Refuse Fascism
Episode 129 “Trump of the Tropics” + 100 Days Post-Roe

Sun, Oct 09, 2022 6:30PM • 34:59

Federico Finchelstein 00:00

Bolsonaro, if re-elected, could turn his attacks on Brazilian democracy into a kind of full-fledged fascist mode. I see Bolsonaro as a wannabe fascist. He’s a person that, although previously democratically elected, wants to destroy democracy from within. He follows the Trump playbook. He has been defined by Trump as the Trump of the Tropics. During January 6, he said they would have done it better. They would just occupy the Capitol in a better way, a more professional way, a more violent way.

Sam Goldman 00:51

Welcome to Episode 129 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States. In today’s episode, we are sharing two interviews. First we’ll provide an update on Brazil where the threat of a second term for Bolsonaro and consolidation of fascism looms large.

You’ll hear from our friend Federico Finchelstein, who we are glad to welcome back on. Dr. Finchelstein is a historian and scholar of fascism and populism. He wrote seven books on this subject, including one dedicated to fascist lies. Then you’ll hear from Zoe who organized student walkouts this past week to demand legal abortion nationwide, as we marked 100 days since the fall of Roe. But first, thanks to everyone who goes the extra step and rates and reviews on Apple podcasts, shares and comments on social media or YouTube. It helps us reach more listeners and we read every one.

Here is an email we received regarding the last episode. This is a note from Christina. She writes: “I am a new listener, having just discovered your podcast this past summer. I’ve been reading Paul Street at Counterpunch for a while now. I am so glad to have found you, what I am calling the most important podcast of our time. You always seem to articulate what I am thinking and feeling far more knowledgeably and eloquently than I ever could. I find myself frequently quoting and paraphrasing excerpts from your show and sharing episodes on social media, hoping that more people will become regular listeners and in turn become activists. Thanks for finding quality guests who are equally concerned about the current state of affairs and for continuing to sound the alarm about what we face if we remain passive citizens.”

Well, with gratitude and admiration to you, Christina, we definitely need more folks like you sharing the show with people that you love, that you care about, calling on them to become regular listeners, and inspiring them to take action to refuse fascism. So after listening to today’s episode, go help us find more people who want to refuse fascism by rating and reviewing on Apple podcasts and encouraging your friends and family who listen to do the same. Subscribe and follow so you never miss an episode. And of course, continue all that sharing and commenting on social media. Now, here is my interview recorded earlier this week with Dr. Finkelstein.

Sam Goldman 03:50

I am so glad, Dr. Finkelstein, that you’re able to be back with us on the show. Right now Brazilians have voted in their general elections. And while Lula, the progressive or liberal candidate, garnered the most votes, the Brazilian system requires that someone receive more than 50% of the votes in order to become president. This means a runoff election will be held in about a month between the two top candidates; the fascist incumbent Bolsonaro and Lula. And I want to welcome you back on and just ask you to share a little bit of what you want people to know about the situation right now in Brazil.

Federico Finchelstein 04:37

Yes. I mean, I think it is a super important election, not only in the history of Brazil, but also in the history of the region. And I even think globally, because this is one of the kind of the world’s largest democracies, and there is a possibility or risk, I think, that Bolsonaro if reelected could turn his attacks on Brazilian democracy into a kind of full-fledged fascist mode. The way I see it, as you know, I see that Bolsonaro as a wannabe fascist, a person that although previously democratically elected wants to, or aspires to, destroy democracy from within. The point is that he has been toying with the idea that if he loses, he will not accept the results because for him, losing means fraud. It follows the Trump playbook.

He has been defined by Trump as the Trump of the Tropics. He is certainly a mini Trump who shares this authoritarian dimension. Now, what happened in Brazil, in a way, is that Bolsonaro, according to most polls, was going to lose in the first round, and yet, Lula, the candidate of the center left, got 48%. So only by two points, he could not win in the first round. Now that we are in the second round of this Bolsonaro has a chance of winning without resorting to other possible strategies, which is like if he loses, like resorting to propaganda, claims of fraud that he’s already talking about, or even a kind of replica of the Trump coup and the attack against the Capital of January 6.

Sam Goldman 06:13

I was wondering what your thoughts on that possibility were because in the run-up to this election, Bolsonaro — correct me if I’m wrong but — I recall that he claims that if he didn’t win in the first round, that would be proof that the election was stolen from him. And so it was a good thing that he didn’t go straight to “I did win,” because he did all but promise violence to hold on to the power with the very real example, as you said, of January 6 hanging over this election. I

We’ve talked a lot on this show about one of the things that fascists need to succeed, which we see here in the US in spades, is a toothless, what I would call accommodating, opposition which refuses to take the threat seriously. From what you’re seeing, what do you think about the threat of this wannabe fascist of Bolsonaro holding on to power and further consolidating power? Do you think that threat is being taken seriously in Brazil?

Federico Finchelstein 07:15

It depends. It depends by whom, because suddenly, now that is the game of those that are not, because in the second round only the first two can be voted. So now there is a kind of game of gathering endorsements from other parties and other players in the political system. And suddenly, already some governors in major states have endorsed Bolsonaro. These are typical examples of conservatives that normalize fascist traits and kind of ignore (at their own peril by the way) how this is a threat to democracy. And it’s not about their own particular, petty kind of politics.

On the other hand, their candidate Lula in his first election in 2006, faced this conservative candidate, and that conservative candidates that he faced in his first election is now his running mate. We can compare this with the Never Trumpers in the US if you want an analogy. There are people on the right that are supporting the Lula candidacy. And yet, there are also people in the center and on the right, that they ignore at their own peril what Bolsonaro represents, and they are normalizing him and endorsing him. So, we see a kind of split. Lula has [support] both from progressive sectors, but also center and even right conservative sectors.

That is the question for Brazil now, which is, whether Bolsonaro will actually win with votes — that is a clear risk and a possibility, I think — or also resolved, if he loses, to a kind of more Trumpist strategy. But this is quite open at this time. It’s not only the threat of a coup, but he might actually win. At least he has a chance. So this is a very open contest, because there are many more millions of votes up for grabs, as well as a lot of people that, in kind of record manner, didn’t vote. The point is that difference that Lula got doesn’t necessarily mean that he will win in the second round. So, democracy is really at risk in Brazil. Bolsonaro now has a lot of pathways from Trumpist coup to actually winning election.

Sam Goldman 09:22

If you could remind our listeners, Bolsonaro has been in power now, but he has not consolidated fascism in Brazil, even though he’s done tremendous damage. Bolsonaro is very openly and aggressively pursuing a fascist program and if he’s able to cling to power, Federico, where do you see things going in Brazil?

Federico Finchelstein 09:48

In that case, really bad. Things will go really badly if he wins. Lula, for example, today, said that he intends even to amplify what he calls a coalition in defense of democracy; a coalition, he said. And we have to think that, for example, the magazine The Economist just said that they’re supporting Lula because, I quote, “Bolsonaro’s re-election, could be only bad for Brazil and the world.” This is not a left or right wing issue, but rather democracy against fascism, in my view, or the risk of fascism. So we need to think about that to understand, you know, what many Brazilians see as an issue, and others do not. And this is the thing that not everybody understands what is at stake here.

Sam Goldman 10:31

I think we can relate very much to that here too. I wanted to ask about the role that it plays, not just for Brazil, but for the world. As you were saying, Bolsonaro plays a major and unique role in the global fascist movement. For one thing, while Brazil and Bolsonaro have their own particularity, he rules much more in the style of Trump than, say, Modi or Orban, and if he succeeds in maintaining power, what effects do you see this having in a global perspective, beyond the borders of Brazil.

Federico Finchelstein 11:07

Well, just the imagine that during Bolsonaro’s presidency, there was a record number of trees in the Amazon being lost, and how our entire world is affected by the terrible anti-ecological policies of Bolsonaro. So his effect actually on the Amazon has been horrible. It is, of course, no coincidence that Brazil, the US and India are the countries leading in death in terms of COVID, because Bolsonaro was a big COVID denier and an anti-Vaxxer. He called COVID a little flu or [Brazillian term for flu], as we call it.

So this is a person that is responsible for the death of many, many people, and even contributed to the destruction of our planet. This is not a small thing at stake, I think. So this is beyond even the question of fascism, because he provides an example of authoritarianism. He’s like one of the leaders of homophobia and hatred for difference. This is really, really bad. I mean, it’s not really like you have to be on the left to see this. Also The Economist said this.

Sam Goldman 12:16

These are important points about what the implications are for humanity, and including and especially the people in Brazil, but the impact that has around the world to people. I think these are really essential reminders of what is at stake and the role of people confronting what is faced in opposing and exposing those who are normalizing it. I wanted to shout you out: You were attacked by Bolsonaro’s son, and I think it just proved to me that they just double down on their fascism.

Federico Finchelstein 12:55

This is anecdotal, in a way, but I mean, two of the sons of Bolsonaro, one a senator and the other one in a smaller political role. Their rhetorical attacks against me — it’s interesting, because it’s almost a symptom of the problem they represent. As you know, I’m an historian of fascism and historian of populism, and I wrote a tweet saying that Bolsonaro represents a fascist project for his country. One of his sons tweeted to his millions of followers. He called me Frankenstein — probably I will say kind of anti-semitic. I’m Jewish, so my surname, which is Finchelstein, is not Frankenstein.

And then he responded with a projective statement full of homophobia. Basically he said that the reason I was saying this was related to something that they see together, which is being the real fascist means also being gay. I mean, this is just insane. And the other Bolsonaro son, the senator, the one that was here during January 6th, and he said they would have done it better — they would just occupy the capital in a better way, more professional way, more violent way. That was his lesson from what he saw here. And this other son who is a senator and was just reelected, he also used a horrible homophobic slang, suggesting that there is a relationship between me and sexual disease, and in a homophobic way.

All this horrible stuff. I wrote, as you know, a book on the history of fascist lies, and this is how Nazis talk. Even saying that to the anti-fascist, you are the fascist. I mean, they’re starting with that line, right? Now, in order for your listeners to understand the kind of person that Bolsonaro is, and why he is so defined by his homophobia, his misogyny, this is a person that when he was a representative in Congress, he told another Congresswoman, he said to her, and I quote, “The only reason I don’t rape you is because you’re ugly.”

So this is the kind of person that is the president of Brazil. He also said, if one of my sons turned out to be gay, I will prefer that he dies in a car crash. I mean, this is a deep hatred that this person has, and the only reason he has not been able to turn into the dictatorial way that he would like to, is because in Brazil there are a lot of voters — actually, in the first round, the majority of them, that rejected this. And also we have to think that the independent press is very strong in Brazil, and so is the judiciary. The Supreme Court has been very active in curtailing Bolsonaro’s lies and anti-democratic activity, and there is a deep hatred that he has for the legal system. But imagine, of course, in a winning situation, how those courts will be attacked.

Sam Goldman 15:31

It’s quite ominous. I wanted to thank you again for taking the time to talk to us. I know that high holiday is about to start. Thank you for the work that you’re continuing to do, to sound the alarm, withstanding this absolute hideous garbage of hate that was hurled at you. And we’ll definitely be watching this situation closely.

Federico Finchelstein 15:33

Thank you.

Sam Goldman 15:57

That was Dr. Finchelstein, follow him on Twitter: @FinkelsteinF.

Sam Goldman 16:02

Monday marked 100 days since the fall of Roe, and the hell of living in the world’s biggest superpower that’s highest court has reduced women to nothing more than incubators is being felt across the nation. About one in three women has lost access to abortion care in her state. We’ve already seen the shuttering of clinics and with it, futures, lives, dreams. We’ve already heard the painful stories of people turned away from care. The horror is still unfolding. And the future is dark; dark ages dark. Forced motherhood is female enslavement. This is something that can never be accommodated. This is something that must be reversed.

Don’t swallow your rage or sit silent and alone in sadness and grief. Don’t follow those who adjust to this new normal and tell you to do the same. Definitely don’t listen to those who echo the fascists on the Supreme Court, as they tell you that the only practical response is to vote harder. Voting and working for elections by itself will not stop this fascist assault. In fact, relying on the elections alone has fueled the dynamic where yesterday’s outrage becomes today’s compromised position and tomorrow’s limit of what can be imagined. And hello, Refuse Fascism listeners, the fascist GOP is rigging elections, ready to challenge any loss and preparing for violence to regain power.

That’s why I traveled to DC this past weekend to roll with the Rise Up for Abortion crew saying a Blue Wave is not enough. We need struggle in the streets to win legal abortion nationwide now. I say all this also to tell you that the audio for the next interview is kind of crap, and I apologize, but the only way that I could talk to this powerful young lady that you’re about to hear from was to do it in a car ride on the way to DC. So apologies in advance. Even though it’s a little choppy, you’re gonna want to hear it because she’s got a lot to say. You’re gonna hear from Zoe, a student organizer with Rise Up for Abortion Rights, who led a walkout at her college and helped initiate actions at 10 colleges, high schools, even middle schools in California and beyond, that did walkouts disruptive actions on October 4. So here’s Zoe.

Sam Goldman 18:56

This past week, there were student walkouts in Washington, in the Bay Area, I think that there might have been other cities, but my guest will correct me if there were, October 4th. These were walkouts to demand legal abortion nationwide. And I wanted to bring on and have you all hear from a student organizer that was critical in calling for youth protests and organizing them at their school and in other cities. Here’s Zoey. Welcome, Zoey.

Zoe 19:31

Thanks for having me today.

Sam Goldman 19:33

Of course. Zoe, you organized student walkout this past week. Tell us a little bit about what they were why you called for them.

Zoe 19:42

Over this past summer, when I was organizing in Los Angeles with Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights, student organizers, including me, had talked about the importance of getting students involved especially at the beginning of the semester when there’s an opportunity for students to use their voices in the movement to Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights. So we knew that we wanted to make it an event that would happen nationwide for different schools to participate in.

For me, I felt like it was particularly important to do it in a school setting, because I think due to these abortion bans, people are not going to have access to continue their education, to continue their career goals that they had set for themselves, that they wanted. And it just felt, for me, going to school really hard to continue classes, knowing that people are not going to have these opportunities and are going to be forced into positions of poverty and unhealthy relationships, and so much more. And so not only did we want to make the statement about the impact that this will have on people in their 20s, and people who are within educational spaces, but also as a call for students to use their voices, and not fear the repercussions of using their voice in an academic setting. But showing the importance of not being silenced, and having students, again, just rise up and use their voices within this movement.

Sam Goldman 21:21

I think that both of those aspects are really critical. You know, as we’re talking, I thought about students not being afraid of the consequences and using their voices. I couldn’t help but think of the girls in Iran who were screaming and shouting and telling, basically, the Islamic Republic to fuck off when the spokespeople for the regime came for their school. I think these were like high school students, right. Then you see those powerful images of the girls giving the fingers to the theocrats. You see the image, the videos, of huge student strikes across Iran, protesting the patriarchy, protesting the theocracy.

Iran is a country which has perfected a police state. The consequences could be death. Here, we are not yet in that situation. People in this country, especially students who have been on the forefront of every movement for change, their voices are needed now to raise this demand. We should take a lot of inspiration, and follow the lead of our sisters and others in Iran. When you were talking, I was thinking about that. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Zoe 22:40

Yeah, I was just agreeing. I also think as people who are young, who will have a full life ahead of them, to know that we are generations who are going to be greatly impacted by this, and generations to come are going to be greatly impacted by this, it’s important that students use their voice to defend legal and accessible abortion, again, for our generation and the generations to come.

Sam Goldman 23:05

And it’s essential for generations to come, as you say, and for people all around the world. Whether people like it or not, what happens here really does set a standard for abortion care around the world; whether legal here or not matters for women in this country, but also for people around the globe. I wanted to ask you to tell us a little bit about what happened this week. Where did these walkouts happen? What were they like? You could start with your school, and then, sure, anything else that stood out to you about things that you heard about happening elsewhere?

Zoe 23:40

The walkout that I helped to lead was at Whitman College in Washington State. We also had high schoolers from Walla Walla High School come to participate in the walkout. At noon, individuals who both had classes as well as didn’t have classes met on a central field on our campus, and we did some chanting as well as opening up the space for people to share why they are participating, why legal and accessible abortion is essential, why students must use their voices. It gave an opportunity for students to come forward and begin this activism so they can continue it both on and off campus.

I said this during the walkout, but I was really happy with how the event went. People really used their voices. I think we did what we intended to do, but the turnout was quite low. I think it means something and it’s an important thing to reflect on. It’s also upsetting, because we are at a time where it’s not just the impact that it’s having on individuals, but the impact that it’s going to have on marginalized communities who already face barriers to reproductive care, and people that we know and deeply care about and we love. I think it’s just been important for me to reflect on students’ inability to participate. But also the students who did come and rise up really had so much strength and use their voice. For some of these students, that was their first time having a space to actually use their voice and express their frustration and anger with how things are going. That in itself was a very special thing.

There were walkouts at Sonoma State University as well as Berkeley, and I believe maybe one other school in the Bay Area. Those events seemed very successful, with great turnout and students expressing why it’s important that we use our voices, especially within spaces of education, and encourage students to continue this activism elsewhere. I think it was a successful event, and hopefully students feel inspired to continue using their voice for abortion rights and for so many other intersections with abortion rights, such as climate change and economic inequality, and so much more.

Sam Goldman 26:13

I both share your frustration at the situation where so many people who we know care about women and people who can become pregnant and their right to abortion, and who care about justice more broadly, and then not coming out to fight for it. And, I also share your recognition and appreciation of those who are rising up. I think that there is a big problem in that people are following those who are just advocating that we adjust to this new normal, and we make it the best we can. As if it’s normal, it being over 100 days without Roe, without the legal right to abortion in this country.

It’s not the first time where at first people are outraged about something, and then they try to make peace with it. And then you can’t even possibly imagine a world where that right exists. I don’t want to go there. I know you don’t want to go to that place. I know that the majority of people don’t want to go there. But whether or not we become those people that allow the intolerable, that acquiesce to this monstrosity, has everything to do with whether those who do recognize it, dare to struggle and dare to marshal the fighting spirit of the people and help people confront the truth that this is not going to be resolved by elections alone. I have a strong feeling that’s probably why a lot of people of voting age perhaps didn’t come out, is the belief that Roevember is coming and we’re gonna beat them at the polls or something. I was wondering what your thoughts are on that? Do you think that’s a fair assessment? What might have been at play on either view?

Zoe 28:09

I definitely think that’s true, and I also think people have a really hard time actually recognizing the on-the-ground, lived experiences that this decision has had; the fact that people are bleeding out and not getting the care that they need, that people are being forced into parenthood when they do not have the resources to do so. The kind of surveillance and criminalization that comes with the overturning of Roe. So I think being able to kind of show this reality is such an important part of the movement, because I do think that when we’re so focused on policy or rhetoric, what politicians are saying, we lose sight of the actual lived experiences and consequences of this decision. And I think that’s a really important aspect of remembering that people’s lives are being so heavily impacted.

People are not getting the care and the services that they need, barriers to reproductive care increasing and not just in abortion care, but all reproductive care. I think that’s a really important part, and something that I really want to focus on as well, is just really showing the actual consequences on individual lives that this is having. But I agree, definitely, that it has a lot to do with the election coming up and that people are both focused on that and see that as a solution to what has happened.

Sam Goldman 29:36

I think that what you’re talking about, in making the stakes and this reality unignorable, is really critical work. I was wondering, Zoe, where do you think we should go next? Where should students be going next? What do the next steps look like? What do you hope to see? What are you working on in terms of rising up for abortion rights at colleges and universities?

Zoe 30:03

I hope students, after these events, or even whether they were just seeing the events, are inspired to organize and rise up. As we talked about, within the movement, we have seen the power of sustained mass protest. The Green Wave movement in Latin America has shown what can happen when people use their voices in mass numbers. So I really hope that students feel motivated and passionate about organizing, whether that be on campus or off campus. Really using their voices and using whatever strength they have to push forward a movement where people can come together and say: No, we won’t let this be our normal, we won’t stay neutral within a situation where there is no neutral, we won’t back down. I think students need to organize, so I hope through the student walkout, people feel inclined to do so and inspired to do so.

Sam Goldman 31:09

I want to thank you, Zoe, for taking the time to talk with us, to share your experience, and give us a kick in the butt to get going, to get moving to rise up for abortion rights. If there’s anything else, any closing words that you wanted to offer, feel free to do so.

Zoe 31:25

Thank you so much. I was really happy to chat with you today and excited about continuing organizing until we actually see change, because every day we are seeing the consequences that this is having. I refuse to back down, so I hope other people can do the same and keep up the energy that people had when Roe was first overturned, and use our voices

Sam Goldman 31:50

Wondering what you can do? Well, join me next Saturday, October 15 at 3pm Eastern for a Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights webinar. Voting is not enough. We need a struggle in the streets to win legal abortion on demand and without apology nationwide. In the three months since Roe was overturned, the rights of women and girls have been stripped away by lawmakers in state after state, almost as if they were seeking to outdo one another in their cruelty.

What we need, what the times demand urgently, vitally and most of all, is a movement of all who care about justice, about women, about abortion rights in the streets with righteousness, with a determination to put things on the line to turn this trajectory around. This is our great responsibility and we must rise now to this challenge. This webinar will feature co-initiators of Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights. Merle Hoffman who is the CEO and founder of Choices Medical Center, along with Sunsara Taylor, co-host of the RNL Revolution Nothing Less show on YouTube. Check out the show notes to register so that you can get organized wherever you are.

Sam Goldman 33:09

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