Genocide in Gaza, Repression in the US

Genocide in Gaza, Repression in the US

Refuse Fascism Episode 194 with Erin Nicole Morse & Lela Tolajian

Sun, Mar 17, 2024 3:01PM • 1:00:07

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 00:00

The fact that the repression is focused on spaces of learning of, spaces of study, tells us that there is a real fear that people will be learning, teaching and telling the truth. There is something very important in professors and students speaking out. They wouldn’t try to repress us this viciously if there weren’t a power in what we have to say. Ask yourself: What can I do today? What is my role today to stop this genocide?

Lela Tolajian 00:24

It is scary for some people to speak out. There definitely are students who are being targeted, who are facing disciplinary action, who are facing expulsion, people who’ve lost jobs, but no consequence you could ever have for speaking out could even be the smallest fraction of what people on the ground in Gaza are facing. Keep Gaza in your minds and don’t just let it break your heart. Let it actually motivate you to get involved.

Sam Goldman 01:08

Welcome to Episode 194 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes analyzes, and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States. Fascism isn’t just a gross combination of horrific reactionary policies. It is a qualitative change and how society is governed. And here’s what’s crucial: Once in power, fascism essentially eliminates traditional democratic rights.

I want to give a special welcome to new listeners, and a thank you to everyone who shares the show to help reach more people during the year when refusing fascism is needed more than ever. Here’s what one listener of the show had to say this past week with their Apple podcast review: GrowIntheSun and gave us five stars and said: Yes now, such needed and useful information. Thanks GrowIntheSun. And after you listen to today’s show, be sure to share it with others. Click the Share button in your app to send this episode to a friend, or 10. Or let the world know why you listen by rating and reviewing on Apple podcasts or your listening platform of choice. Today we’re sharing two interviews focusing on the suppression of dissent against Israel’s genocide in Gaza. First you’ll hear from Professor and activist Nicole Morse and then from Georgetown University student organizer, Leila Tolajian.

Sam Goldman 02:54

But first a couple of thoughts on the events from this past week as they relate to the accelerating Republi-fascist threat. This week, the prospect of Trump facing any legal accountability for attempting a coup faded further back into the mirage from whence it came. And those who kept you passive with the lie that justice is coming, wrapping you in passivity as immigrants are demonized, women are relegated to second class citizens, and LGBTQ folks are getting legislated out of public existence in red states across the country, have — no surprise — arisen once more to tell you: Hush, hush now, there’s one imperative, vote to stop him. As if people didn’t already do that. As if there wasn’t a violent coup attempt. As if anything were done to hold Trump accountable for the past several years to change the nature of elections in this country to reduce gerrymandering and voter suppression or voter intimidation, or to do really anything to prevent the next coup.

Instead, there is Trump and his fully fascist party, battle tested, and even more dangerous, genocidal, and revanchist lunatics that they are, setting the terms for all of society, telling you again and again, they will not accept any election that they do not win. Trump is free to deliver Nazi campaign rallies, decrying:

Donald Trump 04:20

If you call them people, I don’t know if you call it people. In some cases, they’re not people in my opinion, but I’m not allowed to say that because the radical left says it’s a terrible thing to say. They say you have to vote against him, because did you hear what he said about humanity? I’ve seen the humanity and these humanity, these are bad. These are animals, okay. And we have to stop it.

Sam Goldman 04:40

Just to look at the RNC, remade in Trump’s image, for a preview of what a second term would hold: Installing loyalists top to bottom. Political violence and the theatrics of violence, preparing for real world violence, now completely commonplace. See the beatings of of Biden effigy at a Kansas GOP fundraiser earlier this month, or vigilantes in tactical gear outside a ballot dropbox in Maricopa County, Arizona. Trump remains free to threaten. He said the following yesterday and it has barely been mentioned by the media:

Donald Trump 05:18

Now if I don’t get elected, it’s going to be a bloodbath for the whole… that’s going to be the least of it, it’s going to be a bloodbath for the country… that will be the least of it. But they’re not gonna sell those cars that building massive factories, a friend of mine…

Sam Goldman 05:30

As others have noted, this was promised by some of his prominent supporters in 2016. But you see, we have enough experience dealing with Mango Mussolini for us to know full well that this is preparation, not just performance — and this time, he has precedent, experience, a stacked Supreme Court and the full backing of an entire party, and the “conservative” apparatus to make it real, along with tens of millions of rabid fascist supporters who are armed to the teeth. It is, at this point, pure delusion to listen to the incantations of “only the vote can stop him” as he promises a bloodbath if he isn’t anointed victor once more.

We have to get real about the danger and stop lying to ourselves and others. It is time for bold truth telling. On the track we’re headed on, we’re going to a place that is so dark people do not want to even confront that this is the trajectory. The so called normal way things have been is rapidly being ripped apart, and it’s becoming clearer and clearer there won’t be a pendulum swing, or some magic Gorilla Glue, that re-coheres things back to the status quo, a status quo that, let’s get real, helped grease the tracks for this nightmare. But I’m not without hope, and I don’t want you to be either. More and more people are questioning and being forced to question the ways that things are have been, and whether they have to stay that way. This is where the light lives and where, I believe, and I hope you will too, that seeds for a better future germinate.

So now today’s topic. It’s 2024, fascism is rising across the globe. In this context, we’ve seen five months of extraordinarily violent ethnic cleansing in Gaza. Over 30,000 killed, over 90% of the entire population of 2.3 million internally displaced. Massive starvation employed as a weapon of war. In what the Israeli government is telling its citizens, and what they are telling the world, we see key elements of fascist propaganda, and disinformation. And we see much of the relatively, “liberal” sections of Israeli society lining up behind the genocide even as many oppose the fascist Netanyahu.

Meanwhile, in this country, we are seeing a massive and bipartisan suppression campaign against Muslims and Arabs generally, and targeting anyone who stands up against genocide, or for the people of Palestine. In this situation, not only do we see fascists unleashed, but also the dynamics of capitalism/imperialism, compelling ruling powers across the globe toward fascism. Biden has been set on maintaining the status quo of American democracy and American empire, and yet, in Palestine, like on the border key strongholds of that status quo are facing objective crises. Even as Biden attempts to compartmentalize and cover over the blatant cruelty with which the Empire is dealing with these crises, the blood thirstiness of the American fascists is on full display, embracing this cruelty and advancing a program to make it a defining feature of government and society.

In striking contrast to all of this is the growing multinational movement to stop this genocide, and particularly the role of Jewish voices in loudly rejecting the violence done in their names, and saying in a million ways that the liberation of Jews, Arabs and all people is bound together. Today, we’re sharing interviews with two people who have taken up this fight. Now, here’s my conversation with Nicole Morse, which was recorded February 27, 2024.

For people of conscience, sitting back and doing nothing as your government helps carry out a genocide isn’t an option, especially when it’s done in your name. Our guest has put their career and their body on the line to stop the genocide in Gaza, fueled by their faith as an anti Zionist Jew. To help us understand the repression censorship and blacklisting of pro Palestinian voices, I’m glad to be speaking with Nicole Erin Morse, who is a scholar of queer and trans media production and a community organizer in South Florida with Jewish Voice for Peace, and the Community Hotline for Incarcerated People. They have published original research in Jump Cut, Collateral, and elsewhere, they have a book Selfie Aesthetics: Seeing Trans Feminist Futures in Self-Representational Art, which is available through Duke University Press. Welcome, Nicole. Thanks for joining us.

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 10:20

Thank you for having me.

Sam Goldman 10:21

You have taken repeated action, including civil disobedience actions to stop the genocide happening right now in Gaza. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the actions that you’ve participated in? And most essentially: Why you’ve decided to, as a scholar and as a Jewish person, be in the streets demanding a ceasefire now?

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 10:49

I’ve chosen to be active right now. Because I grew up learning about the Holocaust,I grew up as someone who was very invested in justice, and I asked myself, as so many of us do, what would I have done? In many situations, not just this current genocide, I’ve had the opportunity to see what my answer to that question would be by how I conduct myself. In our current era, I’ve been seeing the harm that is done to people in the name of the prison industrial complex — taking action, there is a way of saying: What would I do when people are suffering injustice?

In October, I was at the point of having been involved with Jewish Voice for Peace for about 10 years. Like many Jews, I grew up surrounded by propaganda and Hasbara. I had an awakening in my twenties, when I realized that what I had learned about the state of Israel was wrong, and I became involved in Jewish Voice for Peace, because it was important to me to take action on this issue as a Jew, since these atrocities — the ethnic cleansing the occupation, and the blockade — these are being carried out, supposedly, in our name — supposedly, for the safety of Jews. So, in October, I chose to get involved with many different actions.

As many locales around the country now around the world have seen, we have had nonstop protests. The movement in the streets has just been continuous, action after action. It was important for me to show up to as many as I could and to be involved, and I also felt like it was important for me as a Jew, to take additional risks — risks that I hadn’t taken before. So I chose to go to Senator Rick Scott’s office on October 17th, and with a few other Jews from Jewish Voice for Peace, South Florida, to refuse to leave until we were able to deliver a letter to the Senator. As a result, we were arrested for that nonviolent civil disobedience. Since then, we have continued to organize, to collaborate with the South Florida Coalition for Palestine, which includes Palestinian, Muslim, Christian and other organizers throughout the region, to try to do what we can to stop this genocide.

What we hear from people in Palestine is that, although what we have done so far is clearly not enough, because they are being slaughtered, that what we are doing does matter, and it does give them some hope, to see the pictures of people filling the streets, chanting, blocking traffic, getting arrested, taking risks, all to say: This genocide is not in our names — and all to demand a ceasefire immediately,

Sam Goldman 13:37

Before we started recording, you were telling me about in action that you just participated in. I don’t know if you want to say any more about that?

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 13:46

Sure. This Sunday, my friends, and I chose to interrupt an event that was featuring Alan Dershowitz at Temple Emanuel in Miami Beach. This was an event that was particularly disturbing to us, as Jews, because it was a temple, a synagogue, a place of worship, a place that should be holy, and they were featuring a man who has done truly horrific things in his life, and who is consistently one of the boosters of genocide — the boosters of ethnic cleansing. He is providing a continuous cover of rationality and supposed good faith arguments to support people who want to believe that what is happening in Israel is somehow excusable, that what Israel is doing to Palestinians is somehow just or reasonable. We wanted to make sure that he heard, and that the people in that synagogue heard that what he’s saying to them when he claims that Israel never kills non combatants, when he claims that the problem is exclusively Hamas and not the decades of ethnic cleansing, apartheid, blockade siege, and occupation, that all of these lies are what they are: Falsehoods that are misleading our people.

It’s especially important to call this out because we’re watching a Jewish community that is increasingly split, and split in ways that are perhaps irreparable, as some people choose to believe the propaganda and to dig into ideas of supremacy, to believe that Jewish safety and security can only be purchased at the expense of Palestinian lives, and others of us believe that we can all be free, and we can all be safe, and we can work toward that together. And it was particularly meaningful to do this action with some of our Palestinian collaborators who are in the coalition, because we have been working together for months and years, in fact, before October 7, 2023, demonstrating that Palestinians and Jews can work together, can coexist, and can create something beautiful together.

So as Professor Dershowitz was speaking about the situation in Gaza, as he was saying that what is happening is actually not enough violence — he was telling the audience that Israel’s only fault has been that has been too weak, and that Israel must demonstrate strength — which is of course, a very overtly fascist statement — as he was saying that my friend Monica stood up and said: Genocide is not a Jewish value. She described how she is the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, and as she was repeating again, that genocide is against everything Judaism stands for, the police removed her. Dershowitz then started saying that anyone who claims to be a Jew, but who is against Israel is either not a Jew, or he added: They might be a communist.

As he continued to say that none of us who were outside protesting, or the woman who had just been removed from the synagogue, that none of us are Jews, my friend, Amanda stood up and said: We are Jews — and she was describing why, as Jews, it’s important for us to oppose Dershowitz’s Hasbara and propaganda. And at that point, people in the synagogue started attacking her and started punching her and pushing her to the ground. The police dragged her out and detained her. I was the third person who was supposed to disrupt, and I have to admit, I felt that sense of fear; what am I going to do? You know, I just watched my friend be tackled to the ground by the people around her — people who are there at a synagogue supposedly to learn, but in fact, all they wanted was to hear stories that confirmed their beliefs, and when they heard someone say something that contradicted those beliefs, they reacted violently.

But about 10 minutes later, I did find the right opportunity to speak as Dershowitz was talking about how important it will be for the U.S. to go to war with Iran. At that moment, I said: Shame on this synagogue for inviting this warmonger this genocide denier. The police rushed into the row — I was several seats in so they rushed in on both sides — and dragged me out, handcuffed me and dragged me out of the synagogue. I’ve never been dragged while handcuffed. I don’t even remember the experience, but the video is kind of a weird dissociative experience to watch. We did have two comrades who were also inside videotaping, so we got the recording, and were able to show what we had done.

Again, the point here was not to make anyone unhappy, was not to create a disruption for disruption’s sake, but specifically to demonstrate and make visible that the Jewish community is not united in support of Israel and in support of someone like Alan Dershowitz. I feel like it was very successful to do that, because none of us had broken the law. We had our legal observer there who spoke with the police and reminded them that we had bought tickets, and we were there within our rights to be part of the event. And so we were fortunately, just no-trespassed from the synagogue. And believe me, I have no intention of ever going back there.

Sam Goldman 19:10

Thank you for sharing that with us, which must have been a scary experience. I think that even if the people in that room weren’t ready for it, there shouldn’t be a moment of peace during this time where you can just spew horrific levels of hate and justification for ethnic cleansing and not be disrupted. More of that is obviously needed. We have to do things that we’re not comfortable with, because this is a very uncomfortable situation.

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 19:43

I’ll just add that one thing that made me very satisfied was that in his remarks, Dershowitz said that he’s been canceled by Jewish community after Jewish community, that he is disinvited from synagogues, and he complained for quite a while about how marginal He has become even within the Jewish community. Even though we know that the polls show a disturbing amount of support among the Jewish community for the genocide, nonetheless, Dershowitz is finding himself marginalized. So it was satisfying to know that we could contribute to that marginalization and to continue asserting that the Jewish community does not welcome someone whose morals and whose actions are as horrific as Dershowitz.

Sam Goldman 20:26

Thanks for adding that. I wanted to talk a little bit about what’s happening at your university, that you’re a professor at, the Florida Atlantic University [FAU]. Towards the end of January this year, you resigned as director of the Center for Women Gender and Sexuality Studies at FAU. In a Truth Out piece that you had written about this decision, you wrote: “I have chosen to resign from the directorship in order to speak out about what I have experienced and to add my experience to the hundreds of stories of academics and cultural workers who are being targeted in order to silence criticism of the State of Israel amid its genocidal campaign.” I wanted you to share with us what’s happening at FAU and more on why you resigned from your position there.

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 21:23

Thank you. This question of criticism of Israel has been a red line, a third rail, within academia and within other professional spaces for a very long time. Making criticism of Israel impossible is one of the techniques that the State of Israel uses to preserve its power, and they’re proud of that. They talk about the work they do to create that sense of intimidation and fear. So, as a professor at Florida Atlantic University, I always knew that it was something that I needed to be thoughtful about — how I spoke as an anti-Zionist Jew. I’m a member of Tzedek Chicago, which is the first egalitarian anti-Zionist synagogue.

There are many anti-Zionist Jewish congregations, but most of those are Orthodox or ultra orthodox, and we are not. Given my commitment to anti Zionism, I was always very aware that this was a risky topic and could be something that could bring me into conflict with my institution. There were occasions where that became a moment of friction. Even in September, when students invited me to be the faculty advisor for Students for Justice in Palestine, I had an administrator tell me that that was going to ruin the entire year and asked me why I couldn’t support the students or encouraged the students to be part of a less radical organization.

So, I knew that there was this pressure to silence criticism and Israel. But then experiencing what happened after October 7th was incredibly discouraging, because I had hoped that I had built relationships of trust at my institution — relationships with people who understood that I am someone who’s devoted to justice and who is committed to the well being of my community. Instead, as soon as I had been arrested on October 17, I became the subject of what seemed to be investigations. I was questioned — questions specifically over and over about anti-Zionism, and asked to defend how it is not antisemitic. I want to be clear that I am someone who wears a kippah all the time. I wear tzitzit. I am an observant Jew who davens [traditionally recites jewish prayer] every morning, who participates in services. I even put that into my outside activities report, because we were told to report any activity that takes up more than ten hours of our week. I am an observant Jew, so that does absorb a significant amount of my time.

Even though I am clearly not an antisemite, I was told over and over, not just that I might be perceived as such, which of course I am aware, but I was asked to defend myself and to defend my religious beliefs. I learned that this came from pressure from donors who were threatening the center that I directed; the Center for Women, Gender and Sexuality Studies. This was particularly heartbreaking because we’re at a moment in Florida, where a center like that has to be defended, and I have been working so hard to defend it from legislative attacks and from administration’s overreach. Throughout Florida. university administrators have been very quick to shut down programs that they think DeSantis and his Republicans might not like, whether or not those programs are at all in violation of the text of the law.

So, under these circumstances, I was finding that my energy was being absorbed in responding to information requests, documenting my every activity, proving that I hadn’t done anything wrong with scholarship funds with other aspects of my job, and, again, responding to these questions about my faith, and also responding to questions like: Are you going to be speaking to the press again? Are you going to be at another protest again? Questions that really should not be asked, because even though I am an employee of the university, I was doing this activism on my own time as an individual citizen. I even used Nikki Morse for most of my activism. And I use Nicole Morse professionally because I knew it was important to create a distinction between the speech that I do as an individual and my official speech as a representative of the university.

Months of this went on and went on. I found myself wondering whether I should resign, but I didn’t want to because I was being pressured to resign, and there was that part of me that said, No, I want to stay I want to protect the center, and I also want to stand on the principle that I should be able to be a leader and also to be publicly anti-Zionist. Eventually, though, it became clear that the investigations of me were not going to stop. I was told that what happened to Claudine Gay might happen to me, meaning in other words, that some pretextural reason would be developed to take me down. And I could no longer be effective at defending the center, at defending LGBTQ studies, LGBTQ students, women’s studies, feminist studies, because I was seen as someone who was associated with people’s ideas of Hamas terrorism — I had to show that I had condemned Hamas.

These are the kinds of things that made me realize that the best thing for me personally, and the best thing for the center was for me to step down. And once I stepped down, I could talk about what had happened. And that also allows the center to go on under new leadership, and allows me to put my energy where I feel that I’m called by my sense of justice, by my faith, etc. So that’s the broad story of what happened. And as this was going on, for me, of course, this is what is happening in industry after industry, in, especially, campus after campus, because the crackdown on free speech about Palestine on campus is incredibly, incredibly strong.

I think that tells us that there is something very important in professors and students speaking out. They wouldn’t try to repress us this viciously if there weren’t a power in what we have to say, and in the fact that these statements that these criticisms of Israel are coming from people who are engaged in the practice of research, scholarship and teaching. If you study an issue, as I did in my twenties, when I realized that many of my friends in the prison abolition movement were in solidarity with Palestine, and I asked myself as a Zionist: How could they believe this? When you study an issue, and you learn about it and that leads you to a position that’s informed by the facts, that is an incredibly strong place to speak from and to act from. So the fact that the repression is focused on spaces of learning, on spaces of study, tells us that the propaganda is starting to fall apart, and that there is a real fear that people will be learning, teaching and telling the truth.

Sam Goldman 28:42

The last part that you just said, I think is incredibly essential for us understanding what the stakes are in this moment, but also where the vulnerabilities lie, and why, what should be a moment of people purely focusing on: Look at these universities alive and awake, calling an end to genocide leading the way away that we should follow — getting totally swept up into declarations of anti semitism and conflating anti Zionism with anti semitism, tells you that there’s something afoot that they can’t completely control. That’s informative for all of us, to look at it from both sides, and to not stay satisfied with the way that it is right now.

I wanted to just personally say that I am so sorry that this is the situation, that this is the the state of academia that you had to make that choice. That should not happen, it should not be a question, and we’ve got work to do on our hands. I also wanted to just underscore that this wasn’t a one time event that you endured, and then said: Okay, I’m gonna I’m just gonna give up. This was really a protracted campaign against you. I was wondering if there was any lesson from that experience, that you want to share any advice for people who might be in similar positions, or people who see similar situations unfolding?

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 30:21

I think that the experience, which was very painful, I mean, three months of this dragged out experience of investigation, pressure campaign, and just the fear and unknown quantities of what will happen to me, what will this turn into, was very difficult. I will also acknowledge that in many ways, I was very privileged, because as a Jew, there are more opportunities to speak out and to take these risks. And I do think that this is a place where I would encourage fellow Jews to really lean into the opportunity we have to speak in ways that other people cannot. If I had been Arab, Muslim, Palestinian, I’m sure I would have been fired. With that said, I think the thing that was most important to me was to seek out as much support as possible.

These experiences are very isolating, and I probably didn’t seek out as much support as I could have. But I spoke with people in my union, I spoke with friends and colleagues, and that left me feeling less alone. One of the things that happened was a sense of kind of rumors that people had been questioned about me. And again, it produces this feeling that you’re completely isolated, that you’re a pariah, that no one wants to be associated with you, because you’re somehow toxic. And so the more that I made sure that I was connecting to people who could support me, the better.

The other thing that was really important for me was to document things continuously. The messaging that you just don’t understand, or are making too big a deal of something, that is very strong and it’s one of the techniques that institutions use to silence people. Personally, for me, I did not feel that this was something I wanted to pursue through legal avenues, but I still spoke with lawyers and got information, and for those people who are in situations like this, who want legal support, Palestine Legal is doing incredible work. I did document my experience with them to ensure that they could add it to their statistics, even though I was not seeking support from them.

Sam Goldman 32:23

You wrote, and in this conversation, you spoke of a landscape of censoring and silencing. I was wondering if you wanted to share anything more about this wider wave of suppression and blacklisting? And what people need to know about this?

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 32:41

I think the biggest thing I want to voice is that one of the ways that censorship works is through our fear and through the chilling effect of laws that might not actually even be able to be enforced. I bring that up because we’ve seen, of course, SJP [Students for Justice in Palestine] at Columbia get disbanded along with Jewish Voice for Peace. We’ve seen student groups get punished, we’ve seen individual students and faculty face consequences for their speech. So it’s not that the censoring and silencing is not real. It’s very real, but at the same time, the threat of it is used to silence people even before they’ve said what they want to say.

For me, I feel this particularly passionately as a gender queer educator who teaches gender studies in Florida. What I’ve seen in Florida lately is so much pre-emptive compliance with initiatives from the state that are not backed up by the force of law. The Lavender Languages Institute, which is an institute that I’ve run through FAU for four years with a collaborator, Bill Leap, that was shut down just in case the state might not like it, because it addresses queer research topics. I want to emphasize the in this landscape of censoring and censorship, the chilling effect of these laws is very powerful, and the chilling effect of norms, policies and threats that make people afraid to speak out, that is also very powerful.

Sometimes it is more powerful than the actual consequences that exist. I did choose to resign, I was not fired. I have had the opportunity to speak out and to keep speaking up, even though it was very hard. So I don’t want to at all the little the difficulty of speaking up, but I also want to encourage everyone to not allow the censorship to have us do its work for it; to not let the threat of laws that have no basis in the Constitution shut us down. We see Congress passing laws that define criticism of Israel as anti semitism. That should not keep us from criticizing Israel.

Sam Goldman 34:52

As the former director of the Center for Women, Gender and Sexuality Studies, I was wondering if you could talk some about how Israel has used women’s rights and LGBTQ rights as a cover for their program of ethnic cleansing? And what kind of conversations are happening amongst people in your field at this moment?

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 35:14

It’s such an important question. This is something that came up in a number of meetings with administrators where I tried to explain that I was directing a center that is professionally affiliated with the National Women’s Studies Association, which has voted in favor of BDS [Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement to end Israel’s oppression of Palestinians], which is strongly supportive of Palestinian Liberation. The field itself recognizes that Palestinian Liberation is a feminist issue, is an issue of reproductive justice, is an issue that is related to LGBTQ rights.

For many people, I think that is very surprising, because we hear the propaganda that Muslims are homophobic, and also the propaganda that all Palestinians are Muslims, which is not true, of course. We are inundated with this idea that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and that Israel is the only place where LGBTQ people are safe. The way that these ideas of so called progressive Israeli policies on gender are weaponized, is truly horrifying, and certainly something that Women’s Gender and Sexuality Studies has been interrogating, and interrogating actively.

This is not to say that there aren’t challenges that need to be addressed within any society. We have plenty of homophobia and transphobia here in the U.S. Nex Benedict was beaten to death in Oklahoma*, queer people and trans people are not safe because of imperialism. Imperialism is a threat to us all, everywhere. What I would just say is that for me, it was particularly telling that I was actively engaged in protecting a center for Women’s Gender and Sexuality Studies, and donors who consistently misgendered me were willing to sacrifice all of that work because I did not support the State of Israel.

It’s hard for me to imagine the mindset that leads someone to believe that support for any nation state is important enough to risk teaching the truth, to risk people’s livelihoods, to risk people’s well being. Certainly I can’t imagine valuing any nation state enough to want to see it conduct genocide, and to support it conducting genocide. I want to be also very clear that in anything that I have said about Israel today, I would say the same about the U.S., which is fully complicit in this genocide. From all of that perspective, Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies knows that imperialism is gender and sexual violence. I think it’s really important to always critique the gender and sexual violence of the imperialist project.

Sam Goldman 37:52

I want to thank you so much, Nikki, for coming on and sharing your experience, your perspective, and your time with us. If there’s anything else that you want to say, or if there’s a resource that you wanted to tell people about or anything, here’s your moment.

Dr. Erin Nicole Morse 38:13

Thank you so much for having me. I would just encourage folks to check out Jewish Voice for Peace. Jews and allies are welcome to join in those actions and to find ways to tap into your own community. And if you are already involved in your own community organizing for Palestine, to ask yourself what can I do today? What is my role today to stop this genocide, to work for a ceasefire, and eventually to the end of the occupation and a free Palestine?

Sam Goldman 38:41

Now, my interview with Lela Tolajian. Several weeks back, I read this beautiful essay from a college student, and I said: This woman needs to be on the Refuse Fascism podcast. So we linked up, and it’s happening, and I am so glad. Lela Tolajian is a human rights activist and Georgetown University student. She founded the international coalition against modern slavery, served as a civil society delegate to the 2023 United Nations Business and Human Rights Treaty Negotiations. Welcome, Lela. Thanks for coming on.

Lela Tolajian 39:18

Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Sam Goldman 39:22

Like I just mentioned, you recently penned an op ed titled “We Jewish Students Must Not Be Silent on the Genocide in Gaza.” I was hoping that you can tell listeners a little bit more about why you have decided to use your voice, and why you feel it is essential that other Jewish students join you in using their voice as well.

Lela Tolajian 39:45

Yeah, thank you so much. I think just first and foremost as a human being, what is happening in Gaza is horrific, and no one should be looking away. Second of all, I think living in the United States there’s an extra urgency to speak out on this because it is our tax dollars, it’s our government that is giving money to the State of Israel; that’s funding this. So just by living in the United States and paying tax dollars, we are complicit.

Also, as Jewish students, because the state of Israel claims to speak for all Jewish people, because a lot of Zionist institutions claim to represent all Jewish people, I think we have a responsibility to say: No, this goes against everything that Judaism stands for. Judaism commands us to stand for the sanctity of human life, to oppose any form of unjust violence, of oppression, thus, to oppose, you know, what the state of Israel is doing to Palestinians.

Sam Goldman 40:35

Jewish voices against genocide and against Zionism are being silenced and sidelined from many different angles, including being totally mischaracterized, like Jonathan Glazer speech was at the Oscars. I’m not sure if you watched, but he gave this speech, and what he was trying to do in his acceptance speech for Zone of Interest is, he’s saying he refutes his Jewishness being used to justify occupation — not that he refuted his Jewishness — but all of that being silenced. Then it becomes acute in a different way at the universities, and broadly, what’s happening when people speak out against genocide, and against Zionism. But then there’s also what is happening on the campuses and with students, and I just wanted you to share what you’ve been seeing or experiencing or noticing, as a student activist.

Lela Tolajian 41:36

First and foremost, I just want to emphasize the people facing the brunt of the on campus targeting and harassment are Arab and Muslim students. There are many students who have been harassed, assaulted, shouted at for just wearing a hijab, or just because of how they look, period. I think in these spaces, yes, anyone who like goes to protest is involved in this organizing work is at risk, but I definitely have a level of privilege in these spaces, so I’m really not facing the brunt of what’s happening on campuses.

I’ve had people who I know at other universities who’ve been threatened with disciplinary hearings with expulsions. We see a lot of SJPs (Students for Justice in Palestine), that organization being banned across campuses, and also universities just not doing a good job to make things safe for Palestinians, especially, but also other Arab and Muslim students. For example, at Georgetown University, the university brought in, through campus ministries, Israeli soldiers to speak on campus, pretty recently. I have peers, I have friends, who have family members back in Gaza who have been killed, and I can’t imagine anything as a student more dehumanizing than to have these soldiers be brought to your campus and be given a platform to speak, after they’ve been involved in the death of your family members. I remember, we did a protest against this and then some of us went into the event to protest inside of the event — just the way they were weaponizing antisemitism and this self victimization, when they are literally committing horrific atrocities.

We sat through like 45 minutes before we left — it was one of the most disgusting things I’ve had to sit through in my entire life. I can’t even get into it. They were like: Oh, we felt like we were liberating a concentration camp when we went into Gaza, the kids were running up to us thanking us. It was beyond infuriating to hear this. And it was put on by campus ministries, by my university that I’m getting myself into debt to attend. We were in the back with kefiyehs. We had our hands painted red. We had signs held up like: These children in Gaza were martyred; War criminals off campus. The people putting on the event, they start looking at us and talking about anti semitism, and they’re like these people who came to protest this event, they just want to kill Jewish people, dah dah dah dah dah.

Meanwhile, I’m Jewish, most people in this protest are Jewish. Before I left, I stood up and I shouted something along the lines of like: My great grandmother lost her entire family in the Holocaust. I know a genocide when I see one. You’re killing innocent civilians — something like that, and I get kicked out, of course. But that just goes to show like the kind of environment that these universities are fostering, and then at the same time, my university and many other universities have investments in Amazon, Alphabet; corporations that are complicit in this ongoing violence that we’re seeing. So that’s also kind of how they are kind of supporting the horrific war crimes we’re seeing unfold.

Sam Goldman 44:38

At your campus or at other campuses that you are aware of, when people take that action to speak out, which is what — what universities should be places of — that should be a place where people are challenging wars and the things that are intolerable — that should be what universities pulse width, and with people just questioning things that are so entrenched. The idea that a whole people can be dehumanized, being not even challenged at all, the university should be the one place if there’s any place, where people are challenging it. You talked about SJP, and some individuals that you know, especially Palestinian students, that repression that they faced — if there’s anything else that you want people to understand about what life is like, trying to speak out on campuses right now, for what’s happening in Gaza?

Lela Tolajian 45:35

It feels very much free speech for some or free speech when the speech is not so challenging. But it’s also like: Whose lives and whose safety and whose comfort matters? And overwhelmingly, it’s the safety of white college students, as opposed to individuals in other countries, individuals in Southwest Asia, North Africa. So, when we were having this protest for the event with members of the Israeli military — I have been saying ‘IOF’ instead of ‘IDF’ [offense instead of defense], because I feel like at the point where you’re targeting children, you have no right to the term ‘\”self defense.”

These Israeli occupation forces were being brought to campus and Jewish Voice for Peace and Students for Justice in Palestine posted that there was going to be a protest against this, and we received emails basically saying that this speech makes students feel unsafe; that opposing, speaking out against what’s happening, speaking out against Israel, make students feel unsafe. That was just so insane for me to hear, because you want to talk about who is unsafe right now, the people who are unsafe are the people in Gaza who have no food, the infrastructure completely destroyed, no hospitals, lost their entire family members. They’re being bombed. They’re literally facing a genocide, and you want to talk about who’s unsafe right now? Because it’s not the students on college campuses who feel uncomfortable when people talk about Palestine. That’s not who is unsafe right now.

The people in Gaza are the people who are unsafe, and the fact that you can value the comfort or the emotional state of wealthy college students at a prestigious university, I guess, in the United States, over the actual lives of people who are dealing with this violence. I think it’s extremely upsetting, and it’s extremely dehumanizing. At least if you want to talk about how students feel on campus, what about the Palestinian students on campus who have had to go through having their family members killed, having their family members not knowing if they’re safe, not knowing if they’re okay, and then you’re bringing members of the Israeli military onto campus. Are they supposed to feel safe? It’s completely ridiculous. It’s disgusting.

Sam Goldman 47:43

There’s the individuals who have been silenced, and then there’s something that happens to the culture on these campuses when people get either disciplinary action or protesting space repression, or they’re told that they’re making people feel unsafe. What do you see happening to the culture on your campus? Or if you feel comfortable speaking about other campuses that you know of as well?

You look at these outpourings across the globe [LT: mmhmm], and we’ve never seen this in my lifetime, and I’ve spoken to people older, and they’ve never seen this in their lifetime either. Now, to be real, we’ve also not seen this level of devastation, and so rapidly in Gaza. And still, I think that there is a change, and I think part of it, you mentioned earlier, is you can’t deny this. There’s no denying the starving children. There’s no denying that cities don’t exist anymore. There’s no denying these things.

Lela Tolajian 48:12

Yeah, what I’ve seen at Georgetown, and I’ve heard from friends on different campuses, it just adds to the dehumanization of Palestinians. I think that’s just the biggest thing that speaking out… Georgetown University, it’s a Jesuit university, and our whole thing is: people for others, educating the whole person, social justice driven values, but the University has made it clear that it only applies to certain people when they’re not protecting Palestinian students on and off campus. I think it’s really interesting, because after Russia invaded Ukraine, everyone was standing with Ukraine, the University was really good about protecting Ukrainian students on campus.

But when it’s happening to Palestine, we do not see any of that. I think every university in Gaza has been destroyed. If that happened to any other country — if every single university in France was destroyed, if every single University in England was destroyed, if professors and academics and students were being targeted, in pretty much any other country, every single university would be up in arms over this. But universities across the world are silent when it’s happening in Palestine. And I also think the conflation of Judaism and Zionism itself is anti semitic, because you’re saying that this horrific violence is done in the name of Jewish people, and you’re associating Jewish people with that, which makes Jewish people less safe.

I always feel the conflation of Judaism and Zionism harms both Jews and Palestinians, which is just another reason why it’s so, so important to condemn and speak out against that conflation. And it’s also just not accurate because as long as Zionism has existed, there has been thriving, diverse Jewish opposition to it, across countries, across cultures. There have always been Jewish people standing firmly against Zionism. It’s also extremely ahistorical to say Judaism and Zionism are the same thing.

Lela Tolajian 50:47

Like you said, we’ve never seen, basically, a genocide broadcasted instantly to our phones. You can open up pretty much any social media app and see these videos from journalists, and also just from civilians in Gaza, documenting what’s happening. What I’ve seen coming out of Gaza, these videos, I’ve seen the things that will haunt me pretty much for the rest of my life. Children who have starved to death, kids with dismembered body parts, individuals reacting to, like losing their entire families. You scroll through these videos, you watch what’s happening, and then you see videos of IOF soldiers who are doing TikTok dances, and holding up the underwear and lingerie from houses they’ve raided in Gaza after ethnically cleansing entire neighborhoods.

It’s just absolutely mind boggling that you can have this information so readily — it’s so easy to take a few minutes to research what is happening, to listen to the people who are actually being affected by this — and at that point, I don’t understand how you can still stand by what Israel is doing. I’m Armenian and Jewish. I’ve had family members who were killed. My great grandparents, their families were in both genocides. I remember hearing about the Armenian Genocide, like a lot of Western Europe, they just didn’t know it was happening.

If we had phones or social media back when other genocides have happened throughout history, it could be so much easier to communicate this, it wouldn’t have happened. But that’s not why. It’s because when you dehumanize an entire group and entire population, this is how genocide functions. This is how every single genocide throughout history has been enabled, because you reduce an entire group of people to not being human, to not being worthy of protecting, of care, of solidarity. Genocides are not really done by the people who are actually doing them, they’re done more by the people who sit back and allow this to happen.

Sam Goldman 52:42

In your essay you had written “As Jewish students, we must refuse to allow our identity to be corrupted, to justify crimes against humanity. We must refuse to sit silently while our tax dollars and tuition payments fund genocide in our name, knowing that never again means never again for everyone.” I’m wondering what should students be doing right now for never again, for anyone anywhere to mean something.

Lela Tolajian 53:11

Two things. The first is not to look away from what’s happening. And the second is to get organized. I think people tend to have a lot of like, “burnout” in activist and organizing spaces — they’ll care about an issue like as long as they see it on Instagram stories or in their newsfeed, and then they’ll stop caring about it. The reason we’ve been seeing less and less information and videos and stories coming out of Gaza is not because it’s not happening anymore, it’s because more journalists are being killed.

So I just want to say to any young people, to any students listening: Don’t let a lack of continued information, a lack of these videos, a lack of constantly seeing at the forefront of your social media pages, at the forefront of your news apps, wherever you get your information from, do not let that stop you. Keep Gaza in your minds, keep researching about what’s happening. Keep listening to the people who still are alive, who are still telling you stories, and don’t just let it break your heart, let it actually motivate you to get involved and to get organized. There’s a place in this movement for everyone. If you’re a writer, reach out to like student publications and see if you can like write an article about this. If you’re an artist, if you’re good at public speaking, whatever, there’s a place for everyone.

So, I think keep showing up and keep being involved and keep listening to the Palestinians who are on the ground, who are at the forefront of this movement. If you don’t follow Palestinian Youth Movement on social media, definitely do that. They’re doing incredible organizing work. They’re always having protests. Go to those protests, go to other protests. Just stay involved and stay engaged and don’t lose hope and don’t lose focus.

Sam Goldman 54:49

Is there anything that you wanted to say that didn’t come up already in our conversation?

Lela Tolajian 54:55

I think just emphasizing that we talked about the safety on college campuses. It definitely is scary for some people to speak out, there definitely are students who are being targeted, who are facing disciplinary action, who are facing expulsion, people who’ve lost jobs, but no consequence you could ever have for speaking out could even be the smallest fraction of what people on the ground in Gaza are facing. I think that’s something really, really important to keep in perspective if you are scared to be speaking out about this. But also remembering it’s the Palestinian organizers both inside and outside of Palestine who are, and have always been at the forefront of this struggle.

Sam Goldman 55:35

If people want to learn more about your activism or about you, do we want to direct people it’s a social media thing or anything?

Lela Tolajian 55:50

It just my name on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok. I like just started using TikTok, I’m not very good at it, but it’s there it exists.

Sam Goldman 55:59

Awesome. I want to thank you so much for coming on and talking with me and sharing with all of us that are listening, your experience and perspective and insights. So glad that your voice is loud and speaking on campus, and we look forward to hearing more from you.

Lela Tplajian 56:22

Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Sam Goldman 56:25

As I said last week, a lot can happen. A lot is happening and will happen over the next eight months, including events so wild, we could even envision a scenario in which the election doesn’t happen. Some people who understand the danger of Trumpism/fascism have translated that understanding into the act of browbeating those who are standing on principle, and protesting and calling for an end to the unchecked U.S. support and arming of Israel — as if the danger of fascism is going to be solved by people of conscience silencing themselves about a crime against humanity.

But as I mentioned earlier, the events of the past week show that institutions will not self correct. The justice that we seek will not be delivered if we do not pursue it. I’m so glad to be with you on the journey pursuing that justice and building community and resources for anyone who wants to see a future free of this fascist threat. If we have to be in this fight, I am so honored to be standing shoulder to shoulder with you.

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