Stop The Genocide in Gaza

Stop The Genocide in Gaza

Refuse Fascism Episode 176

Sun, Oct 22, 2023 2:46PM • 33:59

Sam Goldman 00:22

Welcome to Episode 176 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. I’m joined by one of our show’s co producers, Mark Tinkelman who is cohosting today. Refuse Fascism exposes analyzes, and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States.

Mark Tinkleman 00:53

Today, we’ll be talking about the genocide in Gaza and a dangerous unity between imperialist democracy and fascism. Plus, what’s happening in the House of Representatives and more.,

Sam Goldman 01:03

But first, we want to take a moment to ask you to take one step out and grow the base of listeners, share, discuss, and contribute to this fight to refuse fascism. I want to share two recent reviews. One over on Apple podcasts from RoRovigo3, who wrote: “Awake to our rights. Love your podcast.” Thanks RoRovigo3. And over on Instagram, Brooklyn, New York Girl commented: “Always look forward to hearing the next episode on Refuse Fascism. I love the depth you go into, showing exactly what we are up against with the fascist leadership we are living under in the United States of America.”

What they’re getting at is those who want to be in leadership in the White House, although it’s in state houses in someplaces, so get that too, and thanks for writing. Reach more people who want to refuse fascism by writing a review on Apple podcasts and drop a five stars wherever you listen to your pods. I really can’t overemphasize what difference it makes. Go tell some strangers why you listen, and make sure too. Subscribe/follow, so you never miss an episode. And of course, keep up all that great commenting, sharing on the socials. And if you already do all those wonderful things — thank you — become a patron to support the show for as little as $2 a month at patreon.com/RefuseFascism.

Mark Tinkleman 02:49

And we want to thank everyone who already does support us.

Sam Goldman 02:53

So let’s get to it. The focus of this podcast is on American fascism. Why are we talking about what’s happening in Gaza?

Mark Tinkleman 03:03

Let’s give a little more context than, for example, Joe Biden usually does. On May 14, 1948, the major powers of the world granted Palestine to a reactionary Zionist government, kicking off decades of ethnic cleansing. Then skip forward to October 7th of this year, when Hamas who is the governing party of the Gaza Strip, committed a strike against Israel, killing over a thousand people, both military and civilian, which then kicked off a new round in acute fighting — essentially the incineration of the Gaza Strip by Israel. Israel has been carpet bombing whole neighborhoods, hospitals, churches, mosques for essentially two weeks now; a population that’s been trapped for years in the Gaza Strip, held captive by Israel, and secondarily by Egypt.

That’s the essentials of what’s happening, which brings us to why we’re talking about it, which is that there are moments when really anyone, any human being with a platform, should be speaking up, should be taking action, and should be using whatever platforms — whatever they already have, or whatever they can create, to try to affect the course of history. So there’s that level. There’s another level where this is very directly related to the threat of American fascism and the rise of global fascism; something that we’ve covered extensively from Modi and in India to Bolsonaro.

One key theme that we have talked about on the show is trying to give people a scientific sense of what fascism is. It has to be understood that Fascism is integrally related to the economic/political system of capitalism/imperialism. It is something that’s driven by the dynamics of that generalizing a system that essentially is what runs the world in this day and age. Is not girls, it is not squirrels, it is capitalism/imperialism. In moments of compounding crises, like what we’re facing now, many governments, including the United States government, and more fundamentally, the the ruling classes, see fascism as a legitimate option of a way to rule their societies that contains all of the contradictions that otherwise may fling it apart and get way out of their control.

In this moment, there is a conflagration a unity between those sections of the ruling classes represented by people like Biden, the Democratic Party, and a lot of their intellectual representatives — you see them in the New York Times and The Washington Post — and, essentially, the fascist sections, both in this country and also, such as Netanyahu in in Israel, who’s actually carrying out this genocide. So that relationship is really important to explore.

Sam Goldman 06:06

I guess I would go back to the the most fundamental point, which is given the fact that the past couple weeks, we have seen the acceleration of a genocide that is completely supported, including financially and militarily, by the United States, it would be a complete abdication of our responsibility, not just as like people who have a podcast, therefore a tiny little platform in the world, but also just as basic human beings, if we remain silent, while a captive civilian population is brutally slaughtered — restricted from having the basic necessities, like clean water by this government, the United States government’s attack dog in the region, which is Israel.

To make clear, the movement to refuse fascism, we do not have a stance on the state of Israel, nor should we. We’re a movement seeking to take responsibility for the fascists in this government. We’ve consistently been aware to the fact that Fascism is a global issue and have spoken out about, to learn from and also to sound the alarm against, the global rise of fascism and the fascists that are in power in other parts of the world — nod to Modi, nod to Bolsonaro, nod to Duterte, and nod to Bibi. That is all part of the terrain.

Look, there’s going to be listeners who believe in the State of Israel, and who in their heart hurt at what’s happening right now, and we welcome them to in this conversation. There are people who are listening right now, who are feeling never again means we need to do whatever we need to in response to the massacre on October 7 by Hamas, which is not a force for liberation in the world. We welcome those listeners too, to be part of this conversation.

I want to start with that, and I want to say that there were some things that we said last week that I just wanted to reiterate: That genocide is unconscionable, and that really is what we’re seeing. And that revenge isn’t liberation. And this goes for everyone: People are not their government. In this country, we have a responsibility for the crimes that our government commits, and right now, the Biden administration, while not fascist is enthusiastically supplying and supporting mass murder in Gaza; giving bear hugs. These war crimes, the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, the locking off natural resources, basically, bombing hospitals or places of worship or schools.

All of that would not happen without the green light of the U.S. government, and overriding that green light, through the power of the people in the streets, we believe is a worthy goal because silence is complicity and the harm that we are already seeing has the potential for escalation on an unimaginable scale, and it must be opposed. Because on this show we’re talking about, as people living in this country, and the fascist danger, we’re not going to go into the whole history of this story that didn’t start on October 7th. We’re gonna encourage you to go to the show notes after you listen if you want to learn more; there’s gonna be things that you can watch things that you can read, if that’s an interest to you.

I did want to talk with you about the fact that you were talking about the unity and I want to go back to that. [MT: Yes] The unity between those in power in this country, the United States — the Democrats and the Republi-fascists, with some confusing exceptions, we might think, you know, there are some, I guess, isolationist GOP folks, and there are some Democrats who are calling for a ceasefire — everyone’s pretty much in line with the slaughter and the massive dehumanization of Palestinian people. The ability to see the suffering of the Israeli families, and the refusal to see the suffering of the Palestinian families, that is something that is different — the fact that everyone’s in line around this.

Netanyahu is a fascist, right? [MT: mmhmm] The vast majority of Israelis, now I think it’s 80%, hold him in some way responsible for the October 7th Hamas attack and the subsequent step that the Israeli people have called for his resignation at times. There’s been massive protests, calling out his fascism. There has been the equivalent of their New York Times, Haaretz, calling for him to resign [MT: mmhmm] for mishandling the situation, I think, is their framing. All these things are very real, b00ut we also have to be real, that all those in power are in line with the Israeli response to October 7th.

Mark Tinkleman 11:10

From a lot of different angles, people have been comparing October 7th to 9/11. There is actually a legitimate comparison, although some of the folks using it, I think, are very blind to what the real comparison is, which is that 9/11 really, the main essence of what happened then, was the U.S. opened the bomb doors, over a quarter of humanity. It kicked the 21st century American fascist movement into high gear. There were people screaming out their windows: Nuke them all. That’s just one small thing, but I think it really represented the moment.

Glenn Beck and his movement at one point — 9/12 — because people should remember how they felt the day after 9/11, because to their minds, we should always feel like we’re under attack, and we have to murder everybody. That is the imperialist, the fascist response to any kind of violence against them, no matter what the power relations are. One other thing that we saw after 9/11 was a broad, broad unity amongst the ruling class, even as they criticize George W. Bush and stuff, they all signed on to the Patriot Act. They all signed on to the wars. Joe Biden, of all people, very much. He was a hawk Democrat.

We are facing a situation — I can’t imagine what it is in Israel right now with that, but in this country right now — we’ve had a wave of censorship of Palestinian voices, of Arab voices. We’ve had a wave of censorship of, even, people who are in unity or supportive. There’s been a surge of bloodlust from both Democrats and Republicans in word and in deed. There’s been a spate of hate crimes, including the vicious murder of a Palestinian child. [SG: In the Chicago area, right?] Yes. We get into the details of some of this censorship. On MSNBC, immediately, they pulled their three anchors of Arab descent, who had clearly the most experience in covering this story. Also, we’re not vociferously pro Palestine, let’s be clear.

Sam Goldman 13:20

What was clear was that none of them were pro Hamas. [MT: Right] There was a response to people to Harvard students,

Mark Tinkleman 13:28

There was a truck, literally circling the campus, doxing the students, one of these trucks with the billboards in the back, with information on students who simply signed this letter. There was a conference canceled in Texas, after enormous pressure [SG: Bomb threats. It was at the care banquet?] It was the U.S. campaign for Palestinian rights. Initially, the Marriott actually called them and said: Well, we’re gonna need $100,000 for security. And then the next day was like: Nope, we’re just going to cancel the entire thing.

In a lot of European states, this is happening too. In Germany, at the Frankfurt Book Fair, Adania Shibli — her book has been really well received around the world — they canceled a whole event for her, and I believe there have been other events for her book that had been cancelled. But this was like one of the key events of the whole fair.

Sam Goldman 14:16

In Paris, there’s a ban on pro-Palestinian groups.

Mark Tinkleman 14:20

In Paris, in England, I think there was at least one other country, blanket bans on pro- Palestine protests. This is very reminiscent of what happened after 9/11. I think that a lot of people will may forget how things were back then. Or may think: Oh, yeah, even then we all knew that it was a bad idea to go into Iraq. That is not true. It was extremely contentious. One thing that was actually, in thinking about this, that was really important, that connects to something that you were saying earlier about the connection between, you know, Refuse Fascism, refusing fascism, and this organization, this movement to stop American fascism, and the fact that we’re serious about you uniting all who can be united to stop American fascism, and also we’re going to talk about this to have a scientific view of fascism.

It’s really important that back when the war in Iraq was happening — I was raised a Zionist — at that time, it was striking, that profile was very uncomfortable, because I realized that every single person who, when I was out in the streets getting increasingly passionate to stop the war in Iraq, I was increasingly realizing that everyone who was serious about that was also against the genocide of Palestinians. I think that in any serious movement, there’s a contention. In any serious movement, there’s a contention between uniting as broadly as possible and having really hard conversations, like the one that, hopefully, we can open up with some of our listeners through this. I just wanted to put that in there as well as sort of an addendum. But I wanted to get your thoughts on this 9/11 parallel.

Sam Goldman 15:59

One of guests on our show, oh, two, maybe three times, Wajahat Ali, has done a really good job of reminding people of what it was like for Muslims, South Asians, people of Arab descent. A huge population of people in this country, post 9/11, demonized, made to feel subhuman, deemed like as animals, and that’s really the the picture being painted of Palestinians. The way that people are being taught to tolerate, and not just tolerate, but cheer for the murder of civilians, the murder of children and just to watch that again, in real time, is heartbreaking. And to be like: Did we learn nothing people? Did we learn nothing from campaigns of misinformation, and let’s just be real campaigns of lies, and the constant spewing of really, this xenophobic, hate filled, garbage ad nauseam.

Where does that leave? It does lead to bomb threats. It does lead to people being targeted. It does lead to the stabbing of a mother over and over again, in her house — and we should actually have the details of that, if you could pull that up. This is a really good example, hearing that garbage over and over and over again leads people to do the unthinkable, or primes people to do the unthinkable. The man who slotted Wadea Al-Fayoume, the kindergarten child, just shortly after his sixth birthday, was stabbed to death 26 times because he was Muslim. His mother was stabbed as well, in Chicago. The person who murdered him was charged with hate crimes, but this is just the beginning unless we refute it, and we show that we will not stand by it, will not stand aside.

We’ve got to come out as loud and resolutely as we can that we’re not going to allow that this demonization to continue, that we’re not going to stand aside. We’re not going to accept that criticizing a genocide that this country is funding and supporting is verboten or whatever. We’re not gonna accept that you can’t…

Mark Tinkleman 18:29

That that’s been met with threats on people’s lives. [SG: Yeah] And I have to say, especially people that are of our generation or older, I often feel people aren’t learning the lessons from our lived history, but like this is an open book test right now.

Sam Goldman 18:45

We could go on and on and on about this. Did we learn nothing from Abu Ghraib? Nothing.

Mark Tinkleman 18:51

Did you want to speak about what’s giving you hope, right now?

Sam Goldman 18:54

Before we get to that, how do you see this uptick of anti Muslim, anti Arab sentiment in this country [MT: mmhmm] intersecting with a situation where the people are already very, very divided with a lot of violence?

Mark Tinkleman 19:13

On one level, to just say it plainly, it’s very likely that Trump gets back into office. And if not him, if not in this next election, it’s still developing in that direction. Somebody else in that same vein could be worse in the next election, because that is the dynamic that we are on. That’s the trajectory that we’re on, not because of people’s personalities, not because of the personalities of the people running the show, not because of who Netanyahu is or who Biden is, or who any of these people are, but because of the intersection of capitalism/imperialism, with the crises that in large part that system that political and economic system have brought to bear during the Trump years.

One of the things that I was surprised by was that I thought this round of fascism, I didn’t think they would have to do all this anti semitism stuff. It’s not that I thought they were better than that. I just didn’t think that it was necessary for them. I thought it would be a liability for them. But they did it anyway. When I was in Charlottesville, and I saw them, literally chanting Jews will not replace us, it was horrifying, and it was also like, is this a time warp? Is this some horrifying cartoon?

What we’re seeing here, with Islamophobia that is raging right now, the anti Arab violence and sentiment — I think people can forget about, it’s easy to forget about the actual violence, because there’s so much sentiment — this is just going to add to that flaming heap as things develop if we stay quiet, if the decent people in this country continue to think that somehow this will all be resolved, somehow things will go back to normal, somehow, somebody else will take care of it. We’ve seen this trajectory for far too long.

I think this might be where we could get to what’s giving you hope because there have been unique developments on this end, with some people trying to pierce this veil of silence, and doing it in a way that — I was 14 on 9/11, so I don’t remember all of it, but — in ways that I don’t remember from back then. People really immediately standing up. Arab people, Palestinian people, Jewish people, even people who get this don’t feel that they have a personal tie to it, but saying fuck it, I’m going to make a statement. I’m going to take action. You know, there have been significant protests. That’s not going to cut it, but it is something.

Sam Goldman 21:38

Some of the things that, I guess give me hope if that’s your question, [MT: Yeah.] is that we’re seeing some of the most beautiful resistance from the Jewish community to this genocide than I have ever seen in my life. Whether it be from rabbis to Jewish people of faith to secular Jews, like myself, being in the streets in mass. And not just in the streets, but blocking offices, having citizens at at Warren’s office, Sanders’ office, [MT: The White House] I was gonna get to that. Really being everywhere — at people’s homes — think they went to like Harris’s home for an action. And yes, they’ve been in D.C. in the streets of D.C., and they blocked, I think it was 17, entrances to the White House in nonviolent civil disobedience, getting arrested, upwards to possibly 10,000 Jewish people and allies in the streets outside. And then in the building, hundreds demanding ceasefire in the Cannon House [office building], 300 people arrested or something.

Truly, truly stunning. Chanting: Never again, for anyone — really taking the true meaning is of “never again”, that it’s not just for never again for me or my people, but never again for anyone anywhere — that our grief is not a cry for war, and to not weaponize their grief to justify genocide. In addition to that, I’m also given hope by the the 55 people of prominence, artists and others, who have issued a demand to Biden to call for Israel/Gaza ceasefire, saying that compassion must prevail. It’s Artists for Ceasefire. We’ll link to that in the show notes too. Those are just some things that are are giving me hope. I’m also getting home from the shift in a lot of sentiment where I feel like it’s different.

Mark Tinkleman 23:45

One thing that comes to mind is that some journals, galleries, that are not political, are taking a stand. The first thing that comes to mind is Hyperallergic, the art journalism website. They’ve been covering protests. They’re activist-y, but they’re primarily a cultural institution. That is not their core commitment to the issue of Palestine, but they are doing the right thing. They are using the platform that they’ve developed to take a stand. They have Dread Scott’s piece on the front page today. It’s just one example. There are people who, this isn’t their thing, but they are making it their thing, and that is really important, when people who have some level of influence, even if it’s not a lot, or institutions, I think that that is really key. Again, we’ve gotta go way past where we’re at.

Sam Goldman 24:37

What I’m getting at as these are kernels, or like seeds of something. [MT: Yeah.] I think that they need to be nurtured and that we need to work with people to pull away from things that stand in the way of stopping this. To me, revenge is one of those.

Mark Tinkleman 24:59

Mmhmm. Anti intellectualism, the unwillingness to search for answers, the feeling like it’s not your place… It’s everybody’s place to try to emancipate yeah the world.

Sam Goldman 25:13

Un-conflating things that shouldn’t be completed. Like conflating Zionism with Judaism, they’re not the same. [MT: Yes.] Conflating anti Zionism with anti semitism. They’re also not the same. And likewise, conflating Hamas with the sentiments of all of Palestinian people, or all of anybody with anything [MT: Right.] is just wrong. Was there anything else on that you wanted…

Mark Tinkleman 25:37

No. I think that that covers a lot of that.

Sam Goldman 25:40

Is there anyone we wanted to shout out? We wanted to shout some people out, so we’re giving shout outs to: [vocally imitates a musical fanfare] In addition to the If Not Now people, I really want people to take a moment — it’s filled with dark humor — and watch — yeah, here I am out here telling people to watch Piers Morgan, but — there is a powerful interview — mainly you watch it for Bassem Youssef, the guest. He uses dark humor about the absurdity of the situation, which I think is like the only way to cope with some of this madness. He answers what is Israel supposed to do? in a way that I think is brilliant. You should check it out.

Also Jewish Voice for Peace, for organizing incredibly powerful protests across this country, especially in Washington, DC. We also want to acknowledge signers of the open letter to Biden calling for a ceasefire now, published with The Guardian, a group of Jewish American writers, artists and academics oppose what the Israeli government is doing with U.S. assistance. This open letter was signed by Judith Butler, Masha Gessen, Rachel Kushner, Ben Lerner, V. Formerly Eve Ensler, and others.

They wrote: “We believe it is possible and in fact necessary to condemn Hamas’ actions and acknowledge the historical and ongoing oppression of the Palestinians. Believe it is possible and necessary to condemn Hamas’ attack and take a stand against the collective punishment of Gazans that is unfolding and accelerating as we write.” A link to that is in the show notes. And we want to shout out Revcomm.us and RnL show, Revolution, Nothing Less show, for their incisive coverage on this topic. You can check the show notes for some of those resources. Any things you want to give a shout out to?

Sam Goldman 27:27

I do want to actually shout out to Shaun King. I disagree with him on strategy things. On the other hand, unfairly, I think, there’s some bullshit about him out there. But he’s built a platform and he has consistently been using it undauntedly to show the realities in a way that a lot of people have cowered away from. That is a really valuable asset.

Sam Goldman 27:53

Back to the U.S. and the fascism happening here. I wanted to also talk about the House. [MT: Yes] Some people are like: I never thought I’d be thanking the GOP for being such a mess. But I’m thanking the GOP for being such a mess, because that means they can’t send more money to kill people. I don’t think that is at all how this works. But I did want to say just a couple things about the madness that is now circus 3.0 of this Speaker of the House evolving situation, which I think really points to a couple of things for me.

One is the complete normalization of threats of violence against political opponents. The whole situation was impacted by the fact that people’s spouses were being threatened if they didn’t vote for Jim Jordan, then the final vote happened in secret against him. What I wanted to say on it was not what you could read in the New York Times about how many votes he got or what CNN would air on how many less votes he got, but there is a sense where people are like: They can’t rule; They can’t govern; They aren’t together.

I have a few thoughts on that. One, the chaos is part of their point. They don’t actually believe in government in the same way. They don’t want things to run as usual. They don’t want the aspects of people getting basic needs, sometimes even happening at all. They want a situation where they are required to come in and save the day and save the day through their strongman fascism. That’s part of the thing, and make it absolutely incapable for those who aren’t fascists to continue business as usual. And there is an ideology and a strategy behind that. It’s not just for the sake of chaos, there’s a point of that chaos.

I would also say that there is contention, including contention amongst the Republi-fascists. There are some that, while fascist, aren’t lunatic. That’s a struggle. There aren’t many, but [MT: They’re more strategic.] we’re not dealing with some moderate section that somehow got lost in the mix. But there is a struggle there, and that struggle shouldn’t be wanting the good old days of the Republican Party; can’t they get their shit together? kind of thing. Or looking on and saying: Oh, they’re doomed, because people will see that they can’t run things. Did you have any thoughts on that?

Mark Tinkleman 30:40

I want to reiterate some of what you’re saying, b it is important to point out that we’ve had a number of guests who made the really important point that there’s a fascist division of labor. The circus that is the House of Representatives, yes their job in this fascist division of labor is to essentially run that element of the government into the ground. For multiple purposes, because, as Sam said, they don’t want people to actually receive services, and because they want to de legitimize the government, as it is run right now, by their opposition; by the Democrats. That doesn’t mean that the fascists don’t have an agenda, because you can see their agenda. You can see their agenda in the Supreme Court. You can see their agenda on the states that they control. And in fact, them running the House into the ground actually helps the people in the courts, in the States, those fascists, do their part of the fascist agenda. So I think that that’s really important.

Sam Goldman 31:38

We are going to put some resources in the show notes. And this was just the start of a conversation. Thanks for joining me and talking about this really urgent situation.

Mark Tinkleman 31:53

Thanks for having me on.

Sam Goldman 31:56

Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. Got thoughts or questions on this episode? We want to hear them! Ideas for topics or guests? Yes, please. Send them to us. Have a skill you think could help? We want to know all about it. Reach me at the site previously known as Twitter @SamBGoldman. You can of course drop me a line at [email protected]. We are on Threads, Mastodon, BlueSky,Instagram, all the places @RefuseFascism. So find us. You can also leave us a voicemail. See the show notes, click the button. We’d love to hear from you.

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Thanks to Richie Marini and Lina Thorne for helping produce this episode, along with Mark Tinkleman being for also coming on the show. Thanks to incredible volunteers, we have transcripts available for each episode, so be sure to visit RefuseFascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox. We’ll be off next week, but we will be back on November 5. So until then, in the name of humanity, we refuse to accept a fascist America!