Choices: A Post-Roe Abortion Rights Manifesto

Choices: A Post-Roe Abortion Rights Manifesto

Refuse Fascism Episode 197

Sun, Apr 14, 2024 10:05AM • 51:53

Merle Hoffman 00:00

Abortion is the vehicle with which women can access their ability to choose, i.e., their humanity. You have to have the ability to terminate a pregnancy and to decide when and whether or not you want to mother. We have to realize we’re in this almost dystopian fantasy. People have to get ready to stand up for their principles, to understand that if they don’t, that steamroller is gonna steamroll right over you. Without that resistance, without action, nothing’s gonna happen. It’s not enough just vote in a presidential election. We have to rise up with fire of our passion and our resistance. So that’s what we have to do.

Sam Goldman 01:03

Welcome to Episode 197 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States.

Right up front, what do we mean when we talk about fascism? We’re talking about a qualitative change in how society is governed. Fascism foments and relies on xenophobic nationalism, racism, misogyny, and the aggressive reinstitution of oppressive “traditional values.” Fascist mobs and threats of violence are unleashed to build the movement and consolidate power. And here’s what’s crucial. Once in power, fascism essentially eliminates traditional democratic rights.

We want to thank everyone who rates and reviews the show, like NYT review, who reviewed us on Apple podcast titled the review Spectacular, gave us five stars, thank you very much, and wrote “Thank you for educating us, thank you for your effective activism. This is a powerful podcast.” Go be like them, help reach more people during a year when refusing fascism is needed more than ever. After you listen to this episode, be sure to share it with others. Click the Share button in your app to send this episode to a friend. Or let the world know why you listen by rating and reviewing on Apple podcasts, or your listening platform of choice.

Today we’re sharing a conversation I had April 12 with Merle Hoffman. She’s someone listeners of the show are familiar with. And if you’re not, Merle is a powerhouse! She helped establish one of the nation’s first abortion clinics, co founded the National Abortion Federation, led tens of thousands into the streets against the overturning of Roe v. Wade, and now has written Choices, A Post-Roe Abortion Rights Manifesto.

But first, a message to all our lovely, lovely patrons and sustainers. We’re getting together on Sunday, April 28, at 5pm for a virtual book club chat to discuss Prophet Song by Paul Lynch. And we want you there too! Prophet Song is a terrifying and timely work, detailing the slow and then not, ascent of modern day fascism. We’ll dive into the way it holds up the mirror to what we confront in real life. Lessons we’re all carrying with us after reading and debate the political character of the fascist project presented in the book and much more. So if you want to join us, which I hope you do, head over to our Patreon page and register for the Zoom. And if you’re not a patron yet, no worries, you can fix that today by signing up at patreon.com/refusefascism.

Also, I gotta give a heads up to those who appreciate the content but have issues with my lady voice. Get ready because I got a hellish reel in this episode. Okay with that business out of the way. Here is my interview with Merle. It’s April and in this post-Roe hellscape it’s raining new and horrific abortion bans, or as Donald Trump put it,

Donald Trump 04:22

Now the states are working their way through it. And you go you’re having some very, very beautiful harmony to be honest with you.

Sam Goldman 04:30

The Florida Supreme Court, which allowed the enactment of a six week near total abortion ban, making it illegal to help someone get an abortion, In just a few weeks, anyone who, “actively participates,” could be charged with a felony. When this goes into effect, it will demolish abortion access for all of the South. For those wondering exactly where they want to throw women back to, we know it’s at least as far back as 1864, with the Arizona Supreme Court ruling a 160 year-old territorial abortion ban, which bans from the moment of conception, including rape and incest is enforceable, goes into effect in mere weeks.

The law orders prosecution for “A person who provides, supplies or administers to a pregnant woman or procures such woman to take any medicine, drugs or substance or uses or employs any instrument or other means whatever, with intent thereby to procure the miscarriage.”Providers who help patients access abortion care could face incarceration for up to five years. State Republicans repeatedly blocked efforts this week to introduce measures to repeal the law. In Arizona, we must note that a 15 week ban has been in effect since December 2022.

The Tennessee Senate has passed a travel ban for minors to criminalize helping a teen obtain an abortion out of state, making it illegal to even provide them with any information about obtaining an abortion or abortion care. The bill establishes that those convicted of breaking the law would be charged with a Class A misdemeanor, which carries a one year imprisonment sentence. A version of this bill in the State House treats this as a Class C felony, which can carry up to a 15 year prison sentence and up to $10,000 in fines.

Gotta note as well, that a day after the Tennessee senate did their “abortion trafficking ban,” they approved a measure that threatens any adult in Tennessee who “recruits, harbors or transports a minor for the purpose of accessing gender affirming care with a Class C felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison.” And, the Supreme Court that brought you the end of Roe v Wade will hear this month a dispute over whether states can decline to abide by the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act, ATLA, a federal law that requires providing stabilizing care for emergency room patients, including, you got it, abortion care, even if that care goes against a state’s own narrower abortion rules.

To discuss all of this and much more. I am so pleased to be welcoming back on the show Merle Hoffmann. Merle has been at the forefront of the reproductive freedom movement since the 1970s. Three years before the Supreme Court legalized abortion through Roe v Wade, she helped to establish one of the United States’ first abortion centers in Flushing, Queens, and later went on to found Choices, one of the nation’s largest and most comprehensive Women’s Medical facilities.

For the last five decades, Merle has been a steadfast warrior and fierce advocate for uncompromising abortion rights, she co founded Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights, which led tens of thousands into the streets against the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Now, amidst the aftermath of the Dobbs decision, Merle has carefully compiled her decades of analysis, research and experience into Choices, a Post-Roe Abortion Rights Manifesto. It sheds light on not only the catastrophic repercussions of overturning Roe, but what we must do moving forward to ensure the safety and legality of abortion nationally. So again, welcome Merle, congratulations on this book. And thanks for coming on.

Merle Hoffman 08:32

Thank you. I’m very glad to be with you on the podcast. We were together in marches, meetings and strategy sessions on big soapboxes doing passionate speeches. So it’s good to be with you, very good to be with you again.

Sam Goldman 08:48

Likewise. From where you sit, having the decades of experience behind you and the closeness that you have with the people that you serve, I’m wondering what’s standing out to you most right now about the abortion landscape post Dobbs with the work that you do, providing abortion care in New York City? How are the bans across the country affecting your practice? And what should we learn?

Merle Hoffman 09:12

There’s multiple nuances and layers to that question. How and why to react after 53 years of being in this movement. It’s something that I foresaw the overturn of Roe, something that I knew in a sense was coming but as I wrote, and as we’ve discussed, often, you know, you can predict and, and project, but it’s very hard to really be able to think about or empathize with exactly what it means when more than half of the country has lost the fundamental human and civil right. It’s breathtaking in its boldness, fierceness and cruelty. It’s a dystopian kind of thinking.

You It’s almost like a one-upsmanship. Okay, we’re going to ban after six weeks. And then another state says, well, we’re not only going to ban, we’re going to make sure that they can’t even give information about an abortion. And then the next one goes even further and further, then the pro choice movement in this sense, which has become the Democratic Party, because it’s now infused with electoral politics. And it’s really important to separate that. But the pro choice movement, so to speak, is in a situation of consistently being defensive. And yes, they’re going to say, Oh, well, yes, Arizona will be able to have a referendum, and then we can get a change.

But this strategy is ultimately a losing strategy and a strategy that will never reach what we truly need, which is legal abortion, on demand without borders, and that vision. And that goal is never articulated in the sense that this is what we’re working for. And how do I think and feel, I think, what comes to me as not so much an activist but as a provider, which catalyzes my activism, is the cruelty is what happens to these women. And that’s what motivated me, catalyze me, inspired me. And I think about these enormous difficulties of lives that don’t have, in a sense as much autonomy even as they could and they should.

And all the young women and people who are thrust into a very difficult, torturous world. I mean, these kids come up from other states, to Choices, and a lot of them have never been on a plane before. They’ve never been to New York. All of a sudden, you know, a 14 or 15 year old, finds out that they’re pregnant, and oh, my God, what do I do, and if they’re fortunate, they have access to some kind of information that gets them to some kind of group or fundraising, feminist nonprofit that’s funding this, and they get some money. That’s not easy, because it sometimes takes three or four different funding agencies to get enough for the tickets and the travel on the staying over.

So they finally get here, and they come out and they’re in New York City. And they come into Choices. And it’s like culture shock on multiple levels. I see Choices very often as an oasis, in this desert of lack of maternal and women’s health for half the country. So we take care of them and they go back out there, they can’t get follow up care, because that’s illegal where they are. Of course, we have our counselors who call and check on them. I wouldn’t doubt whether the phones now aside from RICO, is going to start to be monitored. So we check on them. We try to follow up in some way. But they’re really lost to that system. And then the stories of the women who were forced to carry dead fetuses or almost dead fetuses and give birth to them, and hold them for two hours as they die in their arms.

You know, the creativity of that cruelty? And that’s what enrages you and enrages me on level of the political is the lack of political action, that I don’t see out there. And that really, enrages me. That’s the other part of it. And what’s really interesting is for this book I’ve gone to, and I’m traveling to different states and different schools. And let’s start with Tennessee, right? I was in Nashville, I was in Vanderbilt, I get there. And then I speak to a new senator, a woman a Democrat, and she’s telling me about this, it’s called Baby Olivia. It’s a three minute film that follows a little fetus that they’ve called Olivia, they make her into a comic character. And you know, this develops and you know, she’s in mommy’s stomach and growing and and what they’re trying to do, and I believe they passed it, Samantha, is to require mandate that this film be played in every school, from I think it’s junior high to high school or even earlier. They’re just going you know, as far as they can. The stop signs are not there. And it’s up to each of us to do something about it.

Sam Goldman 14:37

Every time we speak, I become very emotional. And I think that part of it is the rareness of which our humanity as women is uttered, the sheer refusal to accept anything less. That is just frighteningly rare right now, whenever I hear you speak with such clarity on what we deserve every time, that is what breaks me because we don’t have that. We are trained to accept each gut punch and to swallow our rage and be nice women. I’m so glad that you are going with your book all over to speak to people because you may be the only person that they’ve heard that challenges this in this way. And what a responsibility, obviously, but also, what a precious opportunity that is. If there was anything else from your experience going out with the book that you want to share, I’d love to hear it.

Merle Hoffman 15:38

I went to Harvard and I spoke to a Gender Studies Group. And then I spoke to the law school at Harvard. Then I was at Smith. I also spoke to their law school and then a regular Gender Cultural Studies Department. I was at Vanderbilt, I went to Greeley in New York, which is an all girls school, upper east side, only accepts that highest level of academic performance in it. Only one person knew what the Hyde Amendment was. And it was a 17 year old high school girl and really, nobody knew what the Hyde Amendment was.

I was at Rutgers with Roxane Gay the other day, nobody knew what the Hyde Amendment was, there was a absolute ignorance of history, because there’s this thing called presentism, or the urgency of now, I’m living now. And what do you mean, it happened yesterday? There’s an ignorance of history, which means there’s an ignorance of context and being able to put things into what this means. There was a basic, really lack of knowledge of the whole situation. I mean, they were there, they were concerned, they definitely felt they had to do something. But they really didn’t know what to do.

You know, it was like, What do I do? Then I discussed the fact of looking in the mirror and understanding, like what you just said, but you described I call outposts in their head, the enemy has outposts in their head, oh, I can’t do this. And, you know, if I had an abortion, I really don’t want to say it, because then I’m stupid, or I forgot to use my birth control, or I’m not a good girl, even with all this feminism, and empowerment, you know, and all of this, because abortion has been taken out from the definition of what it is. Abortion as an act without context, in a sense, but abortion is the vehicle with which women can access their ability to choose, i.e., their humanity.

The opposition says, oh, yeah, in order to be human, in order to be a full person, you have to kill your baby. Well, in a sense, yes, you have to have the ability to terminate a pregnancy, and to decide when and whether or not you want to mother. And without that you cannot be fully a citizen, which is what Ruth Bader Ginsburg addressed when she was discussing this, and what individuals who truly understand what the right to legal safe abortion means. Understand, it is not the abortion itself, but the abortion is the vehicle towards the ability to function as a full human being that has to be really understood.

What else did I find? I found that they were hungry for connection to me, because they expressed what you express the inspiration, and also the fact that here was somebody that was working on this for over a half a century, that I really was committed. That’s something that also what you saw was very modeling for them, that when you really commit yourself to a cause, it’s not something that you put on a pink pussy hat for once in five years, you have to be committed to it on a long term basis.

So all of that is not what the zeitgeist teaches, or what the culture is, you know, Samantha, it’s for immediacy, it’s for clicks, it’s for likes, it’s not for critical thinking. It’s not for going away from the herd, but making sure that you’re with the herd. I had a chance basically afterwards, when everybody was lining up to talk to me a little bit for me when I was signing the books, to really engage with them personally. And now we’re more than five people have already committed to coming to do some internships, at Choices. It’s really important. These are the young people that are going to inherit what we leave.

Sam Goldman 19:39

Thank you for sharing that experience with us. I know I look forward to seeing more of what happens from the rest of your touring with the book. I wanted to return to what we had touched on earlier, which was about these bans in Arizona and Florida. And I was wondering if there’s anything that either you’re hearing from colleagues or others that you’re connected with, on their impact? Or how should listeners understand the gravity of the impact, for instance of this Florida ban?

Merle Hoffman 20:11

It requires a radical sense of empathy. I think every woman in this world has known what it is to have the crushing shock and anxiety if your period is late. I know I have, you know, especially when I was growing out of the 60s, that was very scary, because there was no option to do anything. So you have to imagine what it is. Okay, you missed your period. And then you go for sonogram, you may want to terminate your pregnancy. And it’s six weeks.

First of all, a lot of women don’t even know that they’re pregnant at six weeks. You have to be, yeah, maybe a seven or eight weeks before anything shows up. So you go, but they do the sonogram, and they do the tests. And they found out yes, there are electrical images, there’s a heartbeat, you remember the heartbeat bill?. It’s not really a heartbeat, but it’s electrical impulses that are coming in from this developing fetus. And then can be three or four days over six weeks. And they say, you cannot have an abortion because it’s illegal. Now push that empathy even more, and you’re not tied into women’s health group or anybody that’s helping you.

Perhaps if you tell your parents you might have a real problem, perhaps it’s your father or your stepfather, you may have been kicked out, what do you do? Where do you go? And what do you do. And if you’re fortunate, you’ll be able to perhaps connect with somebody that can get you to travel to another state. But then that goes back to all of the problems that we were talking about before. And then there are some states that are going to make it illegal to travel, to help someone travel. So they go from the consumer, which is the patient, to the provider, which is the physician or any of the clinics and they have these very egregious, either criminal or civil charges against the physicians who may want to reach out and help this woman.

Now the physicians are put in an extremely difficult position, because they can lose not only their license, their practice, but they can be criminally prosecuted for trying to help a patient. And most physicians, they do go into medicine, because they want to heal, they want to help. And it puts the physician in an horrendous position, because they can’t really function as a doctor. What they’ve done is weaponize physicians and make them handmaids of the state. And so many doctors are leaving this state to be able to practice medicine in a more full and logical and non criminalized way. They’re leaving and creating what is known as maternal deserts, which means there’s no providers.

Most providers who do abortions also do other things in the clinics not only provide abortions, but they provide birth control, they provide counseling, if a woman you know is unfortunately in the situation with domestic violence, they’ll counsel her or they’ll refer, all of that is gone now. You know, so they not only decimate the specific medical procedure of abortion, the whole concept of women’s health has been absolutely decimated for our state as a whole concept.

Sam Goldman 23:33

Including maternal health when you do want to have a child, and miscarriage care. When we’re talking about Florida, you look at how many states all around Florida have already implemented these bans. And then I was reading earlier this week about there was the phenomena of rage donations after the fall of Roe, of people being so angry that the right to abortion be ripped away and looking to see what can they do. That was what a lot of people did, was donate. That has long dried up. Funds in Arizona and Florida have said that when it comes to then helping people travel out of state, there isn’t the money there.

Coupled that with, there are instances as happened as far back as SB8, clinics closing even before the ban starts. This is a really hellish landscape. I wanted to shift to a topic that I think people could gain a lot of insight from you on, which is the Supreme Court is going to hear arguments in the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, ATLA which the case is titled Idaho v. the United States. I’m hoping you could tell us a little bit about how the outcome of this case could impact access to reproductive health care, particularly for women facing financial barriers.

Merle Hoffman 24:57

You get into the situation where the case against mifepristone, and that’s a real problem. They’re going after the pill very strongly. And the ATLA is the emergency treatment. And that’s used to try and save women’s lives. But again, they won’t be able to make those decisions, because that’s going to be monitored and criminalized. I don’t want to not discuss what their main goal is. Samantha.

One of the majors aside from making abortion unthinkable across this country, aside from illegal and undoable is they want to make the fetus a constitutional person at the moment of conception. And that means that that little, can hardly see it, sperm and egg, has the imprimatur of God. And it’s the Christian God, obviously, you know, that’s pasted on this little thing, and cannot be discarded if it’s in a test tube and it happens to fall on the ground. I mean, that was the whole IVF business that really shook up a lot of Republicans, you know, a couple of months ago. But even though this IVF business has sort of taken a back stage, I don’t think it’s gone. But they definitely do want to make the fetus a constitutional person.

Maybe 40 years ago, when I first started debating this, I was debating this point, because they were talking about it, then. And we have to realize they are not driven by elections. They were surprised by the forum, Rome was, everybody else. They’re really driven by their ideology and their very powerful beliefs, and this biblical concept of the sacredness of life. But if you say, well, if they think life is sacred, you know, how can they believe in capital punishment? Well, they only believe in the sacredness of innocent life. And the fetus is the ultimate and the innocent object in that sense.

So you have on the one side, creating a world where, you know, the fetus is a constitutional person. And then all of these bans and laws which impact the so-called safe states, no, they do impact that. And yes, in New York, we’re a so-called “safe state,” and there’s laws, we have shield laws for the doctors and shield laws for the clinics. But those can fall. And we discuss this even during the times of Rise Up, that people were coming over to me and saying, Well, Choices is safe, Choices in New York, that’s a safe state. Well, there aren’t any safe states because if these people have their way, abortion will be illegal all over this country.

Sam Goldman 27:46

There was a chant that I think was done in Chicago, I led it in some other places, but it was “Red state, blue state, you can’t, hide the war on women is nationwide.” It’s just true, that they’re not gonna allow this patchwork to stay in place, whatever BS they might spew about states rights, they’re going for it all with this. And we know from what you’ve already said, that people are already having to travel to those blue states, if they can. There’s longer waiting times, and and all of that. But it’s also a morally bankrupt argument, to say, “I’ll be safe in my blue dot,” that’s just completely morally bankrupt.

Merle Hoffman 28:32

That bankruptcy is generic. And it’s generational, in the sense that whenever part of society is challenged with the loss of their rights, or a degree of oppression, and I really define this as that, there are people who will stand up and say No! and Stop! and the majority don’t say anything. No, unfortunately, that’s what’s been going on for a very long time. It really saddens me with all my philosophical, psychological, political understanding of why the fact that it is, and I’m speaking about the lack of activism and rage and marching in the streets, and saying You Will Not! You Will Not!, you know, saddens me to no end.

Sam Goldman 29:17

Even if you know it here in your head, there is no softening that below that. Oh, yeah, we’re just people just going on about our lives. In many ways, the Biden administration is running their reelection campaign on abortion, portraying themselves as a champion for abortion rights, sending Kamala to Arizona immediately after the Supreme Court brought that ban back, even as Biden himself refuses to say the word abortion is personally opposed, has done next to nothing to safeguard the right to abortion and has no clear strategy to enshrine the right.

On one level, the question is just, excuse my language, What the fuck? The using of such levels of suffering for political gain, as if the people who can’t get abortions are just collateral damage to be stepped over on the way to some potential future victory. After these bans go down, you know, the “Wait till November, they’re gonna find out what this cost them!” or the “Alito is gonna get what he asked for.” They’re at the you know “f around and find out” stage of they’re not without the right to vote or whatever, it’s just this prettifying what is just absolutely heinous, this grotesque injustice and getting people to say things like, “Oh yes, bad about Florida and the South losing the right to abortion, but it’s on the ballot, so we’re winning,” or “It’s sad about Arizona, but it’s not going to really be enforced anyway.” And “Now the GOP is going to pay,” and “Voters are going to have a chance to override this ban in November likely with a ballot initiative, more states are putting ballot measures up.”

Merle Hoffman 31:04

I know, I know. But the first thing that I think is important to understand there are no issues, there are only elections. So the issues are used within elections in a way that will benefit the parties. And with Democrats, of course, abortion now has become the big issue that they think they can run on. And potentially we’re not. I always go back. I mean, we have to look at the Democrats and look at their very, very poor history and their reality of their support for reproductive rights.

I always go back to the Hyde Amendment, 1976, when the Republican Congressman Henry Hyde said “If we can’t save all the babies, we’ll save only the babies of the poor,” so he cuts off Medicaid funding, the only help and support that really poor women could have. And the Hyde Amendment, which is a budget appropriation issue, and which is voted on every year, can be stopped every year. But it’s now a long, long time many decades. And the Hyde Amendment is still in effect through Clinton through Obama, and through Biden. And this is very racial, because most of the women who are affected by the Hyde Amendment are black and minority women, are poor women who are on Medicaid, you know, and we have to look at the pro choice movement too, and the whole kind of attitude and philosophy through the Hyde Amendment, through the obstructionist laws that were passed.

You mentioned before the bans and before the fall of Roe and Dobbs and 2014, when we had that freedom bus going down for reproductive rights. I mean, all of these things were going on for the invasions and harassment and the murders of doctors, including my friend, George Tiller, the entire attitude was, we always have Roe, because there was never the kinds of thinking that that could fool that the law actually which protected the right for women to make these decisions could actually fall. When I talk to these since, and what should we learn, that we can’t really depend on the cause, because they’re not the bulwark that we think they were, and you can’t depend on the elected officials?

Yes, they say they’re going to do, but when they’re in office, it seems that their agenda is to stay in office. And that would be a lot of the fact of they’re working across the aisle and keeping their own positions in their own power and their own money coming into their projects. You get a situation that is not responsive to the people because nobody is screaming, “Why is the Hyde Amendment still there? Why haven’t you done anything on this? Why isn’t Roe codified?” They keep talking about it, but they didn’t do it.

So when I speak, and I really I remember standing on the first soapbox on January 22, when we were in Washington, and I said you can’t depend on this, you have to depend on yourself. The people don’t take the responsibility of understanding that no democratic or any kind of society that has the input of people in general of how they want to their lives can exist without the responsibility and knowledge of what that means to be a citizen. And we don’t have that. We just don’t have that. And perhaps this may activate it. I don’t know. I haven’t seen anything yet.

Sam Goldman 34:45

You know, one of the things that I see happening is that as opposed to mobilizing people to plant their bodies in the streets and say, “We’re not going to allow this overturn, we would rather shut all of society down then allow women to be relegated second class citizens,” that wasn’t done by the Democratic Party. And it wasn’t done by their offshoots in what I can only call the Nonprofit Industrial Complex, that’s more beholden to grants or lobbying than it is the people that they are supposedly protecting. But that wasn’t done, what was done was, “We’ll deal with it when it happens,” or whatever. “We’ve got the pill,” and then they go after the pill, “We’ll fund abortion travel,” and then they go after people traveling to get an abortion, or the latest is the ballot initiatives.

The energy, instead of calling people into the streets of Florida, into the streets of Arizona, people are told to put their energy into ballot initiatives as a strategy for securing and protecting abortion rights. And I was wondering, I’ve talked on the show previously about what I see as the insufficiency and damage that such efforts can cause in this current political climate. And I was wondering if there were any thoughts that you wanted to share, as the primary approach?

Merle Hoffman 36:07

We have to deal with the situation on the ground, as it is, and the situation on the ground is at this point in time, and with a conflation of the election also, really, we’ve been pushed into this strategic position of fighting them state by state. And we have to do that. But at the same time, we have to articulate the vision of what we’re fighting for. You see, there’s tactics, there’s strategy, there’s vision, the vision is legal abortion across this country, on demand without borders! That’s really never articulated. It’s never seen as the goal and the vision of what this movement is about. And what we’re fighting for, becomes, again, as you quite rightly state, this referendum and that referendum, and then they turn it into the show of real democracy, because we’re throwing this into a referendum. And wow, is that a show of real democratic power?

You were so correct in the beginning Samantha, that when you see what happens to the casualties of the women, between now and November, and they’re just casualties of this. The bans are there, and they’ll either not get abortions, be forced to give birth to children they do not want and probably can’t take care of. But maybe in November we’ll win the referendum, but what do we do with the kids now? That’s right, it’s so egregious. And it’s the use of women and women’s lives. You called it immoral? I would even say it’s beyond that. It’s almost Machiavellian. This is what I think is necessary that yes, we have to fight this.

But at the same time, what did they say? You keep your eyes on the prize. The prize isn’t state by state referendums, the prize as we’ve articulated, that Rise Up always articulated this, nation wide. And the money going into this is enormous. It’s really unsustainable. Also for having money for the fund sending women, you know, traveling, because this can be decades long of traveling for safe legal abortion, it’s not sustainable, there has to be actions or there has to be some articulation of that this is just one step into, what we’re on the way, that we have to fight now for what we want, eventually, otherwise, it will stay like this for a very long time.

And you know, the French have put legal abortion into their constitution, Samantha, and I am looking for ways to see if I can get political asylum in France. And I would really like to say that most of the women in this country should get standing to be able to go and request or require political asylum. Because as far as I’m concerned, I am living in a country that I am a second class citizen, and that oppresses and creates systems of cruelty is the bureaucracies of this creative cruelty to ensure that women are kept in this position of being suppliants to the state, that’s what it is. And it has to be called out as much as possible.

Sam Goldman 39:14

That’s an unfortunate transition to talking about Trump, this New York City heathen that accomplished for the Christian fascists, what they could not do on their own through decades of trying, overturned Roe, took away this fundamental right, while he declares it’s up to the states, wink wink. I just wanted to put out there what do you see happening if he is able to return to the Oval Office?

Merle Hoffman 39:41

I see it as the culmination of what has been happening. If you’re talking about Christian passage, all you have to do is look at what we’ve been discussing. I mean, that’s practice for what he may do or that administration may do in other areas. Yes, that’s what we’re looking at! One day I looked at a headline. And you know, it’s “Trump Will Support a 15 Week Ban,” I think this is before, you know, maybe a month ago. And I said, “What world is this that I see for Trump supporting a 15 week ban?” I mean, how did those words go? What the hell do we have to do, to realize we’re in this almost dystopian fantasy, but people have to get ready to stand up for their principles to understand that if they don’t that steamroller is gonna steamroll right over you. But that’s what’s going on.

Sam Goldman 40:35

it’s so true. Because we’ve seen time and time again, they can’t, they won’t, as they have, and they will, believe them! They’re shouting at you. Even liars can tell the truth. They’re telling you their vision.

Merle Hoffman 40:50

They’re telling you what they’re going to do. You know, I mean, during the French Revolution, Mirabeau was sitting next to Robespierre, making one of his great speeches for an hour, two hours. And he remembers, he said, “Watch this man, because he’s dangerous, because he believes what he says.” This is not just political poof, there’s some spin. Yes. But a lot of what they say is really what they believe and what they intend to do, on immigration, on abortion on all of the issues that we’re looking at

Sam Goldman 41:25

Project 2025, from the Heritage Foundation, and a bunch of other groups isn’t fluff. It’s an articulate, detailed, serious, substantial blueprint for Christian fascist vision. And one of the things that’s like in the pocket there, in terms of how they want to go about making sure it’s not state by state, but a nationwide ban is through the revival of Comstock, Federal judges and Supreme Court “justices,” have been actively putting that forward as one strategy to end abortion access nationwide, all of it. You have journalists who are saying, “Oh, it won’t do this, it won’t do that.” But it’s a very open-ended Victorian era, anti-obscenity law. I think this strategy says a lot about how the Christian fascists view their crusade to end abortion access, and how it’s connected to so many other parts of society, so many other rights that people take for granted. I was just wondering, what’s your take on that?

Merle Hoffman 42:28

My take is what you exactly articulated that you have to believe what they say, understand that they’re on a mission from God. They’re on a mission from God. Now, there are secular anti-abortionists, but they’re a small group. But the Christian vision is a godly vision, in their mind. And they believe that America was founded on that, and on that extraordinary exceptionalism to be a light among nations. And the light that they’re looking at should be a fire that we build and create, to make sure that we burn out what they think their light is, because their light will put a lot of people into a very dark place.

Sam Goldman 43:14

That was so well put. And I do want to make clear for our listeners, that when Merle and I are talking about this, we know that there are many Christians who are moved by their religion to be fighters for justice, including justice for abortion rights. What we’re talking about is a particular fanaticism, a particular biblical literalism that uses their religion as a bludgeon to oppress others. And that’s what we’re talking about. Speaking about our fire, I wanted to close our conversation with a little bit of what’s our vision? And what’s our duty right now?

Merle Hoffman 43:55

What’s our duty? I liked the fact that you use that word because it’s a word that one doesn’t hear very often, definitely. And it’s an important word, because I believe so much in the classical virtues in the sense, duty, honor, courage, which I see is the prime virtue. So what our duty is, it first is to see and to understand, and to think critically, to understand really what’s happening. And that requires a degree of critical thinking, which I talked about in the beginning.

The second is to take up that responsibility, and have the courage to do that, of action. It’s always one thing to say, I believe, and I think, but that belief remains inchoate and only a belief, unless it does turn to action. So that we have to come to the point and then that’s where the virtue of courage comes in. And it’s hard to do, especially if you’ve never done it before. So you have to practice courage and do little acts of it until you’re able to say I think what’s happening is egregious. It’s unfair, it’s not right. And it has to stop, then that thinking has to move into action. And with each person, it’s different, but it has to move into action, or else we will never be able to resist what’s happening.

Yes, you have to resist as much as possible. Even the fact that the clinics exist, that’s an act of resistance, anything you can do, talking to people when you haven’t before, you don’t have to run down the streets and say, I had an abortion. But it’s important to be able to own that decision, as enacted moral authority, as a almost a biological, historical, generic, right of freedom. So all of that is necessary. And when I speak, and I’ll do this now that I myself had an abortion.

Again, it’s important to say that and to own that, and for people who haven’t, you’ve known people who have. I mean, millions. You look at since legalization, it’s touched every life, I’m sure, every family in this country. That’s the empathy that (we mean) and I call on men of conscience, you know, we had men involved in Rise Up and, the fact that they say, Where are the fathers? Concerned about your daughters about you wives? Where are they? So it’s not just women, or people who relate to that. I mean, it’s all of us. That’s what I say, that’s what’s necessary. And without that awareness, without that resistance, without action, nothing’s gonna happen. It’s not enough, just to vote in a presidential election.

I want to be very clear, you can vote and the Democrats can get in and Biden can get in. And that’s really when we have to be in the streets and demand that they do what they promised. Because it’s very easy to be elected. And then oh, well, we can’t do it because of this or that. We have to hold the feet of elected officials to the fire, and then fire, I always go back, I start my book with a fire. Because the movement is almost like the Phoenix. We go in to the ashes of the defeat of Roe. But from that we have to rise up with fire of our passion and our resistance. So that’s what we have to do.

Sam Goldman 47:22

I want to thank you, Merle, for sharing your fire with us and for hopefully, lighting the fire in each listener. I know that you always relight mine, if it dims. So I want to thank you for that. We’re going to put in the show notes the link to Merle’s book, where you can go find it and discuss it, buy a copy for someone else, someone you care about and love. Is there any where else that you want to direct people if they want to find out more?

Merle Hoffman 47:53

if they want to volunteer at Choices, because we still have escorts out there, there are still antis out there, mainly on Saturdays, screaming to patients “You are killing your babies, don’t go in there,” so we need escorts. We can use volunteers in all sorts of ways. So that would be helpful to us at choicesmedical.com. And if you want to see more of my history, it’s MerleHoffman.com.

Sam Goldman 48:18

Are you taking on more visits for your book tour?

Merle Hoffman 48:22

I’m still doing it. I’m going out to Carleton, in Minnesota, actually on Monday. And I have a few others that I’m going out to, so yes.

Sam Goldman 48:31

That’s wonderful! If people want to bring you to their school is that possible?

Merle Hoffman 48:35

Absolutely, please! You can write to me directly and you know, we can arrange that.

Sam Goldman 48:40

That’s wonderful. Thank you so much. Take care. For more on the danger and implications of Christian fascist Project 2025, check my conversation with Jenny Cohn and my conversation with Wendy Bai. Let’s just say that what we’re facing is not just more of the same. Both are in the show notes along with some other relevant episodes. For those looking for abortion care, visit abortionfinder.org and prochoice.org. For funding abortion agencies nationally, visit abortionfunds.org.

Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. Got thoughts or questions off this episode? We want to hear them. Ideas for topics or guests? Yes, please! Send them to us! Have a skill you think could help? We want to know all about it. Connect with us on social media. We’re on the places like Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Threads, Mastadon, Blue Sky. I probably left something out, we’re @ refusefascism. And we are also on YouTube, refuse_fascism. So if YouTube’s your jam, subscribe, leave a voicemail, see the shownotes for the button. If you want to reach me personally you can find me over on Twitter at SamBGoldman, or drop me a line at SamanthaGoldman@refuse fascism.org, Or on Tiktok at SamGoldmanRF.

Id you appreciate the show and want to help us reach more listeners to understand and act to stop the fascist threat, please become a patron. Whether you can give $2 or $20, it all makes a difference in producing and promoting this independent, all volunteer weekly podcast. As I mentioned at the top of the show, we’re going to be having our next patron only virtual event Sunday, April 28 at 5pm Eastern time, discussing Prophet Song by Paul Lynch. So sign up to support the show monthly at patreon.com/refuse.fascism or if you’re not in a position to give monthly, totally get it. If you still want to support the show by making a one time gift, visit refusefascism.org and hit the donate button. There’s other methods to give. So again, check those show notes for those methods. And thanks in advance for your support.

Speaking of thanks — thanks to Richie Marini, Lina Thorne, and Mark Tinklwman for helping produce this episode. Thanks to incredible volunteers, we have transcripts available for each show, so be sure to visit refusefascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox. Until next Sunday, In the Name of Humanity, We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America!