Teach Truth Not Lies with Dr. Marvin Dunn

Teach Truth Not Lies with Dr. Marvin Dunn

Refuse Fascism Episode169

Sun, Sep 03, 2023 11:03AM • 36:25

Dr. Marvin Dunn 00:00

Florida is trying to bury all stories dealing with institutional racism. Teachers are now required to teach that there was Black on white violence in Florida in Ocoee and Rosewood, and those are absolute lies. What we’re seeing is a trend that will, I think, drift to other states if DeSantis is successful, and we’re going to see public education destroyed. What we’re trying to do in Florida is to offer some resistance to this obviously right wing shift in public education. I’m hoping that the rest of this country recognizes what we’re doing in Florida to resist this and they will see resistance to it be law in other places as well.

Sam Goldman 00:55

Welcome to Episode 169 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers, and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes, and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States. In today’s episode, we’re sharing an interview with Dr. Marvin Dunn, discussing teaching black history in defiance of Governor Ron DeSantis’ white supremacist curriculum changes and standing up against the new department of education standards on slavery.

Before we get into it, if you value this pod that brings you experts, scholars, stories of resistance and analysis on the roots, nature and trajectory of the very real and present danger of fascism, that you’re just not going to get anywhere else, please give us five stars wherever you get your pods, review the show on Apple podcasts or your listening platform of choice, share with everyone in all the creative or not so creative ways you can think of and of course, follow/subscribe so you never miss an episode.

We got some sweet comments on the YouTubes this past week that I’ve got to share with you dear listeners, regarding last week’s episode, our interview with Mike Rothschild. Bill commented, “Sam and friends, you did it again. I now have two more books to add to the Mount Everest of books to read. This is the one podcast I listened to first — bad for my blood pressure, but oh how it feeds my brain.” Thanks, Bill. I think that we’re gonna give you a couple weeks off from new books to add, so we’re trying.

After listening to The Court is Wrong, Color Blindness Serving White Supremacy, which was uploaded August 13, SnowshadowHF commented, “Every Refuse Fascism podcast I’ve ever heard has taught me something new, giving me insights into the arguments and objectives of key players in decision making. Madiba Dennis breaks down the conservative rhetoric used in the latest college admissions ruling as well as its potential reach and effects on people of color. Getting to hear a quote from Justice Sotomayor is a great bonus.” Thanks for sharing your thoughts SnowshadowHF. If you listen on the YouTubes, be cool like Bill and SnowshadowHF, and comment like they did. Thanks to everyone who already does that weekly. Give the pod a thumbs up and share, share, share. Be sure to hit the bell so that you subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Okay, y’all, it’s back to school season. It’s a back to school episode. Students and teachers, when they return to school, are walking out into a battlefield — ready or not. There is a Christian fascist assault on public education. As documented by Pen America, there “is a nationwide effort to foment anger and anxiety about public education to restrict or prohibit instruction about race, sexuality and gender and to ban books that address these topics. Taken as a whole, it is a multifaceted campaign to chill the freedom to read, learn and think in public education through legislation and intimidation.”

In their latest report on Educational Intimidation: How “Parent’s Rights” Legislation Undermines the Freedom to Learn, published August 23, they detail the legislation sweeping statehouses. Key findings of the report include: how such laws foster a chilling atmosphere in public schools; result in blanket bans on books and or curriculum for all students and “ultimately empower an ideological assault on public education.” In addition, the report details the rise of educational intimidation bills aiming to restrict LGBTQ+ representation and expression in public schools in particular. Doing so by discouraging discussions of gender and sexuality, banning preferred pronoun use, and instilling mandatory reporting mechanisms for parents to be alerted of perceived changes to students’ gender identity or sexual orientation.

When the doors open this school year, if they haven’t already in these areas, LGBTQ+ students will be in the crosshairs of these Christian fascists. Students and teachers in North Carolina, Arkansas, Iowa and Indiana are all starting this school year with “don’t say gay” laws in effect. In Florida, where this law has already been enacted, there have been rising book bans of beloved children’s books with LGBTQ+ representation, such as “And Tango Makes Three,” (one of my favorites). With the exception of Arkansas, the new laws also require teachers or administrators to out trans students to their parents, forcing teachers to police students’ gender presentation, pronoun use, even nicknames. According to Pen America, this is law or executive policy in Alabama, Virginia, Oklahoma, Idaho, Kentucky and Utah. Anti LGBTQ educational gag orders have been introduced in 23 states. A link to the report and an update on the “don’t say gay” bills is in the show notes. [I] Highly recommend giving it a read.

My interview with Dr. Dunn was the day prior to the white supremacist murder in Jacksonville, Florida. On Saturday, August 26, a young white man entered a Dollar General in a predominantly black neighborhood in Jacksonville, with one goal: to kill as many black people as he could. With the power of the whole white supremacist movement behind him, he stole the lives of Angela Michelle Carr, Gerald Galleon, and A.J Leguerre, Jr. Angela 52, was described as a great mom. She was dropping off an Uber passenger at the Dollar General when the shooter fired into her car. Gerald, 29 years old, was a loving father to his four year old daughter, and A.J., age 19, was an employee at the Dollar General Store and an aspiring streamer — all shot to death by a white supremacist.

Angela, Gerald and A.J.’s tragic murders have joined the harrowing legacy of lynch mob terror that stains this country, with Florida home to more lynchings than anywhere in the south. The day after the shooting, Sunday, August 27, was the 63rd anniversary of Jacksonville’s “Axe Handle Saturday,” when over 200 white rioters armed with baseball bats and axe handles, chased, beat and threatened black residents as cops stood aside. This is the history that GOP presidential candidate and Florida Governor Ron DeFascist wants purged from the curriculum and classrooms.

Here’s a brief message Dr. Dunn posted on the website formerly known as Twitter in the aftermath of these murders. “The history of this country is drenched in the blood of white supremacist violence, from the genocide of native peoples, to the first Africans brought in chains to these shores. It is just as much a part of the present, with an epidemic of police brutality and murder alongside systemic discrimination across every conceivable social and economic metric.”

The MAGA movement is determined to violently reimpose the most vengeful, overt white supremacy. DeSantis and the shooter are part of the same fascist movement, the direct political descendants of the Confederacy. Fascism, blatant dictatorship, rule through open terror and violence, the evisceration of civil and legal rights. The fascist movement operates through the state and through the mob, towards the goal of genocide against all they deem subhuman. Fascists in power right now are stripping away black folks’ right to vote, wiping out affirmative action in education, and banning the teaching of black history.

Meanwhile, fascists out of power, commit murder, assault and intimidation on a mass scale. And let’s be clear, this is not random or disconnected, but a coherent fascist program to seize and consolidate power, and a foreshadowing of the unrestrained cruelty they plan on inflicting if they gain that power.” Sam talk here, not representing the views of all in Refuse Fascism: Meanwhile, the Democratic Party’s hollow, honeyed words betray the fact that their program is not cohered around ending white supremacy or liberating anyone from oppression, but instead bound together by their one true goal of maintaining the status quo of the American empire.

Now what about us? There’s no winning without risk or sacrifice, no advance without putting skin in the game, because look at: skin is in the game and lives are on the line. Nothing, no progress or justice, no rights or liberation has ever been won by people staying in their comfort zone. And look, white supremacist violence is fucking uncomfortable. The truth of this country is fucking uncomfortable and the covering up and erasure of that truth makes it all immeasurably worse. All of us are needed to rise up and resist the fascists in and out of power. I want to add that the more disruption and defiance that DeSantis and his ilk face, the more righteous rising up that happens now, the better position we are all in. Those of us who have less to lose need to be doing more, and all of us need to defend all who come under attack. As the fascists never fail to mention, the kids are watching. What will we show them? It’s on us, all of us, to refuse fascism. With that, here’s my conversation with Dr. Marvin Dunn.

It’s back to school season. For many teachers, that involves braving lines and trips to Target, Dollar Tree or Lakeshore. But for renowned Florida educator Dr. Marvin Dunn, who is on the forefront of the fight for teaching the truth in the fascist laboratory that is Florida, the eve of the start of a new school year meant leading a “Teach No Lies” march to the Miami Dade County School Board, Wednesday, August 16, to protest new white supremacist education standards.

Today, I am honored to speak with Dr. Marvin Dunn, about the fight to teach black history in the face of Governor Ron DeSantis’ white supremacist curriculum changes that suppress, whitewash, justify slavery and the brutality, terror and violence against black people in the United States. Dr. Dunn is the author of many books, including A History of Florida Through Black Eyes, which is, of course, banned. He’s a professor emeritus at Florida International University and co founder of the Miami Center for Racial Justice. He has been leading tours of teachers and young people to places like Rosewood, the site of a 1923 massacre of Black residents by a white mob. And he’s doing this in response to DeSantis’ escalating efforts to further bury and warp Florida’s Black history. Welcome, Dr. Dunn.

Dr. Marvin Dunn 12:27

Thank you. Good to be here.

Sam Goldman 12:28

Thanks for joining me and more importantly, thank you for all you have done and are doing to document, teach and defy these attacks on Black history and defy DeSantis as part of doing that. Let’s start off with: What is the history that Ron DeSantis and the Florida Republican Party more broadly is attempting to bury and outright lie about?

Dr. Marvin Dunn 12:53

Florida’s trying to bury all stories dealing with institutional racism in Florida, which means burying or eliminating Black history, because Florida’s history is steeped in institutional racism. What we are facing in Florida is not just the banning of books, which is bad enough, it’s the banning of ideas. If you say, for example, we will not allow the idea of institutional racism to be taught in Florida schools, you don’t need to ban books, the banning of books will just follow naturally.
What we’re trying to do in Florida is to offer some resistance to this obviously right wing shift in public education, the effort to indoctrinate Christian nationalism in our Florida school system, and to remove any references to Black heroes who resisted, particularly those who stood up and resisted racism — to remove those people, to remove, actually, the history of Black resistance such as the Black Lives Matter movement. Why are they taken that out of the teaching standards in Florida? So what we’re seeing is a trend that will, I think, drift to other states if DeSantis is successful, and we’re going to see public education destroyed. That’s what we feel here in Florida.

Sam Goldman 14:06

I really appreciate the way that you are putting what is at stake being whether or not we have public education, and the role of erasing not just the history, but as part of the history, those who imagined that the world could be more just, that the world could be better, and therefore took action, the erasing of of the public imagination that things could change, that things could be better, and how damaging that is.

Dr. Marvin Dunn 14:36

They take away the heroes our kids need to identify with; those who stood up and fought and represented our race during these very, very troubled times in Florida. So why take them out of the history books? Because there is fear that knowledge will lead to resistance, particularly to what we see happening in our school system that’s being pushed by Republicans. It’s a terrible situation in the sense that our students in Florida are going to be miseducated. If this continues, they will not be able to compete with other students. We’re losing teachers, we cannot get teachers to come to Florida. It’s just a terrible situation.

Sam Goldman 15:10

And as you said, he’s thrown the gauntlet down, and now it’s being replicated in other states. [DMD: That’s right.] I think Arkansas, [DMD: Yeah] was one of the latest following DeSantis’ lead in purging schools of the AP Black History course [DMD: mmhmm], not allowing that to be taught.

Dr. Marvin Dunn 15:27

I think Arkansas could possibly be even worse than Florida. You got Sarah Huckabee Sanders, I think that’s her name. [SG: Yes] Out there as Governor, who was trying to out-DeSantis DeSantis. Every time we have a presidential election, every four years, every time the cycle comes around, some how or other race becomes an issue. And Republicans are the ones who raise it. Whether it’s Barack Obama being an African, or the Willie Horton crime, they always bring race into politics during presidential elections, and this is no different. The head person who is, I think, destroying our country right now with this kind of anti-Black rhetoric and what have you, is DeSantis.

Sam Goldman 16:04

Can you walk us a bit through the new curriculum that Governor DeSantis is forcing, and that teachers are going to be forced to teach? What exactly are these changes?

Dr. Marvin Dunn 16:16

There are two things that we are very upset about. One is obviously the notion that there are personal benefits to slaves as a result of being enslaved. And then second is that teachers are now required to teach that there was Black on white violence in Florida in Ocoee, and Rosewood. Those are absolute lies. There was no such thing as Black violence in Florida against whites in the history of the state of Florida. Yet, in this attempt to equivocate evil, teachers to being required to teach that Blacks committed racial violence against whites in Ocoee and in Rosewood.

I can tell you what the lies are about those in detail, if you wish, but those are the two things that we were so much upset about in Florida. And apparently, the idea that there was personal benefits to being enslaved caught on nationally, so that was seeing a national uprising among not just Blacks, but Whites as well, against this lie that has been pushed in Florida.

Sam Goldman 17:08

It is so horrific. I want to give you an opportunity to to talk a little bit about what actually happened in some of these places because I think you get lost for words, at least I do as an educator, in terms of how warped your intellectual integrity must be to spew this kind of garbage — how little respect you have for children, for young people, let alone humanity. I just want to to bring back to folks that, I think it was a few days, August 12, I think, just days before the start of this academic year, in Miami, you led a group of teachers on one of these “Teach No Lies” tours that you give to Ocoee, Florida, a site of one of the attacks that you were talking about — the site of a white supremacist massacre — literally teaching Black history on this bloody ground.

I want to give you an opportunity to tell more about, maybe this trip, but more importantly, these sites, and why we need to go there, why we need to understand this, because right now, as you said, teachers are teaching in a landscape of a curriculum that’s forcing to say sinister and ludicrous things about slaves benefiting from slavery, or about their massacres, not being massacres against Black people motivated by white supremacist hatred.

Dr. Marvin Dunn 18:35

Well, let’s talk about Ocoee. In 1920, when women got the vote, this was a very contentious time in American politics, especially in the South. In the 1920 election, a Black man named July Perry in Ocoee, Florida went to vote, he was turned away from the polls, allegedly because he hadn’t paid his poll taxes. Mind you, July Perry was one of the richest men, white or Black in Ocoee. He had orange groves and did very well, so his taxes were paid, plus he was an advocate for people paying their taxes. So the lie that he hadn’t paid his poll taxes, was used to turn him away from the polls.

He went to a judge, a Republican judge, a liberal judge, and get instructions to go back to the polls and take the names of the people who have turned them away. A very dangerous thing to ask him to do. In any case, the mob formed when he got back, he had another black man were chased away. He goes to his house, he’s in with his family, maybe one or two other people, relatives, and the mob comes to his house. They surround the house and start shooting into it, and they kill two of their own people. According to the sheriff of Orange County, that’s what happened at Ocoee. July Perry didn’t kill anybody, but yet the historical burden is on him.

And now teachers are being required to tell students that this man killed two white men in Ocoee. It did not happen, they killed each other. So says the Sheriff of Orange County. So that’s why I took 30 teachers from Miami Dade County up to Ocoee a couple of weekends ago, so that we could stand on that ground and tell the story and get it right, and have them go back and teach the truth.

We also went to the site of the Rosewood, 1923 massacre. I’m the only black person today who owns land in Rosewood. I own five acres of land in Rosewood. Rosewood is now a rural community — all white people out there. I’ve been taking teachers to this property — and others, students and parents as well — so that they can experience the Rosewood event as close as you can in these days and times. The lie about Rosewood that teachers are now required to teach was that there was Black on White violence at Rosewood — another lie. Sylvester Kelly was the Black hero of Rosewood. He was an Army vet, World War One, knew how to use a rifle, he was independent, he taught piano, he didn’t depend on white people.

When this lie started a couple of miles away in Sumner that this white woman had been attacked by a black man, a mob comes to Rosewood and they start killing and burning the town. They come to the Perry home and Sylvester Perry is there. It’s his mother’s house, actually. Two story home, one of the nicer homes in Rosewood, and he’s there with his family, his mom, kids and upstairs and the mom comes — his mother goes to the window, raises the window, tries to put a stick to hold the window up. And as she’s telling these people: My son had nothing to do with this. Go away, please leave us alone. And they shot her, killed her, she falls dead in front of her son. And when two of these white men come up onto the porch, he shot them. He shot them dead. And that’s Black on White racial violence? It was at the front of your home. That’s the other lie that the standards require these teachers to teach.

So we go to Rosewood. We spend most of the afternoon there. We’re able to walk on the part of the railroad that operated between Gainesville and Cedar Key, about a 40 mile distance. It runs through my property. So the rails are gone, but the railroad bed is still there, like a green tunnel through the woods. So that’s why I purchased that particular piece of property, because it speaks to that horrible three or four day period when people were out in those woods trying to escape the violence in Rosewood. So that’s why those two places are particularly important and while we will continue to take teachers and others there to teach the truth.

Sam Goldman 22:02

I can only imagine how powerful of an experience that is for students and teachers alike that are able to go with you on these tours. I’m wondering what impact have you begun to see in these tours with maybe what teachers have been able to go back and do with it, or transformations that you’ve seen on the spot amongst young people’s understanding?

Dr. Marvin Dunn 22:25

It’s too early to say what teachers can and will do with it when they go back into the classrooms. They’ve just gone back now. But I can tell you what happens on the ground. Not just in Rosewood, but we’ve taken students other places where these terrible things have happened. For example, there was a lynching of a 15 year-old boy in Live Oak, Florida in 1944, for writing a love letter to a white girl. So we go to his grave as well. That’s the most moving spot for these students, because they’re standing over the grave of a black boy who was lynched in 1944 for being in love.

When we go to Willie James Thomas’ grave, the students cry. A lot of them cry. I asked them: Does this make you hate white people? Because white men killed this boy. “No,” they say. I’ve not had a student yet tell me that what they see on these tours brings anger to them. They say that they’re angry that they didn’t know about these things beforehand; that they weren’t taught these things at school. But are you angry at white people? “No, Dr. Dunn, we’re angry, because there are not teaching us the truth.”

People go to these places with me, we pray, we sing, some people cry, we touch the stone. To me, that’s meaningful, to touch the grave stone. And then we go to another such place. I’m doing this because if we don’t, this history is going to be lost. If we don’t keep at least a little piece of land in Rosewood, that history is going to be lost. So I’ve told my children: If you sell my land, I’m going to come back from my grave and haunt you. Don’t be selling my five acres!”

Sam Goldman 23:45

I think that what you’re doing is incredible, is brave. There needs to be a lot more Doctor Dunns going out and doing this all over the country. Because unfortunately…

Dr. Marvin Dunn 23:56

You know what problem is in Florida? Teachers can’t come out and do this. A lot of folks, in Miami in particular, work for the state government, the county, the City. People are not free to do what I’m doing. DeSantis does not affect my paycheck, I’m retired. I get my check every month whether he likes it or not. Folks have mortgages, they have kids in college, they can’t get out and do what I’m doing. So I’m not not trying to hold myself up as being some sort of an unusually brave person. I respect the fact that this terror in Florida that this man has brought is having the effect of silencing people whose voices should be heard, particularly educators.

Sam Goldman 24:29

Absolutely. I will say that nationwide, we’re also facing a lot of self censorship. Where, in states where there is a little bit more freedom, and it isn’t as fully clamped down as in Florida, teachers — and I say this is one of them — have self censored. With as much at stake as there is, I don’t want to tell people that there will be no risk that there will be no consequence, but there will be a terrible consequence for future generations, if at least some of us don’t take that risk.

So it’s a balancing. I’m not telling people to go and get fired, or to take risks that they can’t take, but some of us do need to be speaking out in this moment or, not only will the students that we’re teaching right now suffer, but students for generations, and a history lost — as much as that history was ever taught, which we could argue about whether we ever taught it. But I think that that’s not delicate balance, but that is the situation that, as educators, we’re in right now.

Dr. Marvin Dunn 25:33

And we have, of course, the influence of Prager University. I don’t know if you’ve heard about Prager, that’s a private educational firm that produces right wing videos for, actually, all ages of kids, but mainly for lower grade levels. That’s now in Florida. These videos are now approved for use in schools in Florida. Among the things that they do is to press the idea that we are a Judeo Christian nation. The problem with that is you need to go further than saying we’re just a Judeo Christian nation, that folks who are Americans are not Jewish or Christian, and they’re Americans.

So, the fact that most of us are one or the other, doesn’t mean we should define ourselves as a Judeo Christian nation, and the others are excluded. That’s one of the things these videos do; they push the narrative that this is a Christian country, and that we stand by Christian values and principles. I’m a Christian, but I have friends who are not Christian and I respect that. One of the videos — I have to speak to this one video — has Columbus, it’s a cartoon, telling kids that it was better to be a slave than to be killed. How the hell does he know?. But that’s one of the Prager University videos that kids are being [subjected to].

Another one has Frederick Douglass in a cartoon, telling kids that the gradualism is best — don’t press for change too quickly, it’s best to go slowly to get social change. Where is this stuff coming from? Why are we having our students subjected to this kind of fascist, right wing, neo-Nazi education? Because that’s what DeSantis is. That’s what the right wing of the Republican Party is. And that’s what’s poisoning the schools in Florida and will poison schools elsewhere if we don’t stop it.

Sam Goldman 27:05

One of the things that I saw that you’re doing, which makes me smile, it makes me smile, is that you are going to be teaching a Black history class this fall at New College. New College, for listeners, was a progressive College in Florida, that that was taken over by DeSantis. Since that happened, there was a mass exodus of professors out of fear, and you’re going to teach a Black history class. What is that going to be like?

Dr. Marvin Dunn 27:39

I wrote the president of New College a letter months ago, asking if I will be allowed to teach a course for free on Black history. Never got a response. I connected with a number of faculty at at New College, including one of the ones that was fired who now works part time for our nonprofit. The group of faculty have agreed to have this course, Black American history, taught this coming fall for credit at New College, and it doesn’t matter if we have a room or not — as I’ve said, I’ll teach the course on the parking lot. I have to.

We will defy DeSantis at New College. We will have the course offered in the college. I’m gonna take New College students and faculty, I’m gonna teach the truth to them. I’m even planning to take New College students and faculty to New York City to study Black art and entertainment. We’re going to lavish attention on New College because that’s where DeSantis says “woke goes to die.” But woke we do very well at New College. Actually the students are coming back to campus as we speak. So it’s gonna be a great semester at New College.

Sam Goldman 28:36

Are you ever afraid, Dr. Dunn? Given the mob that they’ve unleashed. How do you handle that?

Dr. Marvin Dunn 28:41

Well, as I said, I own property in Rosewood and back in September, I had a conflict with my neighbor — neighbor across the street — who tried to run me down, and some folks who were with me, with his truck. This is back in September. He got charged with using his vehicle as a weapon, and he got charged with six counts of hate crimes. He was just convicted, the week before last, in Gainesville, by an all white jury, and he’s out on bond. He’s gonna be sentenced in October. He has a very large family. He’s a very wealthy person.

This is a rural area, and now when I take groups to my property, I have to hire a Florida Highway Patrolman to sit there as long as we’re on the property. What happens as we move forward? am I going into feel safe going to my property? Am I going to feel like a normal person should feel going to your property? I don’t think so. That’s the price that’s to be paid for having brought these hate crimes charges against this man. But am I ever afraid? I don’t think fear will be the right word — cautious, would be more appropriate.

I’m overly cautious when I go to Rosewood because I know what could happen in Rosewood, but I’m not afraid. What are they gonna do, shoot me? That’s the worst they can do. I’ve got a very good life. I’m 83 years old. I have no fear of that. I sort of don’t want to die, but I have no fear of physical danger to me. I will not be stopped in what I’m trying to do because of the threat of physical violence.

Sam Goldman 29:57

Since you are all listening, you would never I believe that Dr. Dunn is 83 years old; you would never believe it. Given the life that you have and what you’ve witnessed in your lifespan — heroic struggles for justice, but also great resurgence of white supremacy — what do you think about the moment that we’re in, and the divisions that you see today?

Dr. Marvin Dunn 30:22

I spent six years in the uniform of the United States Naval officer. I was on two aircraft carriers defending my country before DeSantis was born. This is not the America I spent six years defending. This is not the America that I know. I think this is a passing phase. I think most people in our country, white and Black, Republican and Democrat don’t like fascism, don’t like the direction that we see the country going, don’t want professors being told what to teach, don’t want students being indoctrinated with right wing literature. I think this is not gonna work outside of Florida. I’m hoping that the rest of this country recognizes what we’re doing in Florida to resist this, and that we’ll see resistance to it evolve in other places as well.

Sam Goldman 31:03

As we wrap up our conversation, I know that listeners are wondering what can they do to defend teachers who are teaching the truth, to support these efforts in Florida and nationwide? What can people do to be involved to support this effort?

Dr. Marvin Dunn 31:21

Well, I’m a terrible beggar, but we need money. We need folks to go to our website and donate. Go to MiamiCenterForRacialJustice.org, and please make a donation. We’re taking these teachers and others on these tours for free. They pay nothing. But we can’t do that without donations. So I asked the folks who are listening to this podcast, please go to MiamiCenterForRacialJustice.org and make a contribution so we can continue to site in Florida. It’s very lonely down here, frankly. I know that y’all are watching from other parts of the country, but this feels like a very lonely fight here in Florida. So help us, please.

Sam Goldman 31:56

Thank you, Dr. Dunn, for taking the time to talk with us to share your experience, your expertise and your perspective, and just sending you the best wishes for this academic year, and all the work that you’re doing.

Dr. Marvin Dunn 32:10

Thank you so much. Thank you. Have a good day.

Sam Goldman 32:13

Right now, we are on the road to atrocity. We don’t need to stay on that road, but we do need to acknowledge the road that we’re on. This road to atrocity is paved with: It could never happen here; the people aren’t, or couldn’t become that bad. We are confronted by the most dangerous myth in world history, that pernicious American exceptionalism that deludes itself into thinking: We can’t, we wouldn’t, we aren’t. Even though this is the same country that did, and is, and only exists because of all that. This is a nation birthed from genocide of native people. A country that gained its wealth from chattel slavery, and its standing in the world through constant wars for Empire. We know the outcome when good people choose to ignore these fascist movements, hoping they will go away, or hoping they will be exempt from the violence, or that someone else will stop them. And those outcomes are uniformly horrendous.

Now, I want to share an announcement for those in Chicago or in the Chicago area, from the Chicago Revolution Club. They’re planning a protest Saturday, September 9 to call out fascist lynch mob instigator Jason Aldean when his tour arrives in Chicago, and they invite you to join them. Jason Aldean’s mega hit, Try That in a Small Town, is a vicious celebration of America’s lynch mob tradition that topped the country music charts for weeks this summer. The Chicago Revolution Club is going out with the slogans: “No more lynch mobs in and out of uniform”, “No more standing by while good ol’ boys prepare for civil war,” “We need and we demand a whole new way to live,” “We need to and are organizing for revolution.” They call on everyone who is sick and tired of the growing racist, anti women, anti LGBTQ+, and anti immigrant hatred and violence to join them in protest Saturday, September 9 at Tinley Park. For more, see their Instagram which will be linked in the show notes.

Sam Goldman 34:28

Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. Got thoughts or questions off this episode? We want to hear them. Ideas for topics or guests? Yes. Please send them to us. Have a skill you think could help? We want to know all about it. Reach me at the site previously known as Twitter, @SamBGoldman. Drop me a line at [email protected], or we’re on Threads we’re on Bluesky, we’re on Mastodon @RefuseFascism, or you can leave us a voicemail — see the show notes for the button and how to do it.

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Give today at patreon.com/RefuseFascism or visit RefuseFascism.org and hit that donate button,. Much thanks to Richie Marini, Lina Thorne, and Mark Tinkleman for helping produce this episode. Thanks to incredible volunteers, we have transcripts available for each show, so be sure to visit RefuseFascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox. We’ll be back next Sunday. Until then, in the name of humanity, we refuse to accept a fascist America!