Episode 121 Refuse Fascism

Mon, 8/1 5:05AM • 43:41

Danielle Moodie 00:00

Fascism doesn’t come in and the tanks roll in on a Friday and the world changes after that. There are subtle changes and not so subtle shifts in how we understand our freedom. What I believe is a big driver of the Republicans continued assault on our democracy is the fact that Democrats still see them as a normal viable political party. They tried to kill their own Vice President of the United States. I’m confused as to why the hell you would see these actions and the things that are coming out of their mouths and think to yourself: “Oh, no, these are people I can work with.”

Sam Goldman 00:59

Welcome to episode 121 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and a host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes, and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States.

Thanks to everyone who goes the extra step and reads and reviews the show on Apple podcasts, shares and comments on social media or YouTube. It helps us reach more listeners, and we read every one. Here are a couple from this past week. On YouTube, Mithra73 commented on our last episode, Highland Park mass shooter Crimo wasn’t a lone wolf, they wrote: “Wow, best show yet. Didn’t know he was an anti-Semite.” He was referencing Crimo. Thanks for listening, Mithra73, and sharing your thoughts with us. Glad you learned something, and if you are a listener and you haven’t listened to that episode, be sure to check it out.

On Twitter, Jose A. Velobulos — I hope I said your name right — tweeted about our episode, Overturning Roe – A Watershed Moment, and said: “This is a great podcast, Refuse Fascism.” Thanks, Jose. I thought that episode was incredibly powerful as well, so if you haven’t listened to that one, go check it out. After listening, go help us find more people who want to Refuse Fascism by rating and reviewing on Apple podcasts or your listening platform of choice and encouraging your friends and family who listen to do the same. Subscribe, follow, so you never miss an episode, and, of course, continue all that good sharing and commenting on social media.

I’m really excited for you to hear today’s interview. In today’s episode, we talk about what to make of the DOJ finally investigating Trump’s actions around January 6th. We talk about what harm it does that the Democrats won’t even call out the problem and have normalized the fascists and their fascism. We talked about the delusional and dangerous actions of the Democratic Party boosting fascists in primaries. In particular, we talk in reference to Doug Mastriano in Pennsylvania. Mastriano organized buses for insurrectionists on January 6th, marched to the Capitol, past police barricades. Mastriano led the effort to not certify in Pennsylvania and to later decertify. We talk about all that and much more with Danielle Moodie, host of Woke AF daily and co-host of #democracyish.

Sam Goldman 03:41

But before that jazz, I want to give some shoutouts. First, to the incoming medical students who walked out at University of Michigan’s White Coat ceremony as the keynote anti-abortion speaker, Dr. Christian Coulier, gave her remarks. They also displayed a beautiful banner reading Bans Off Our Bodies – Abortion Rights Now. Yes, yes, yes, draw a line across all of society. There can be no space for this women hating shit. We must resist. Forced birth is a horror. It’s a horror, and it needs to be called out. Forced motherhood is female enslavement, and going along with a post Roe USA is going along with that. We’ve got to disrupt. We’ve got to be unignorable. So cheers to y’all.

I want to also salute all those who spoke out during the hearings in West Virginia regarding their abortion ban and protested as the Senate voted in favor of the abortion ban, which criminalizes doctors who perform abortions or prescribe abortion pills. A special salute to 12 year old Addison Gardner who had this to say to Republican lawmakers:

Addison Gardner 04:53

I attend Buffalo Middle School. I played for varsity volleyball and I run track. My education is very important to me, and I plan on doing great things in life. If a man decides that I’m an object, and does unspeakable and tragic things to me, am I, a child, supposed to carry and birth another child? Am I to put my body through the physical trauma of pregnancy? Am I to suffer the mental implications? A child who had no say in what was being done with my body? Some here say they are pro-life. What about my life? Does my life not matter to you?

Sam Goldman 05:37

She needs all of us with her fighting for her future and the lives of half of humanity who are being reduced to incubators. 12 year-old girls everywhere should see a growing wave of us in a green4abortion wave in the streets, demanding legal abortion nationwide, now. As listeners of the show know, Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights has had a series of scurrilous neo-McCarthyite attacks hurled at them by fascists, and yes, so-called progressives, meant to get them to shut up and stop calling people into the streets for abortion rights — doing this as the lives of millions are shattered and futures foreclosed because of abortion bans sweeping the nation.

I just really want to give cheers to all these Rise Up for Abortion Rights activists who are not surrendering to this bullcrap, and continuing to fight for abortion rights. In particular, shout out to the LA activists who engaged in dramatic nonviolent civil disobedience. A pair of US veterans chained themselves to the iconic urban lights installation at the LA County Museum of Art, staging a bloody die-in amongst bodybags. A third activist portrayed the horrific death of Geri Santoro, who died alone in a hotel room from bleeding out by a botched illegal abortion. After several hours the LAPD shut down Wilshire Boulevard to civilian traffic and the protesters were confronted with over 75 officers in riot gear.

Two women and a male protester who had poured the fake blood made from washable paint were arrested and charged with felony vandalism. A link to contribute to their legal fund is in the show notes. The spilled “blood” — wasn’t real — at LACMA, because of the real blood of pregnant people who are suffering complications from miscarrying or self-induced abortions, or are being ignored for care until they are near death, as well as the blood of the women who died from illegal abortions before Roe. And today, even the blood of those forced to give birth, which carries a high maternal mortality rate in the United States, especially among Black women.

Lavi, one of the activists who participated, stated “I am putting my body on the line here today as a call to action because we cannot sit idly by as we are robbed of our freedom, rights and futures. No business as usual when you take away our rights. We demand nationwide legal abortion now.” Victoria, a US military veteran said, “I enlisted to defend freedom, not have mine stolen. Together we can rise up for equality and human rights. This is not a protest against LACMA, but a call to the arts community and to all of society. Silence is compliance. Start taking action and rise up for abortion rights now.”

I am applauding y’all. We need actions like this across the country, bringing alive just how fucking deadly and barbaric abortion bans are as part of calling for the green wave needed to rise up for abortion rights and win back legal abortion nationwide. Justice loving people need not concern themselves with ways to bring back the Democratic Party to some kind of ideal or how they’re going to impact and change the Democratic Party. Folks shouldn’t concern themselves in my opinion over what kind of party the Dems should be, but instead how we the people are going to speak up and speak out independently as a force for change; the way that change has always been made, the way that victories have always been won, including how Roe was won in the first place.

The Democratic Party has enabled, compromised with, conciliated to, and even funded this rising tide of fascism. We’ve gotta get real — they cannot and will not fight this the way it must be fought. I encourage folks to not waste their time coming up with a strategy for the Democrats but instead speaking to the millions who can and must create a situation where everyday life is disrupted, [so] that the government becomes compelled to respond to restore these rights. From my own personal perspective — not that of everyone who produces the show, let alone everyone in Refuse Fascism — it must be said that the goal can’t be to change how the Democrats are playing this game. It’s gotta be to change the whole game.

I think we need a revolution. But regardless of where ever you stand on that, we, all the millions of regular people who want legal abortion, who want Black people to be seen as the full human beings they are, who want to secure the rights of LGBTQ people, we gotta fucking scream the truth from the rooftops for all the world to hear about the fascist danger — the truth about what’s going on, about why, where this fascism is coming from, how the Democrats are enabling it, dispelling American exceptionalism and speaking the truth about where our power lies in our collective action in the streets, outside politics as usual. With that I am so eager to share with you my chat with Danielle. Have a listen.

Sam Goldman 10:54

Today, I am thrilled to be chatting with Danielle Moodie. She is the host of Woke AF Daily and co-host of Democracy-ish. Danielle is a former educator [SG cheers] and recovering lobbyist turned media maven. Danielle is also a regular political commentator. You may have seen her on MSNBC, PBS, etc. She’s a contributor to Zora magazine, which is part of the Medium enterprise, and most importantly, she calls out b.s. where she sees it — and, well, we are seeing so much of it that we think now is a perfect time to chat. So thank you. Welcome, Danielle. Thanks for being with me.

Danielle Moodie 11:37

Thanks so much for having me.

Sam Goldman 11:38

First of all, let’s recap where things stand with the House January 6th Committee. I know that you’ve been watching it closely and have been analyzing it regularly on both of your shows. This week, the news came out that the Department of Justice is investigating Trump’s actions around January 6th. I was wondering what do you make of this? What do you think prompted it now?

Danielle Moodie 12:02

There are several reports and I know that lawyer friends of mine have been kind of delving into what does it mean that Trump’s actions are being investigated, but the Department of Justice is saying that he, Donald Trump, is not being investigated. I think that is an important nuance that, to be able to continue their investigation, to signal that they have started an investigation.

For me, I will say that the last eight hearings that the January 6 House Committee has put together has been jaw-dropping in their content, have been masterfully done in their execution in terms of being able to lay out to the American people exactly what happened through the voices, the transcripts and the interviews — over 1000 that they have done — with largely Trump administration officials and aides. They did that in a spectacular fashion so that this could not be viewed as being a “partisan witch hunt,” which is what the Republicans have said for quite some time.

There are two Republicans, as everyone knows, that are on the committee. Kevin McCarthy was given the opportunity to place people on the committee and he chose not to. He chose to offer up some of the most rabid Trump supporters who would have just done nothing to actually get to the heart of the matter of why thousands of Trump supporters attacked the Capitol Building and killed a police officer and essentially defecated, literally and figuratively, in the heart of our democracy.

I have been one of those people very critical of the Department of Justice and Merrick Garland, because it’s been close to 19 months since our Capitol was turned over, since the coup essentially began. I really like to say that the coup has not stopped. What stopped was the physical attack that was happening on the Capitol building, but the legislative attack that is still ongoing, needs to have some, I guess, force behind the Department of Justice that says that they’re not just after the foot soldiers of this insurrection, but they’re actually after the architects of said insurrection.

I think that what the committee has done has really opened people’s eyes, including my own, to the fact that this was not an accident. I think that a lot of people before these last eight hearings, believed that there was this Stop the Steal rally, then these people were all hopped up and then they stormed the Capitol building. That’s actually not what happened. That’s what we thought, because in our minds, I think that it was totally inconceivable for us to believe that the President of the United States that this was his Plan B, that he knew that these people had weapons, that he knew that Roger Stone and Mike Flynn were in contact with the Oathkeepers, the 3 Percenters and the Proud Boys, that there was an actual strategy about doing recon work on the Capitol building, that other Republican members were in on it.

By the DOJ essentially saying that we’re looking into his actions, I think are probably trying to alleviate some anxiety and fear that the people, that the public has — even though Merrick Garland loves to say that we don’t try cases out in public, and that’s not the job of the Department of Justice, which is frustrating, I think that this is a signal to the American people that their work is just beginning and maybe to continue to have what little faith we have left.

Sam Goldman 15:26

I really appreciate that breakdown. Danielle. We, on this show, we’re talking about attempts by Trump to steal the election prior to the election, and we were told we were crazy. We were straight up told you are hysterical — of course, because I’m a woman, that is what we’re called — and to stop it, that it was dangerous, and it wasn’t helpful. And I’m just like: You know, I think it would have been helpful if you had listened.

We had actually called people out into the streets with a demand: Trump, you lost, fascists get out. This was in December. I was out in Philly, in front of the Convention Center [where votes were being counted], and people did not think that it was going to lead to what we saw on January 6th. I think people were very much caught off-guard, so I really appreciate you walking people through why they thought that, because they were told to think that, it wasn’t just a spontaneous thought.

Recently, on your pod, you did this amazing monologue, where you really make a beautiful argument for how the Democrats ought to be fighting in this moment of crisis. Instead of accepting that we can’t do this or that procedural thing cause we don’t have the votes to overcome the filibuster, or whatever you said, you said it more eloquently, that the least they could do would be to expose what the fascists are doing, and name it as such, and call it what it is; at least tell people the truth so that people can know about it and be equipped to fight. And in doing so, possibly change the situation and the opportunities to affect change. I felt that that was such an important point. I was hoping that you could just talk a little bit more about that.

What sort of harm has it done to people’s ability to recognize the situation for what it is that Democrats have all but seemed to normalize it?

Danielle Moodie 17:22

Thank you for that question, and then listening to my monologues. I feel like my show should come with a prescription for anxiety meds and antidepressants. But I will say this: The late Madeleine Albright, in talking about fascism, had a brilliant quote: “When you go to pluck a chicken, you don’t just take all the feathers off at one time. You pluck a chicken, one feather at a time, and then no one notices until it’s bald.” That is how fascism works.

Fascism doesn’t come in and the tanks roll in on a Friday and the world changes after that. There are subtle changes and not so subtle shifts in how we understand our freedom, how we understand the government’s role in our lives, and what I believe is a big driver of the Republicans continued the assault on our democracy is the fact that Democrats still see them as a normal, viable political party, as opposed to the white supremacist cult that they have become.

My feeling is that if you don’t tell the truth, if you do not identify to the public who the villains are and the evil that they are doing, then how do they see the difference; the distinction between Democrats and Republicans? If Democrats, as Joe Biden had said a couple of months ago, you’re still referring to Mitch McConnell, who himself has said that he is the Grim Reaper, he himself has said that he is the obstructionist, that he has no desire to work with any Democrat.

We wanted to believe, or I wanted to believe rather, that he hated Barack Obama simply for the fact that he was Black, but it’s even deeper than just racism, he doesn’t want democracy. He doesn’t want people to have a voice. He doesn’t want young people, people of color, LGBTQ people, anyone who is not a part of their white nationalist fantasy to have a role or a voice in our democracy. So, how Joe Biden would then refer to that man, as a rational Republican or a reasonable Republican are still refer to these people as your friends, I’m like: They tried to kill their own Vice President of the United States. I’m confused as to why the hell you would see these actions and the things that are coming out of their mouths and think to yourself: Oh, no, these are people I can work with.

The reality for me is that people want to talk about the filibuster and the inability to get things done because we don’t have the 60-vote threshold and there aren’t 10 Republicans. Screw the fact that there aren’t 10 Republicans, there aren’t 50 Democrats, because we have Democrats in name only, Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin who vote along Republican lines all the time. So my thing is that if you can’t actually get legislation done, that is going to benefit the American people, then what can you do?

You can tell the goddamn truth, right, that is free. You have a bully pulpit that is down the hall from the White House residence. You could get on every single goddamn day. You could have a team of people put together “attack” ads that go up everywhere, on social media, on regular television, every device that you hold in your hand, there should not be a place where Democrats are not running ads to beat into the minds of the American people that Republicans do not care about your well being. Republicans do not care about your health. They do not care about the cost of living going up and the fact that minimum wage that they refuse to increase. They do not care about the fact that the Earth is on fire. And as a matter of fact, now that you’ve had Joe Manchin make a pivot on a climate inflation tax package, Republicans have decided to vote against vets being able to have aid to deal with the wounds that they have from war in defense of this goddamn democracy they’re trying to overthrow.

So, if you are not laying out for the American people, the stark differences between what the agenda is of this Republican Party and what they are working to obstruct and do and turn this nation into, then what the hell are you doing? Because when a bully comes toe to toe with you, and they punch you in the face, and you think that hiding from the bully is going to stop the beat-down, that is the first and foremost way to prove to that bully that you are a wimp. I don’t care if you throw a punch and you still get your ass beat. At least they know you’re not going to take it lying down.

That’s what I want from Democrats — to tell the goddamn truth. Stop pretending these people are your friends. Make the case that not only are they dangerous politically, they’re actually dangerous physically; that their rhetoric is prompting manifestos to be created and mass shootings to take place that are in defense of what they’re trying to do this country. So, if you’re not making those connections, if you are not making it clear to the American people, then basically what you are telling them is that there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans. And right now that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Sam Goldman 22:30

Yeah, and I think that another piece of it is that they’re the Democrats holding on, clinging to wanting to maintain the veneer of order and democratic norms, and businesses usual as the Republi-fascist Party has lit that on fire and made clear that they are not playing by the rules, any of the rules. They are changing the rules into instruments of fascism to bludgeon people, or outright disregarding them. The more that you cling to that, you not only are going to lose but you are impairing the people from taking action as well.

Danielle Moodie 23:13

You know, it is akin to all of the analogies that we come to use with disaster. It is the Titanic, which is America sinking and Democrats are the ones that are rearranging the chairs on the sundeck. Where you see on my other show Democracy-ish, my co-hosts Wajahat Ali and I had the opportunity to just interview Mallory McMorrow, who is the state senator in Michigan, who ripped her Republican opponent for calling her a pedophile, for saying that because she believes that trans children should have the access to health care. She ripped that Republican apart, and it was a masterclass in the fact that you don’t turn away from a bully. You don’t just ignore them in the hopes that they’re going to go away.

You actually go toe to toe with the bully and you let them know what the hell you are made of. Democrats don’t do that. The establishment doesn’t do that. They’re like, Oh, we’re not going to wade into this culture war. We got a Republican governor in Virginia, after almost 12 years of having that state, having turned blue following the Obama administration and the push in the early 2000s. That state turned back to red. Why? Because they ran an entire campaign on critical race theory and on brainwashing your children and parents rights. What was the Democratic response to that? Not a goddamn thing. They said: Oh, it’s not this blah blah blah, let’s talk about kitchen table issues, and now you have an entire Republican agenda that came in that is about book banning, that is about book burning, that is about upholding of white supremacist ideology and using your public education system as a continuing tool in order to continue to gaslight the public.

So, for me it is about telling the truth, telling it loud, telling it often, telling it until you’re blue in the face. Because the thing is that people are hurting right now, and all they’re seeing is that we voted for Joe Biden, we voted for Democrats, and they’re not doing anything. That’s what I hear as a constant refrain. And I say: Well, why aren’t they doing anything? It’s not for lack of plans. How are Democrats telling that story to the American people? The refrain can’t just be to tell people to vote more, when they told you that they have voted, that they risked their lives before a vaccine to go ahead and vote in a pandemic. So, you can’t just help people that they need to show up and shut up and vote more for the same people that you’re putting in office that aren’t telling the goddamn truth.

We are in a really difficult time, and it’s going to get worse, because you have a Democratic Party that is so in love with a fantasy of who we were that they cannot recognize who we are right now. And that to me is like you’re going out and you’re deciding to go camping in the middle of the lion’s den, and you’re gonna wonder why the hell you’re getting ripped apart in the middle of the night, because you decided to camp where you shouldn’t be camping, but you thought it was nature. What?

Sam Goldman 26:04

What you laid out, I think, is at its most extreme when we think about the Democrats who are not calling out the fascism, but funding the fascists. I’m in Pennsylvania, where, what? They’re funding Doug Mastriano? He actually was not a little player in the coup — a big player in the coup. That’s not an anomaly, they’re doing this across the country.

Danielle Moodie 26:30

It’s called the pied piper strategy.

Sam Goldman 26:32

They believe — their goal — is that they’re going to make it easier to beat in the general election, as if there aren’t millions of people in this country who voted for this shit again, who saw four years of MAGA horror and said more of that, please. As if this Nazi problem in this country doesn’t exist. I just wonder what that says about their connection to reality that this is a strategy.

Danielle Moodie
27:02

There isn’t one. That strategy made marginal sense in the early 2000’s. It damn sure doesn’t make sense now. Here’s what we know, is that more than 25% of the population believes that the election in 2020 was stolen. More than 25% of the population believes that there are times when you should be able to take up arms against your government. More than 25% of the population continues to vote in lockstep with the most egregious Republican agenda. So, you think then that they don’t have nearly enough money with the one Koch that’s still alive, with Murdoch, with all of these billionaire Republican fascists that are already funding these people, that Democrats think that they’re gonna throw good money after bad and somehow roll the dice on our democracy? That doesn’t make sense. It’s stupid.

Instead of spending $35 million, which they did, I believe, in Pennsylvania with Mastriano, maybe that $35 million could have been gone to blanket ads against Republicans as opposed to bolstering them. How the hell does that make sense? You’re literally throwing tens of millions of dollars at these bad actors in the hopes that in the general election, people will see how crazy they are, when literally the polls are showing you that you are neck and neck with these people that you may think that they’re outlandish with their QAnon theories and their AR-15s in their ads, but there are 40% of the population that thinks that they should be in charge. How does that make sense?

This is the shit that turns people around, and they’re like: I’m not voting because you guys are dumb. I can’t. Then people like me get yelled at and get cancelled on social media, because I call out the bullshit. I’m like, how does that make sense to you all? And they’re like, Danielle, you’re going to be the reason people don’t vote and we lose. Me? My one podcast’s gonna be the reason that Democrats lose midterms? It’s on me? I had no idea I had that much power.

Sam Goldman 29:01

It’s nice to be in good company is all I can say to that. It’s nice to be in good company.

Danielle Moodie
29:06

Donald Trump needs to be in jail, as does everyone that was involved in the 1/6 insurrection, not because I think that it’s going to stop Trumpism, but because it needs to send a signal to the millions that are coming in their stead that we are not accepting this in this country, and that we will fight back against this rhetoric. against this hate. But if you do nothing, then that is akin to providing a pardon for Donald Trump and Trumpism and clearing the way for who comes next, which will in fact be worse.

Ron DeSantis, just so folks know, is a lot worse than Donald Trump. Why is that? Because Ron DeSantis is an actual politician, and he knows how government works in such a way to make it work to hurt and harm as many people as possible. Donald Trump is still an idiot, but things could have been a lot worse if he had had half of the political acumen that DeSantis does.

Sam Goldman 30:03

There’s a lot that you just went into. I think that the import of what accountability does and doesn’t do, I think is a very heavy one. It’s part of why that demand needs to be made society-wide. And why people need to also understand what it doesn’t do, and what it doesn’t solve and not be so quick. People are so quick that they seek to be mollified. They seek to be patted on the back and told it’s all right and it’s all going to be good and it’s all gonna go away. We just can’t. I’m not saying people shouldn’t relax and take care of themselves or anything, but we have to stay tense to what actually is in front of ourselves, so that we can fight it. so that we can stop it, so that we can change things for the better.

I’ve been thinking about, and especially as I’ve been reading different pieces, there was that op-ed in the Washington Post by Karen Attain, The Art of Losing the Abortion War for our dear American Leaders, that was a brilliant piece, and there’ve been other ones. Perry Bacon, Jr. also did one for The Washington Post; brilliant things. I’ve been thinking about — when I read those pieces — about this quote from a revolutionary, Bob Avakian, who said: “If you try to make the Democrats be what they are not, and never will be, you will end up being more like what the Democrats actually are.” What in this moment should people of conscience be thinking and relating, and why is it right to raise the demand? And also understand that we don’t want to become the Pelosi’s? So when I’m talking about what the Democrats actually are, I’m not talking about you, or most people, I’m talking about the people in power. Does that make sense?

Danielle Moodie 31:46

Yeah, I think that there is a big disconnect between the Democratic establishment and actual Democrats — the people. I think that the problem here that we are seeing is that the Republican establishment are lifting up their present and future stars, who are some of the most scary individuals that I think I have seen. I can’t believe that a Marjorie Taylor Greene is a member of Congress, or Lauren Boebert is a member of Congress, or Matt Gaetz is a member of Congress, or Jim Jordan is a member of Congress. These people make me concerned about their constituency and who these people are that look and listen to them and think: Yeah, that’s my representative, and that’s a person that has my voice.

I don’t want people to throw up their hands and become complacent or believe that they don’t have any power, because that’s the goal. When you said, you want people not to be in a state of panic all the time, so the reality here is that people do need to take breaks, but we do need for the Democratic establishment to actually match the fire that Democrats have right now, and they are angry. You have people with uteruses that no longer have bodily autonomy. You have people that are trying to figure out if they have the privilege and the means on how to vacate their states and becoming essentially political refugees in other states, because they’re not going to be able to live under the burden of the type of authoritarian fascist rules that are in place.

I want people to be activated to push these members off of their perch of complacency, and I think that the more people that demand action, the better. Just recently, Sri Lanka of the tens of thousands of people that rushed the goddamn government and said: We’re done, right? We’re done with this, you all need to get the hell out of this country, flee to the Maldives, like, we’re done. And I’m like: When are American citizens going to do the same, and be like: We’re actually done with working, we’re done with keeping our head down and thinking that all of this is gonna get better. We’re living in multiple pandemics at one time. The Earth is literally on fire. You got Republicans trying to take control of this country and bring it back to what they believe to be its white nationalist core, and then you have Democrats going around talking about: Well, we cut prescription drug prices. I’m like:

What the fuck? I feel crazy. While I’m happy that you’re doing that, okay, but I also need you to acknowledge that these people are trying to kill us, right. In no uncertain terms, I’m not being hyperbolic, they literally are trying to kill us, and are saying so in no uncertain terms. So at some point, you need to embrace what is instead of like you [Sam] had said earlier, trying so desperately to hold on to what was. What was is dead. What was is gone. It is never coming back. Whatever machination of America is for us in the future will look nothing like what it was in the earlier parts of the 2000s and backwards. If you can’t come to that reality, that place, then how can you build out strategy to combat the issues that we have, if you’re still living in the fantasy of who we were?

Sam Goldman 34:55

I think that is so important. I mean, to be honest, normal was — it was crap. There’s no normal of this system that doesn’t involve grave injustice, outrage and horror for people living in this country and all around the world. And yet, we should agree it’s not coming back. So one thing is you were talking about all these rising stars. I was thinking that when we see those fascists and act like they are legitimate, we become illegitimate. I’m saying we, but I mean you, to the people in charge.

You said this earlier, when you act like Mitch McConnell is totally legitimate, you become illegitimate. There have been a lot of great points made about how the majority of people in this country support the right to abortion, for instance. That is completely true and it’s important to point out that the Supreme Court is overturning our rights with complete disregard for the will of the people and ultimately their own legitimacy.

But on another level, what difference does it make if a poll showed that the majority wanted to lock up women for getting abortions? Banning abortions is illegitimate because it’s barbaric, it’s cruel, and reduces half of humanity to incubators, and many people will actually die. And so do you have any comment on that legitimacy?

Danielle Moodie 36:23

I think that, to me, polls are bullshit. They’re a snapshot in time. It’s akin to reading the tea leaves, and I can’t actually stand anymore when I hear about what it is that the majority of Americans want when we live in a place of minority rule. It does not matter. It does not matter that a majority of Americans are on the side of progress and on the side of rights and liberty and freedom when the minority that is in rule does not care. The Supreme Court is beholden to no one. It is why it’s called the Supreme Court. So you have nine overlords who nobody elected to lifetime positions to be able to thwart the will of the people.

Again, in modern times, we’ve never fucking seen this. This has never happened. We have not, in the 20th century and in the 21st century — probably at the beginning of the 20th century — seen a Supreme Court that is hell bent on actually taking away rights. They’re either upholding the status quo, or they’re on the side of expansion. So for us to be living in a time when they’re like: Nah, all these rights that you think that you’ve had for 100 years, we’re done with them. Then you’re just supposed to what, go along like normal?

This is what I’m saying, at some point, I believe that Republicans are going to overreach in such a way — and I believe that that time is coming, I believe that that time is coming in the next two years. Republicans are going to overreach in such a way that you get all the things that you have wanted, and then you don’t know what to do with it. Because the people of this country are not going to go quietly into the cold dead night. They are not just going to line up at food pantries. They are not just going to move to whatever little blue state carve out may be left. They will revolt because there’s only so much pressure that you can push on human beings before they push back.

So what I would love is for us to avoid getting to the place of civil war, which is what Republicans want. There was a recent article in the Washington Post, a majority of Republicans polled right now — polls again — say that they believe that it is only a matter of time before we enter into a civil war. We’ve been in a civil war since Donald Trump became president of the United States, so the fact that violence is imminent and that we see it in flourishes every day, is crazy to me. But at some point, these bodies, like the Supreme Court, are turning themselves into illegitimate political tools that the people are going to turn around and be like: So actually, we’re not going to follow this. We’re not taking this lying down. And I think that things in this country, I’m sorry to say will get bloodier before they get better. That is just stats. Look at every pattern of history in this country and around. It doesn’t go well.

Sam Goldman 39:11

Yeah, I think that is the sober truth. And I think right now, the majority of people who are sick at heart, who are full of disgust, who do not agree with the fascist trajectory that people are being slanted towards, I think people need to rise up sooner than later because this stuff gets normalized mighty fast. That which you do not mobilize to stop you’ll learn, or will be forced to accept. People expected a lot more of what would happen with the overturning of this fundamental right to abortion to control your body, your life, your destiny, and it was not met with a huge uproar. I think that the the more victories they see, without public vociferous refutation, the more that they are emboldened.

As scary as the times are, as much as they want to paralyze you into complicity, we’ve got to get loud because the future is on the line. I want to thank you so, so much for coming on and sharing your expertise, your perspective and your time with us.

Danielle Moodie 40:16

Thank you so much for having me. This was great.

Sam Goldman 40:18

We’re gonna link to your shows in the show notes. Is there any place that you want people to follow you or read more of your stuff besides your shows?

Danielle Moodie 40:26

You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter, @DeeTwoCents. I’m on Tik Tok @DanielleMoodie_ and yeah, the links to the shows.

Sam Goldman 40:39

Great, thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day.

Danielle Moodie 40:42

Thank you. Bye, Sam.

Sam Goldman 40:44

The Republi-fascists who are not beholden to what have been the norms of role in this country, like, you know, the peaceful transfer of power. The Democratic Party won’t stop this nightmare. They keep trying to maintain the usual way things are done, while the fascists are determined to tear up those norms and rule even more openly and viciously without any veneer of democracy for all. So let’s talk about what time it is. After four years of Trump in power, it should be clear to anyone that fascism, crimes against humanity at the border, hundreds of thousands of people dying at home from government actions and inactions, a fucking coup attempt — he list could go on and on — will not, in and of itself, incite people to magically rise up.

History all around the world shows us that there is no referee, and especially in this country where every aspect of life is so deeply affected by parasitism, with the learned helplessness and alienation, the violence with which this empire is maintained, and the attendant American mythology of eternal stability. If there is to be any change for the better, it will be through our struggle together. It will be through our actions in the streets — nonviolent — and it will have to challenge the way things are done here and the way people think. This is part of what this show seeks to do. This is where our hope lies; together, refusing fascism.

Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. We want to hear from you. Share your thoughts, questions, ideas for topics or guests, or lend a skill. Tweet Sam at @SamBGoldman. You can reach me via email: [email protected], or leave a voicemail by visiting anchor.fm/refuse-fascism and hitting the message button. Want to support the show? It’s simple. Show us some love by rating and reviewing on Apple podcasts or your listening platform of choice, and of course, follow/subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Chip in to support our pod and content creation to help people understand and act to stop the fascist threat. You can donate by visiting RefuseFascism.org and hitting that donate button. Thanks to Richie Marini, Lina Thorne and Mark Tinkleman for helping produce this episode. Thanks to incredible volunteers, we have transcripts available for each episode, so be sure to visit RefuseFascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox each week. We’ll be off next Sunday, but we will be back with a new episode on August 14. Until then, in the name of humanity, we refuse to accept a fascist America.