right, and what is just, and it will get us there if we just give the time, it’s like believing — for anyone — in a higher power, right? I can’t control everything. Try as I might, there is a power outside of myself. And I want to believe the same about our government — because that’s also a coping mechanism. Because it’s sometimes too hard to really reckon with what we are facing on multiple fronts right now.

What we are saying is that some of us were just sold a false bill of goods, right. The story of what the U.S. is may be not always aligned with the actual reality. For anyone who’s had any type of life of relative privilege, we have been sort of smacked in the face with it constantly, over the last several years. What any of us are saying in this movement for systemic change is to say: Nah, we want to take that story and we want to get the narrative of like, this is what the U.S. stood for. We may have never actually been there, and we’ll show you a whole bunch of history to say let’s not whitewash the past; let’s show you how a lot of what’s happening today is just like sort of a cyclical pattern of things that have happened in the past. How do we get closer to that ideal? but also remind people that we can’t just turn it over and say: Well, we hope the systems will just work as they were hopefully intended to do, to just get us closer to justice, you know, that they will get us to what is right; that we the people have to demand it.

We the people have to implore our elected officials to fulfill that vision; that we are the accountability mission, and that we can just say, hopefully, the system will work. Well, no, the system will not work if you are not an active member of it, if you are not an active part of it, and you are just hoping that someone else is going to do the work for you. That is just the message that hopefully people can hear when we’re also talking about immigration right now, because this fight for justice is an intersectional one. At the end of the day, everything is about: Are we going to move forward as a nation acknowledging and embracing and creating a human centered approach to law, policy, practice? or are we not? Are we going to follow the Abbott model?

Sam Goldman 32:24

Yeah, I think that the Abbott model is a specter of what’s to come if we don’t change things. I do think that this system is working completely as intended. And when I say system, I’m talking about the underlying economic system that creates the situations that our siblings have. We create the situation, and then: Why do people come here from all over the world? This country, the U.S. has fucked over the rest of the world even worse.

That that is my personal opinion, not the opinion of everyone that makes this show happen, or those who listen to the show. And that’s good and right, and there should be contention over ideas, while a lot of unity on the fact that we have to fight for our siblings whose lives are right now imperiled. The situation as it stands isn’t a good one, and it’s not going to get good by hoping; just give it time, and it will work out, as you were saying — or, this is just an anomaly, or it can’t be that bad, right? people have to be hyping it up — or whatever people tell themselves to justify looking away.

There is something that you brought up earlier that I did want to give you an opportunity just to speak to, because I think that it is one that is a little tricky for people, especially the decent folk who care about people. I just want to clarify for folks that the Biden administration has done real harm for those seeking asylum and refuge within the United States. Biden postures is advocating for immigrant rights — for instance, doing the suit that he’s doing, opposing the most outrageous policy — but I think it would be fair to say in some ways, he’s out trumping Trump on closing the border, gutting the asylum process and carrying out mass deportations and expulsions.

What we see in terms of resistance or lack thereof, that you were speaking to earlier, I think is one that we do have to recognize. I was hoping that you could help our listeners who are afraid that they can’t take on on one without defending the other, how do you take a stand for the rights and lives and humanity of immigrant siblings without defending one or the other?

Faisal Al-Juburi 34:44

Whenever we try to hold President Biden accountable — because we’ve done this under previous administrations, right — for me, it is not right to sit there and turn a blind eye — then you’d have no reason to trust us the end of the day and I think that that’s the most important bond that we can also just have as a service provider and as an advocate and as a voice within the community and as an educating voice for the American public. When we hold the current President and his administration accountable, probably then I will get hate mail, it’s correlated.

You see people try to make these justifications: Family separation was wrong, bad, but totally cool for family detention, putting them in prison together. You see these justifications at play of like, that’s the lesser of evils, that’s the Okay, that’s the whatever. And I think for us, it’s like: What is the standard that you want to set or how people should be treated? What is the standard that you want to set for, if we have set a precedent as a nation, if we have established our rights, do we just not want to honor and acknowledge that that right exists? Because it’s not necessarily sort of politically expedient in that moment? Because if you do that, then it’s a slippery slope for all of us and all of our rights.

If everything becomes optional, you’ll see yourself making all these justifications for this infringement upon established legal rights, this infringement, that: Well, it’s okay, because I’m not affected. It’s okay because like my family is not affected. It’s okay because of what other justification you create. But then that creeps. What you’re telling me at the end of the day, even if you are a law and order person, well then you actually have no regard for law and order. That’s what I want people to wake up to.

The current administration has done some good, but I’m going to give an example of something that’s very just sort of easy black and white. Everyone was talking about how horrific family separation was. This administration, prior to entering into the office, also spoke so passionately about how this isn’t who we are as a nation. This administration was negotiating with families who had suffered through the family separation process for a settlement deal, because, to be clear, there are so many ramifications to family separation.

Some still have not been reunited, as we’ve seen in headlines, some are a matter of days, some were a matter of months, several months separated. Because, bottom line, the point was for them to never be reunited again. The separations did not happen in a way that was: Oh, we’ll bring them back together in a week. It was not set up, it was not designed to expediently bring parent and child back together. The mental, behavioral, emotional impact on parent and child, that will last a lifetime.

This is what we did as a nation. This is what we sanctioned — federal government sanctioned — regardless of you come in, and as representatives of the federal government, you need to take responsibility, accountability for that. They were doing the right thing, seemed to have the instinct, the impulse, to do the right thing, and they walked away from negotiations. Can’t speak to motivation, but we also know that there were just bad headlines around: How could you be thinking of giving the immigrant families money?

That’s just a very clear distillation of how this administration, in some ways has not righted some of the wrongs of the past, then how also has just sort of furthered the dismantling of asylum as even just an American value. They’re getting the job done in terms of, like, ending asylum as we’ve known it for generations now in this nation — how to access it the right to seek it doesn’t really exist anymore. This administration is taking it to the finish line in a lot of ways. And part of that is because the American public has allowed it, for no other reason than, like, if nothing else, then it’s complacency.

I always say that complacency is the biggest threat. I also say that one of the key things that we often repeat at RAICES is that the law is downstream from culture; what will not only be enshrined in policy, but also implemented in sort of embraced by our elected officials, is what we as a public demand to center — it’s what we as a public say: Now, these are our values, this is what needs to happen, this is what we stand for. It’s when the public does that, when elected officials then listen.

Sam Goldman 39:30

I want to thank you so much for taking the time to share your experience, your expertise, your perspective with us and the work that you’re doing. If people want to support it to get involved, where do they go? What do they do?

Faisal Al-Juburi 39:47

We are online so I’d say RAICEStexas.org is how you can get involved if you want to donate if you want to volunteer if you want to just learn more. What we do is we provide legal and social services to immigrants, asylum seekers, refugees. We’re trying to sort of provide wraparound services so that they can thrive — so that our community members can thrive at the end of the day.

What I have to really just reinforce is if you do one thing, if your audience does one thing, if listeners do one thing, it’s that have this be the beginning of a continued education experience. Learn daunting things at face value and don’t shy away from pushing back within your networks. That includes, like the family dinner table. Push back against misinformation, against stigmatized thinking. This conversation, hopefully, served as a little bit of an awakening as to maybe how we’ve misconstrued things within the sort of media lens of how immigration is framed.

Now that you know more, continue to learn more, and then continue to push back against misinformation within your communities. Because, again, that’s how we’re going to create sustainable long term change, it’s how we’re gonna change minds. It’s not about the donation. We’ll take the donation, it goes directly to legal and social services for our community members who need it most.

Sam Goldman 41:13

Thanks again.

Faisal Al-Juburi 41:14

Thank you so much.

Sam Goldman 41:16

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Thanks to Richie Marini, Lina Thorne, and Mark Tinkleman for helping produce this episode. Thanks to incredible volunteers, we have transcripts available for each show, so be sure to visit RefuseFascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox. We’ll be back next Sunday. Until then, in the name of humanity, we refuse to accept a fascist America!