Episode 125 Refuse Fascism

Sun, 9/4 4:42PM • 48:04

Laura Jedeed 00:00

The MAGA movement is a fascist movement. Trump was trying to actively subvert the electoral process. We’re already seeing efforts to overturn election results. You know, most Fascism is we’ll take whatever was in the culture they’re infecting and then use it. And Christianity is deep in the DNA of America. The Christian strain of conservatism has been rising to the top. Essentially, the movement believes that Trump is a kind of savior figure and he’s flawed, you know, but he’s a hero, and he’s here to fight again in battle against the demonic left.

Sam Goldman 00:46

Welcome to Episode 125 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes, and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States.

125! Thank you for listening. Thank you for being on this journey with us as we engage dialogue and debate with a broad array of writers, scholars, legal experts, and people from different walks of life on the roots, nature and trajectory of fascism in this country. Together we are working on changing the way people think that prevents them from taking necessary action, helping people to look at uncomfortable truths and act with daring. Together we are forging understanding and relationships aimed at preventing the consolidation of fascism. Thanks to everyone who goes the extra step and rates and reviews on Apple podcasts, shares and comments on social media or YouTube. It helps us reach more listeners and, of course, we read every one.

Here are just a few from the past week responding to last week’s show. From Apple podcast we’ve got the Max 69 writing “Mama rules. Being raised as a latchkey kid, you are doing my mother a great honor. We all came from a woman, so why can’t we give them authority over their body and decisions?” That was the Max 69. We have Money Haver who wrote on Apple podcasts: “Uplifting, while the themes are heavy and anxiety provoking, I find this podcast actually relieves the stress. I feel the cognitive dissonance it takes to pretend a bunch of my neighbors don’t want me to get shot at a protest is something I need a break from, and this is that break. Also, I subscribed and they sent me a ton of Abortion on Demand Without Apology stickers and I give them to everyone and they’re my favorite.” Thanks, Money Haver.

Kelly B on Facebook wrote, “Thank you for what you do. I love the podcast. It helps me feel not so alone in my fear and anger.” And via email, Lisa wrote, “This is an invaluable discussion filled with pertinent facts regarding history and government-mandated birth. Forced birth indeed endangers a woman’s life, health care and future. I encourage everyone to listen.” A three-fold action approach demands all of us go to our state legislatures, enlist voters to vote and most importantly to protest. Great job, Sam and Kate.”

So after listening to today’s episode go help us find more people who want to refuse fascism by rating and reviewing on Apple podcasts and encouraging your friends and family who listen to do the same. Subscribe/follow so you never miss an episode. And of course continue all that sharing and commenting on social media.

In today’s episode, we share reflections from two members of the Refuse Fascism editorial board, Paul Street and Coco Das. They share from their individual perspectives, their thoughts on this milestone, this 125th episode and the importance and mission of Refuse Fascism. Following that we’ll share an interview with independent journalists Laura Jedeed, where she shares lessons from attending CPAC. But before that, I want to chat briefly about Biden’s speech. Biden spoke at Independence Hall this past week–Independence Hall in Philadelphia hailed as the birthplace of American democracy where the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution were signed. He began the speech forcefully with a thesis that “equality and democracy are under assault,” and that “we do ourselves no favor or to pretend otherwise.” This, after calling the philosophy of the MAGA movement “like semi-fascism,” he ended the speech with the single word: democracy.

I want to start by saying the stakes are extremely high. There is a fascist force in the United States and we’ve been laying it out at Refuse Fascism for years. While personally, I disagree with Biden’s diagnosis and solutions he poses in the speech, it was extremely significant that this speech was made, and we’ll likely be talking more about it on future episodes. While the fascists demand that Biden apologize, the media treated this speech merely as part of a horse race, normal campaigning. Major networks with the exception of CNN and MSNBC did not air it yet have given endless time to Trumpist grievances regarding the warranted search of Mar-a-Lago and give increasing credence to people declaring Biden’s speech was divisive or political. Meanwhile, Trump pledges vengeance if he returns to power.

On some level, I just gotta say, it was almost as if Biden had just realized that his opposition literally stormed the capitol to prevent him from taking office, almost as if the people he had been and continues to reach across the aisle to only recently started calling for his imprisonment, whipping up crowds to openly threaten the lives of elected officials from school boards all the way up to senators and cabinet members, almost as if Trumpers had just now this week started committing mass shootings aimed at Black people, Brown people and Jewish people. But we know that they have known all of this. They’ve been up against it. They’ve accommodated it, conciliated to it, and maybe even collaborated. And to be clear, no, I am not calling the Democrats fascists.

I also want to say that doesn’t mean that the speech is hypocrisy or should be dismissed or written off. There is conflict and contention among those vying for power, and it’s getting more intense. The fascists are knocking down the doors to power on a mission to impose their will. They aim to deny women’s humanity, erase LGBTQ people, demolish the rule of law and any civil rights, and unleash the violence of radicalized white grievances across the land. This speech was compared, at least by one commentator on MSNBC, to Lincoln’s 1860 inaugural speech, a vision for maintaining the United States and its version of democracy which should be clear at that time and maintaining slavery across half the country.

This commentator noted that one year later, the Civil War began. While I have no idea whether this speech will rise to that, the drumbeats are certainly present. Prior to the speech, Biden had met with a number of mainstream American historians, largely people who give legitimacy to the official narrative of the United States, a beacon of freedom and always striving for a more perfect union — in my perspective, papering over the genocide, the enslavement, the millions dead in wars and coups for Empire, the white supremacy at the roots of the American tree of life. This understanding, whether they truly believe it or not, deeply distorts the truth of the history of this country, the threat we face now and what must be done to address it.

Fascism is not at its roots a threat to American democracy but a threat to humanity. In fact, much of the foundation of American fascism can be found in the history that Biden invoked in his speech, not least of which the founders’ “democracy” that not only excluded but rested on the subjugation of Black people. And so incantations of democracy will not be able to defeat the rising fascist threat, one that seeks to shred the governing consensus of the last 150 years. What Biden is posing — this existential threat — is giving reason to his followers, in my opinion, to further engage in what truly is posed. To be clear again, this threat is not bound by an election cycle, and certainly is not an expression of a pendulum swing.

Many are wrangling with the reality that something bigger is happening here. But whether it gets funneled into voting harder while the fascists by hook, crook or brute force refuse to accept any result that doesn’t declare them the victor, or just truly sound the alarm and organize for what’s to come, because this shit won’t be solved in the midterms. Well, that’s up to us. It’s up to you. We do not know for sure where all this is headed, whether Trump will be indicted or arrested, let alone convicted, but we do know he should be, along with the rest of his crew. We do know his people are threatening violent retribution. We do know that his people are unleashing hell wherever they are in power.

Meanwhile, Trump is telling them he will issue full pardons to all January 6 participants and is supposedly financially supporting their defense. Whether he actually is actually isn’t the point. It’s the message. Democratic strategy, while it has an electoral aspect in relation to the midterms, this turn to more frontally taking on the fascism, calling it semi-fascism, is on the terms of fighting for, in my opinion, the bourgeois norms in this country and it will not succeed. But it could have a major impact on the overall political terrain, both here in the United States and around the world. It’s on us to recognize all of this to seize on people thinking bigger than themselves and wrench out of this a whole different future to truly refuse fascism. Now, here’s historian, author and Editorial Board member Paul Street with his reflections on this. our 125th episode.

Paul Street 10:33

One of the more amusing criticisms I got from those I labeled the Trumpenleft years ago accused myself and others with Refuse Fascism of being in bed with the corporate imperialist Democrats because of our supposedly over-the-top early description of Trump, his base, Trumpism in the Trump Republican Party as fascist. Over-the-top really? In 2019 and 2020 I wrote two books detailing precisely the remarkable number of overlapping ways in which Trump, Trumpism and the Amerikaner Party of Trump have proved to be a perfect match precisely for Refuse Fascism’s definition of the fascist pathology.

Here we are nearly six years out from Trump’s 2016 election, 20 months from his attempted Capitol Hill putsch, 125 Refuse Fascism podcasts later, fueled by the persistent BIG LIE that the 2020 election was stolen. The Republi-fascist party is moving, not merely to suppress and gerrymander votes, but to cancel state level aggregate popular votes in the next presidential election. They are moving to staff the executive and legislative branches with fascist operatives deep into the federal bureaucracy, to impose forced motherhood on a national scale, to crush public assembly and free speech rights across the land, to turn the nation into a Hobbesian shooting gallery, to accelerate and expand ecocide and pandemicide, to outlaw the honest teaching of history and current events. They have the Supreme Court and much of the judiciary, driven in part by demographic fears of coming white minority status, raking in cash from revanchist dark money billionaires. They’re looking to achieve triple branch consolidation and never let go. Members of the Trumpist Republi-fascist base are now regularly harassing, hounding, targeting, doxxing, trolling, threatening teachers, nurses, doctors, school officials, school board members, elected officials, election officials, public health workers, poll workers, librarians, judges, district attorneys, immunologists, archivists and other professional public workers, including even law enforcement officials.

Trump’s top apologist in the Senate, the two-faced viper Lindsey Graham, recently said that federal prosecution of Trump will lead to riots in the streets. The statement was not meant to convey horror at the violence of Trump’s frothing hordes. It wasn’t meant to warn authorities on the need to prepare for right-wing terrorism if Trump is finally and belatedly indicted and prosecuted. No. Graham’s comment was meant to send the following message to the Department of Justice and the Fulton County District Attorney: try to impose the rule of law on our demented dear leader and we will act to impose the rule of force on you. It’s a flat-out fascist threat. Joe Biden calls MAGA Republicans “like semi-fascist.” There’s no like, or semi, or about it.

As for the charge that we’re in bed with the corporate and Imperial Democrats — really, seriously? Refuse Fascism consistently and passionately has criticized the bourgeois Democratic Party of passive resistance for its electoralist, bourgeois conservative enablement of the Republi-fascists.. Refuse Fascism called from the start for Trump’s removal through mass action in the streets, and public squares. We called for mass action beyond the savagely time-staggered big money, major media, major party candidate-centered electoral extravaganzas that are sold to the masses as the only politics that matters. We called for a mass politics beyond the tightly choreographed ruling class contests that take place within the killing confines of a minority rule party and elections system tilted far to the right of majority opinion. We called for mass protest, not just to get rid of Trump, but to set new terms in American political life, new terms that would discipline not only the right-most major party but also the dismal Democrats; new terms that would point toward a confrontation with a capitalist-imperialist system that gives rise to fascism in the first place. We were correct as current events demonstrate.

I say this not so much to crow “we told you so,” though we did, but to suggest that an organization with such a strong grasp on what’s happening in US politics and why, deserves increased attention going forward. The young Karl Marx’s purported maxim that philosophers have tried to understand history but the point is to change history, has always struck me as a false dichotomy. An ignorant monster can change history with a dirty bomb in Times Square, an AR-15 at the US Capitol, or by selling nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia. Those who want to change history in desirable ways that put humanity on a path to liberation need to study and understand history through both research and action. They need to dig in both, to understand and make history in ways suggested by Refuse Fascism’s founders and adherents, who themselves are engaged in a necessary learning process. We did not after all succeed in unseating Trump the way he needed to be unseated, and the fascist menace still stalks this land with the underlying oppression system that gives it life.

Sam Goldman 16:10

Paul’s latest book is This Happened Here: Amerikaners, Neoliberals and the Trumping of America. Now, here’s Coco Das, a frequent guest and guest host of this show and member of the Refuse Fascism Editorial Board.

Coco Das 16:24

Refuse Fascism’s Pledge to the People of the World, co-authored by me and Andy Zee, appeared in The New York Times on November 9, 2020, two days after Biden was declared the winner of the election, an election that Trump never conceded and instead turned into the Big Lie, which he has used to stoke violence and further harden a fascist GOP and fascist political base. This pledge was signed by prominent people of conscience, including Cornel West, Noam Chomsky, Lily Wachowski, Chuck D, Alyssa Milano and many others.

The founding mission of Refuse Fascism was to stop a regime that imperiled all of humanity, a fascist regime at the helm of the most powerful country in the world. Long before Biden was calling Trump’s Make America Great Again followers, MAGA extremists or the MAGA program semi-fascism, and weeks before Trump incited his mob to storm the Capitol. We alerted people to the rolling coup that Trump and his minions were carrying out and which, if we’re really being honest, never stopped. That Trump is still free to hold his fascist rallies, that he is still considered the GOP front runner, that proponents of the Big Lie are winning primaries, that state level GOP fascists are adopting platforms advancing a fully fascist program. And the Big Lie declaring Trump the legitimate winner and the rightful president means that this problem, the fact that this country is full of fascists, will not easily be resolved.

The norms have been torn apart and they are not coming back. And the Democrats who have a different way of ruling over the same system that is more in line with the way things have been done since the Civil War, nevertheless cannot oppose and answer this fascism in the way that it needs to be opposed, even as they recognize the increasing danger, which they can only frame as a threat to democracy and an anomaly rather than something that rose from this very system and this history of American Empire. The Pledge captures the essence of what Trump and the American fascist movement he leads represents: its violent white supremacy, misogyny and xenophobia, its genocidal logic, its anti-science lunacy, its oppressive traditional patriarchy and an alliance with Christian fascist theocrats. Some of these have probably been forgotten.

Remember how Trump threatened the people of North Korea with fire and fury like the world has never seen before. It also points to deep problems and crises of this system that cannot be resolved by either party. Under this system, there is no answer to the millions of people being displaced by climate change, war and poverty. And the Biden administration’s policies towards migrants, while losing the overtly heartless and hateful edges of Trump’s policies, have not been a significant departure. And under this system, the climate crisis — yes, even with the bipartisan climate bill — will continue to accelerate. These problems will require deeper investigation and deeper struggle over their root causes and their solutions.

Some of these things were solidified as victories of the fascist movement. They have won the overturning of Roe v. Wade, and their project of forced motherhood and female enslavement. This is one of the reasons why Refuse Fascism’s mission to recognize the danger and drive out a fascist regime was the right mission, and why voting alone has never been enough. Half of humanity has been set back decades, forced into the role of breeders and incubators. It is shameful that we did not rise up to stop it at so many points when we, as a population, could have and should have six years ago, four years ago, four months ago — when will we learn? When will we listen to those who are sounding the alarm and actually resist this trajectory in our millions with determination and courage? The challenge in this pledge remains: what will you do to stop the consolidation of fascism in this country? What will you do to refuse to accept a fascist America?

Sam Goldman 21:24

You can follow Coco on Twitter @Coco_Das. Now here’s my interview with Laura Jedeed. Today Trump, I think it was today — to be honest, days are blending together but not today, it was Friday — Trump posited that some bit of the FBI is doing would warrant — in his words, not mine — declaring the 2020 election “irreparably compromised,’ leading to a “new election immediately.” And then Lindsey Graham, which I know this was yesterday, he said it Sunday and it was said on Fox News last night, “if there’s a prosecution of Donald Trump for mishandling classified information after the Clinton debacle, there will be riots in the streets.”

Then Trump shared the clip on his Truth Social website. And this to me is a perfect example for those who needed any more evidence that the GOP has further hardened as a party of Trump, a gutted illegitimate fascist party of voter suppression, subversion, and it’s not evident in this particular thing, but I’m sure we’ll get into it later, Christian nationalism.

To help us walk through the fascist threat, I am so happy to welcome freelance journalist Laura Jedeed, who writes on a wide range of topics but can often be seen writing about the American far right, and has been published by New Republic, New York Magazine, Rolling Stone and many other outlets. Laura is going to help us unpack CPAC and the fascist shitstorm that is whipping up and gunning up for civil war. I’m going to mainly be bouncing off thoughts inspired by Laura’s piece in the New Republic titled CPAC 4-day Sermon of Unrelenting Fear has set Trumpism on a new path. Sorry for that mouthful. Welcome, Laura. Before we get into it, I had to tell you that I thought it was such a wonderful, nice touch to call Steve Bannon “scabrous” since it really is true from the inside out.

Laura Jedeed 23:42

So it is incredible. Like you don’t always get somebody who looks the way they are. But you’ve been and is that rare moment. We’re just literarily-speaking, he’s perfect.

Sam Goldman 23:49

Yeah. So I want to start with your recent piece from earlier this month that focused on CPAC. For those who don’t know, it’s the Conservative Political Action Conference, and you particularly talk about the most recent one that happened in early August in Dallas, Texas, where speakers ranged from JD Vance to Mike Lindell, Father Frank Pavone, Viktor Orban, Trump himself, skateboarder Taylor Silverman. Can you tell listeners a bit more of an overview of what CPAC is, what it does, and is there something that is sticking with you about what it’s become?

Laura Jedeed 24:27

So, CPAC — there’s two of them a year now, there used to be just one of them — is the biggest conservative gathering that happens in America every year. And that’s not necessarily Republican, although more and more, it’s the same thing but it’s the conservative wing of the Republican Party. Very specifically, Mitch McConnell is not invited to CPAC. Mitt Romney is not invited to CPAC, although 10 years ago, Mitt Romney was the winner of their straw poll for presidential nominee, so it’s slid quite a bit over the last few years. And I think that’s something that I’ve noticed, this is my third CPAC. I’ve been to the one in Orlando. I went 2021 and 2022. And the party is definitely moving in a direction. It is not standing still. In 2021 it was a party, you know. This was a little over a month after January 6, and it was unclear what was going to happen with the Republican Party. Up until about a week before, Mike Pence was scheduled to speak as a keynote speaker and Donald Trump wasn’t invited. That changed last minute. Trump spoke, Mike Pence did not go.

I feel that was actually the moment that, as you just said, they cemented themselves or began to cement themselves as the party of Trump. And that has accelerated. We saw it more in Orlando in February of this year ’22, and we really saw it full volume in Dallas this year. It’s a three, three and a half day event. Everyone they feel like is important will speak at it. It’s a place where your network, you schmooze. Anyone who wants to be anyone in the conservative movement is there.

Sam Goldman 25:48

Was there anything that you talked about that stood out to you? And in terms of the change a bit, but I was wondering whether there was anything that surprised you?

Laura Jedeed 25:58

Well, you touched on this a little bit earlier, as well. I was a little bit surprised at how much Christianity there was in Dallas. Maybe I shouldn’t have been, because I feel like the Christian strain of conservatism has been rising to the top, really in a very disturbing manner recently, but it’s happening faster than I thought it would. There were a lot more booths in CPAC Central, which is kind of like their merch room that were Christian, really very aggressively Christian, than I had ever seen before. A lot of the speeches very aggressively promoted that in a way that they kind of just assumed everyone would be evangelical in the room.

Something that wasn’t necessarily a total surprise that I think is worth mentioning. Every time I’ve been to CPAC so far, it seems like every speaker gets a memo to put something in their speech. Everyone has the one thing. In ’21 it was “cancel culture.” Iin ’22 it was everything was “woke.” Or later ’22 this time in Dallas, it was a little quip about trans people. Everyone had to say something about how trans people weren’t valid, or there’s only two genders, or, you know, the attack helicopter joke, something. That was a very disturbing trend to me, and I think we’ve seen that elsewhere. But it’s definitely the party line.

Sam Goldman 27:02

Yeah, I’m nodding my head as Laura’s talking, because it was something that I noticed. I was not there but from reading multiple things. And I think part of it was, you know, when they had Orban as the speaker, that in and of itself, to me was really centralizing, whether you want to call it Christian nationalism, whatever you want to call it, this ideology to the center of this convention. His speech in particular, you know, really stuck out to me in regards to not only the attacks on trans people, but on the view of “traditional marriage” or things of that nature. You know, he said — this was a pullout noted as well, in one of your articles — I think your article on him and his speech in particular — where he says, “We have to be brave enough to address even the most sensitive questions.” He says migration, gender and the clash of civilization. “Don’t worry,” he adds with a smile, “a Christian politician can never be a racist.”

I thought that brought together a lot. What his worst is and I think that like, for previously, not in the past three years, I think previously, the Christian fundamentalists, the Christian fascist movement, they haven’t been seen as the core. They’ve been viewed for a very long time as the fringe, including the ways that they would talk about LGBTQ people. That was like, off to the side. And now as you’re saying, I feel like it’s something that they need to have in their speeches, and they’re campaigning. It’s their brand. It’s the core of their appeal and their program. Is that what you think?

Laura Jedeed 28:40

It seems like that’s happening. But I do feel like there was a time where it, the Republicans, had decided that gay marriage wasn’t a winning issue. I don’t think they ever changed their minds on it, but I think they decided that it wasn’t going to work for them. It seemed like it was settled. And now they’re seeing an opportunity to reverse that. I think that the trans stuff, I think we’re seeing how they opened the door with that. I mean, they started with things like, look, we think trans people are valid, we just think we have some concerns about sports. And then that, you know, has gotten us to this point where we’re banning gender therapy for children and for now, for adults.

This is how it happens. They see an opportunity, they’re walking through that door. I don’t necessarily think that it was preordained, although very likely, since you know most Fascisms will take whatever was in the culture they’re infecting and then use it, and Christianity is deep in the DNA of America. But you know, the alt right movement in 2016, was almost anti-religious. They weren’t religious at all, and now you’re seeing that being replaced with the trad calfs and the evangelicals are coming in from a different angle. And yeah, it seems like the Christian strain is winning out.

Sam Goldman 29:40

It would be a whole separate conversation. But I do think that there’s also, as you’re saying, with what has most traction in this country in the roots, and I also think that they are the most organized and easily mobilized section. So I think that’s probably a factor. Reading your article, it’s chilling as you describe not just some of the policies and outlandish stories that attendees tell themselves at this event, but also compare this one to the previous ones you reported on.

One thing that stood out to me was where you wrote “The first time I saw Donald Trump speak live was at CPAC 2021. Not two months after January 6, the Republican Party in shambles stood shell shocked at a crossroads. A week later, Mike Pence had been a keynote speaker and was not on the program at all. But the party had at last made a choice and Trump drank in the adoration of the crowd, like a man dying of thirst. His speech was raw and riveting this time, the third time, I felt like I was watching an entirely different person, a dilettante who, after 76 years on earth finally decided to get serious. Trump’s speech still wanders, but it now wanders with a purpose on the subject of Antifa. He reflects that he isn’t supposed to send the National Guard into states to put down violence without permission from state governors, but Democrats never seem to want to ask for help. ‘I think the next time either we’re going to go for a quick change, and we’re going to send them in,’ he muses.”

The way that I see things unfolding is that Trump and the fascist core that surround him have learned from the failure to hold on and are taking steps to make sure that next time they win. I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. In particular, if you could talk a little bit more about what you saw as escalating or intensifying. What, if anything, you can report on in terms of policies that the GOP is implementing locally or nationally in order to fight this next battle?

Laura Jedeed 31:41

I think that the big difference on a kind of a birdseye scale is in his first term, Ivanka and Jared Kushner, and they’re kind of moderate, you know, I use that in big airquotes, moderate faction, had a kind of a restraining influence on Trump. He was not listening. Steve Bannon got kicked out of the White House. He was not listening to the most radical end of his party. And I think the way he sees it is that his moderation is what lost him the White House. He could have clung to power if he just listened to the aggressive people a little bit earlier.

I think what you’re seeing is a Trump who will never make that mistake again. I also think that the Christians have gotten through to Trump. They’ve made him realize what they can offer. I went to Michael Flynn’s Reawaken America tour earlier this year, which is a real interesting conglomeration of, uh, basically Q-Anon but Christian, that’s a whole other conversation we could have. But essentially, the movement believes that Trump is a kind of savior figure, and he’s flawed, you know, but he’s a hero, and he’s here to fight the end time battle against the demonic left. Trump eats that up with a spoon. I mean, he, of course, he wants to be someone’s savior, he loves it. As far as policies. I mean, a lot of this stuff with the election, the election integrity laws, they’re attempting to pass.

The Supreme Court decision that may come down next summer that will decouple electoral boards from the popular vote of any given state would allow Trump to basically do what he tried to do legally, which is send alternate slates of electors for states he didn’t win. We’re already seeing efforts to overturn election results. I mean, in Kansas, where the abortion prohibition was overturned, I believe, like a 20 point gap, there are people talking about how that was election fraud. That’s what they’re going to do. Anything that they don’t like, is going to be election fraud.

Once they get in, Steve Bannon talked a lot about Schedule F, which is something that’s a bit of news, and I think needs to get a lot more. Trump quietly signed this into law, right before he left. It would basically allow whoever was president to reclassify any civil servant who has anything to do with public policy, which is just about all of them, as Schedule F employees, and they could then be fired at will. Right now, there’s a lot of job protections for them, which allows you to have a continuous corps of civil servants who are basically allowed to pass their expertise forward and also act as a stopgap against extra legal adventurers like Donald Trump. If he was able to pass this, he would be able to do things like gut the FBI, which is what he’s talking about. And I’m no fan of the FBI. But I think that the FBI would get under Trump would be worse even than the one we have now. So I think those two things combined, it’s a very long answer, but that is what I see happening.

Sam Goldman 34:15

I think that’s really helpful. I had written about Schedule F and wanting to talk to you about that, because I don’t think it has been talked about as much as it should be. I don’t think people know about it. And you kind of gave, you know, an overview of it, you know, a plan to allow the executive branch to fire tens of thousands of federal employees so that they can be replaced by loyalists. And I was wondering if you had thoughts on whether they’d really be able to do this. Is this a real thing that you think could go through?

Laura Jedeed 34:49

I mean, it’s an executive order. I’m not sure about the legality of it. I’m not a lawyer, full disclosure. I’m also not sure it matters. The Supreme Court is Trump’s Supreme Court for a generation barring some kind of absolutely insane coincidence. So regardless, it could go through the only way that this could stop would require in itself, I think, extra legal resistance, which would, you know, be what I would hope would happen. But to me, it looks pretty grim. I think this is a very real possibility if Trump wins. You would have to win to invalidate Schedule F. But if he wins, there’s no reason he wouldn’t do that.

Sam Goldman 35:20

And how much of a difference did it make to have during the Trump years non-fascist government employees working under the Trump administration? Can we look at certain things that they prevent it from happening as an example of why they’re going so forcefully towards this approach?

Laura Jedeed 35:37

Yeah, I have been listening to the January 6 hearings. I have very little hope that they’ll accomplish much, but it’s interesting. You know, a lot of the story of what led up to January 6, which to me is much more interesting than the day of the coup itself. You see these moments where Trump was trying to actively subvert the electoral process. Oftentimes, it’ll be just a couple people, sometimes Trump appointees and sometimes not, who are just like, “No, you can’t do that.” The bureaucracy grinds very slowly, which can be very upsetting. But in a situation where somebody has a limited amount of time to overturn an election, that can actually be a huge advantage.

Then of course, we also see things like this raid on Mar a Lago recently, this FBI raid at Mar a Lago. There is a huge outcry within the conservative community to not just fire the leaders of the FBI. But this idea that the agents who did this and betrayed their country by not saying no, that they should be named, there are people who are promising to drag them up in front of Congress and make them account for themselves if they win the House. I don’t know if that’s going to happen, but they’ll try. This is the kind of thing where every civil servant would think twice about going against anything that might happen in the future. And that’s the kind of unknown danger that that could mean a lot of different things that introduces a whole dimension of chaos into this that I don’t like.

Sam Goldman 36:49

What you just were talking about made me think of something that I’ve seen a lot on social media. Liberals, progressives, people on the left, they want to see themselves looking at the far right Trumpists who have been attacking the FBI and saying, “what happened to the ‘Blue Lives Matter,’ what happened?” and seeing it as hypocritical. I think that misses the point. How do you think we should be making sense of this, really, as you were saying, vicious attack, you know, they want to just destroy individuals lives and impact a whole institution because of this? I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.

Laura Jedeed 37:29

I think you’ve hit it on the head. It’s a little bit upsetting to see how people are kind of missing the boat on this I had the opportunity to write an article for talking points that were very recently about you can be “blue lives matter” and against the FBI and not be a hypocrite. The thing is, you’re looking at this like an ideological thing and it’s not. This is a power thing. It’s pragmatic. You know, police are on the side of Trump. Police unions overwhelmingly supported Trump in 2020. The FBI does not. The FBI has a whole history of not supporting Trump, of opposing Trump, of making life difficult for him.

If you believe that Trump will save America, and that what’s good for Trump is good for the country, then that simply means the FBI is bad for the country, and the police are good for it. Blue Lives Matter and abolish the FBI. It’s a whole different way of looking at the world. But this crowing over the hypocrisy. It’s just got to stop. It’s very funny. We all get to good giggle. But it doesn’t help anything. They don’t see it that way. And I don’t know, you can giggle all the way to the gas chambers, not to be overly dramatic, but it’s very silly.

Sam Goldman 38:29

What you’re saying resonates a lot. I think it’s also the “they hate the same people we do” mentality when they look at the police. This is my opinion, not all those on the board of Refuse Fascism or those who listen, and you’re welcome to disagree as listeners. But when they look at the police, they look and they see the same white supremacy that they have. And they don’t see — even if it’s not true, hey don’t see — what they see as parts of the state in the same regard. I feel like they’re one of us here, you’re not one of us.

Laura Jedeed 39:00

I would agree. I think that it’s complicated the way in which the police and the Republicans feel that they’re cut from the same cloth. I mean, I think white supremacy is a big part of it for a lot of them. I think it’s complicated in some ways, but I absolutely agree. The thing about the FBI and everything that is now sometimes termed the “deep state” and I’m a little irritated that they’ve taken that term from me, but they’re working to preserve the status quo, and the status quo is not Donald Trump. The status quo was not leftism, it’s not Trump. It is basically oligarchy. And so they are opposed to it. I do not care for the FBI at all. I think they’re a very bad organization. I, too, would like to abolish the FBI. But I’m not fooled into thinking that makes us friends or allies. It certainly does not. What they want to do is remake the FBI in their own image. And I don’t want that at all.

Sam Goldman 39:45

I think what they’re going for is extremely dangerous, and it’s really important to delineate the difference. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. It’s an important principle that people pay attention to. One of the things a lot of people are thinking about right now is addressed in your recent piece in talking about the implications of 74 million people voting for Trump. And those of us “good” people who didn’t, needing to continue to live side by side with those people. These people are people who are itching right now to be, you know, the army of the new Confederacy in a new civil war. I’m wondering if you have anything more to say on on what it means to have this kind of society where so many people, despite what many would like to believe, do hold these fascist views. And they’re not limited by geography. They are spread out among people who live all across the century.

Laura Jedeed 40:44

It’s a real problem that I don’t think anyone has a good solution to. This is something where a lot of people are going to disagree with me, and that’s absolutely fine. I think the MAGA movement is a fascist movement. You know, two years ago, I would have said proto -fascist. The proto has dropped off. Maybe it wasn’t appropriate two years ago, either. I don’t know. I think a lot of people who voted for Trump don’t see it that way. It’s very difficult for me to wrap my head around not seeing it that way. But I don’t think they do. I know people who have voted for Trump, who do not think that it’s going where I think it’s going or not voting for the atrocities that I fully expect to see if he wins.

I don’t know what you do about those people. They’re not all monsters. If they were, it would almost be easier. I don’t have a good answer for it. I wish that I did. I mean, in the piece, I say, and I stand by this. If you have family members who are in that camp as I do, I think one of the best things you can do if it’s safe, and if you can, is to remain a presence in their life that reminds them that the things they’re hearing about leftists being, you know, in league with the devil, sometimes really with the Chinese Communist Party or whatever, you know, wanting to recreate the gulags — whatever the lie is — they can think “wait, but I know somebody who’s a leftist and they’re not like that at all.” It’s not much but it’s something. It’s hard. It’s hard.

Sam Goldman 42:00

As we close out, we can’t have this conversation without talking about the recent escalation that’s happened since CPAC. With Trump having stolen, — you know, I hate when people are like framing it as like the fascist response to the raid, because it didn’t start with the raid. It started with him stealing. So Trump steals these documents. And the FBI finally, it seems, took them back through this lawful search. And there’s calls for civil war in response to a potential reality of charges. And what is going on here? What is happening here? And how do you see this working out? Does he get indicted? Does anything happen? Because my view is that fascists are gonna be fascists no matter what you do. What do you think?

Laura Jedeed 42:53

I don’t know. I’ve been wondering that a lot myself. It feels like an impossible situation. It feels like no matter what happens, making Trump a martyr is dangerous, especially in a movement heavily influenced by Christianity. Making martyrs is never a good idea. Also, he stole classified documents, and this could be a chance to prevent him from running in 2024, which I do think would be a good thing. I don’t know what the good outcome here is, or if there is a good outcome. I worry about it a lot. When once the FBI starts moving again, somewhat, it feels to me like that indicates some kind of coordinated plan to do something. Whatever that is, we’ll see it soon. These people love to talk about civil war and the tree of liberty needing to be watered with blood, etc. It’s all talk right up until it isn’t.

What we saw on January 6, and earlier we saw in Charlottesville, and the two are, I think, related for a lot of reasons. But in the wake of Charlottesville, it really dampened the alt right for a very long time. They didn’t come back and do that again for a while for a year or two. Then they came back and it was worse than before. It culminated in January 6. Then once again, we’re in this phase where they’ve calmed down for a year or two. And it’s been about a year and a half. We’re about due for a resurgence of that. So we’ll see, I think that if we see it, we’ll start seeing smaller demonstrations, like the kinds of things that we saw in places like Oregon and Washington DC in the lead up to January 6. I think that’s what we’ll see. And that’s how we’ll know if this is you know, something to worry about.

Sam Goldman 44:16

I wanted to close by asking if there’s anything that we didn’t touch on that you want to take a moment and mythos to mention, to bring people’s attention to,

Laura Jedeed 44:28

We covered so much. The one thing that I’ll say which I say whenever I can, is the way the way that culture works is very interesting, and it doesn’t seem like the most pressing issue to a lot of people. I think that the trans issue is maybe the most important thing right now. I think that our trans siblings are in a great deal of danger. And I think that that is the road through which the Conservatives and the the far right are getting to regular people, getting dissenters. This squeaky transphobia that people feel they’re playing on it. And I think that one of the most important things that we can do you is to stand up for trans people right now in any way we can be vocal talk to people, you know, be an ally. It’s never been more important.

Sam Goldman 45:07

Well, I want to thank you, Laura for sharing your perspective, your journalism, your curiosity about this topic and your passion to see this fascist movement not have its tracks. You can read more from Laura by visiting large iv.com and following her on Twitter @LauraJedeed.

Laura Jedeed 45:25

Absolute pleasure talking with you and thank you so much.

Sam Goldman 45:29

Over the past 125 episodes, we are proud to have established with you a strong community of people who care enough about the world to confront the fascist threat head on at this epic juncture. I want to take a moment to ask you to take one step out and grow the base of listeners, share, discuss and contribute to this fight to refuse fascism. We want to hear from you share your thoughts, questions, ideas for topics or guests or lend a scale. Tweet me @SamBGoldman or you can drop me a line at [email protected] or leave a voicemail by visiting or by hitting the Message button.

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