Fascist Riots in UK; Fascist Plots in US
Refuse Fascism Episode 213

Sian Norris  00:00

The far right has been on the rise in the UK for the last decade. This is a networked movement. It coalesces around a shared ideology. These powerful, influential voices stoke up hate, share disinformation. As the far right coalesces around an ideology, that can be sparked into real life, street violence by an inciting moment. That kind of interconnectedness is happening on their side, and it’s why we absolutely need a global movement of anti-fascist solidarity. 

Sam Goldman  00:49

Welcome to episode 213 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States. And I gotta say, I’m glad to be back with you. In today’s episode, we are sharing an interview with Sian Norris, discussing the fascist riots that took place across the UK.

But first, a big thank you to the patrons and sustainers that make this show possible with their donation of $2 or more a month. If you want to join them, sign up at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism. You can also support Refuse Fascism by getting a t-shirt or tank top. See the show notes and patrons, you have a discount code. Or, for no dollars at all, you can tell a friend about the show, SHARE IT on the social medias, rate the show on your listening platform of choice, or be bold and write a review — they boost the show so much, and I mean, don’t you think refusing fascism needs some boosting right now? They also just mean a lot to us, so write a review, of course, after you listen to today’s show.

Before the interview, here’s some recent developments as they relate to the Republi-fascist threat: Let’s start with news out of the most consequential legislative body right now, the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court’s actions in the last week of their most recent term have borne fruit. Recall the court overturned Chevron deference, which was a policy of deferring to the expertise of government agencies when a rule or regulation is called into question. Remember how we warned that this was a gift to major corporations, to anyone trying to push the limits of exploitation, to the biggest polluters and greenhouse gas emitters, to the most destructive industries, and most of all, to the fascist political program.

Well, now, within two months of the decision, we have Amazon and the United States Air Force both bringing claims to the courts to challenge the EPA, the USDA and the National Labor Relations Board, all citing the end of Chevron deference. Whether they win or lose — and Amazon already won one case — these kinds of lawsuits and challenges tie up enforcement of even the most basic regulations, with even worse effects to come as these agencies are stripped of one power after another. For fascists, the only legitimate function of government is cruelty and domination. 

On this front and many others, they are tearing down everything and anything that serves the common good. This core theme animates historical fascism. It runs through the MAGA movement and is laid out in excruciating detail in the infamous Project 2025. Speaking of which, this week, we witnessed via new hidden camera footage thanks to British NGO Center for Climate reporting, former Trump official, and one of Project 2025’s lead authors, Russell Vought and his aide, Micah Meadowcraft, explaining the second phase of that project, “A comprehensive, concrete transition plan for each federal agency.” In the video, Vought discusses his close relationship with the GOP, including recently being chosen by the Trump campaign to write the official platform for the Republican Party, along with two other bona fide fascists. He talks about how the perception of Trump distancing himself from Project 2025 hasn’t changed this dynamic, how Heritage and their ilk see J.D. Vance as one of their own, that it’s even likely Trump may choose a direct contributor to the project to head up his transition team if they are able to take power, and that this collaboration between Project 2025.  And, that the Trump team is entering a new stage in order to implement the second phase of Project 2025: 350 detailed handbooks for the Cabinet members and appointees of a future Trump administration on how to concretely implement their deadly vision in every sphere of government.

Contrary to the official statement of Vought’s organization that no new information was exposed in the set of videos, Vought’s aide also explained on camera how they plan to keep this phase secret. The footage comes thanks to two undercover investigators from the British NGO, Center for Climate Reporting. In an interview on Democracy Now, the founder of that organization, Lawrence Carter, described how, for one example, the prospect of the largest mass deportations in history, a pillar of Trump’s platform, came out of the fascist movement via Phase One of Project 2025. It’s then been taken up by Trump and his campaign, and then both the policy of mass deportation and the suppression of dissent by the military are made actionable on day one of a new Trump administration via  Phase Two of Project 2025. See the show notes for the full investigative report.

ProPublica, in partnership with Documented, have released a must read piece giving us a window into some of what these handbooks might provide. They described leaked videos made by the Heritage Foundation to train future Trump White House staffers and appointees. These videos seem to be components of what Vought refers to as Phase Two. Over the course of twenty three videos, former Trump staffers and other fascist strategists aim to orient the thousands of people Heritage has recruited and pre screened to flood into public service under what they referred to as “an unnamed future conservative president.”

As the report explains, “The Project 2025 videos coach future appointees on everything from the nuts and bolts of governing to how to outwit bureaucrats. There are strategies for avoiding embarrassing Freedom of Information Act disclosures and ensuring that conservative policies aren’t struck down by ‘Left wing judges.’ Some of the content is routine advice that any incoming political appointee might be told, other segments of the training offer guidance on radically changing how the federal government works and what it does.”

That’s what Republi-fascists plan on doing once they have power. Now, let’s talk about how they think they’ll get there. Back when Biden was still the Democratic candidate for president, and polls consistently showed Trump either tied or ahead, even when it looked like Trump was on track to win fair and square, mango Mussolini and the Heritage Foundation and all kinds of fascists were screaming from the rooftops that they would not accept the results of the 2024 presidential election, should they not come out the victor. They’ve been working overtime for four years to infiltrate and undermine the institutions that legitimize American elections. Now that polls show their candidate losing, their strategy to subvert the elections and install Trump is going into overdrive.

Trump is openly praising Trumpist state election board members and county election commissioners who have proven their loyalty to the Big Lie through baselessly challenging the results of the elections in 2022 and the results of the primary elections, even just earlier this year. Rolling Stone exposed how at least seventy county election commissioners are poised to disrupt the November elections. In this Rolling Stone article, they quoted lawyer Mark Elias explaining, “I think we are going to see mass refusals to certify the election. Everything we are seeing about this election is that the other side is more organized, more ruthless and more prepared.”

You might be thinking: Those commissioners don’t have the power to change who people vote for. Yeah, you’re right. But through refusing to certify results and sowing legal confusion about their role, jamming up courts with wild allegations or baseless claims that they need more information before certifying, dragging all this on beyond the limits set by state and federal laws, they aim to get whole chunks of votes, even whole states worth of votes simply thrown out. Not only have they strategically positioned loyalists to their cause, they’ve even changed the rules in Georgia to require a vaguely defined, “reasonable inquiry” prior to certification of the results.

As much as January 6th became a focal point of Trump’s effort to overturn the 2020 election, don’t  forget that those efforts also included legal challenges in the courts, unnecessary recounts, attempts to legitimize alternate electors, broad efforts to convince the public of irregularities and more. But like most of Trump’s first term, they were trying to implement their goals through impulse, through improvisation, flying by the seat of their pants, using whoever they could find to keep a straight face while saying the most unhinged things.

Today, they’ve enlisted the most manipulative minds of the American right to craft detailed strategies, and they’ve secured loyal personnel into a significant number of official positions. Sean Morales Doyle of the Brennan Center laid it out, stating: “This has started earlier in the cycle and is louder and is more consistent. That is all just at a different level than it was before 2020.” Check the show notes for resources I mentioned and more to learn more about these developments.

Now, we’ve got to talk about the DNC. If you’ve been living under a rock, you might not know that this Monday, the Democratic National Convention will begin in Chicago. Kamala Harris and Tim Walz will become the official candidates of the Democratic Party for President and Vice President in 2024. The world will be watching, and you gotta wonder: What will they see? As we face the threat of a fascist strongman ascending to the highest office of the American empire, again, leading a battle tested fascist movement of millions, with the full throated support of the entire GOP, and unprecedented mobilization of the right wing policy ecosystem, the world will witness an opposition campaign running on vibes — deciding  that fascism is just too complicated and scary to talk about — denialism and the vaguest happy thoughts are just so much simpler and let’s face it, way more fun.

Those who don’t want what Trump is selling have shifted from a state of hopelessness and resignation to losing an election to fascists to now, with the Democratic Party on pace to beat the Republi-fascists ar the ballot box, to a state of pure hype, enthusiastically donning the blinders to genocide, to any alternate program to oppose fascism, to the reality of what we face. To the extent that we hear anything about the horrors of Trump’s program, it will be used to shame people into falling in line so that we can avoid this existential threat. 

The Democratic Party leadership has become convinced that they found Trump’s kryptonite: “weird, creepy, freakish cringe.” They believe that this is the energy that will get more people to the polls… and it just might! Seems to be working. But here’s a question: Isn’t it weird that the fascists have been able to implement so many key parts of their program, from ending the right to abortion to shutting down the border to eroding the power to enforce basic rules and regulations, even while the Dems are in power, mainly via the Supreme Court? 

Another question: Is it going to feel weird when fascists continue to change state laws to manipulate the vote? How weird will it feel when the Supreme Court entertains batshit challenges to the results if they pull a Bush v Gore, like in 2000 when they still cared about maintaining legitimacy? How weird is it that the leaders of the January 6th coup attempt have never faced repercussions? How weird do you think it’ll get if Trump’s fascist minions, including those in law enforcement and the military, refuse to accept a loss, or when they find the mechanisms to sow significant violence towards overturning a loss? 

Will the fact that it’s weird stop any of that? Trump has no shame. Vance, no shame. Mike Johnson, no shame. The MAGA mob bask in their shameless pursuit of power. How does “weird” stand up to a fascist movement that would like to win elections, but is wholly and shamelessly committed to seizing and holding power by whatever means possible? So there’s that. Meanwhile, outside the convention hall, there are expected to be tens of thousands demanding an end to the U.S. backed genocide in Gaza, the genocide that right now, Harris is currently enabling in a role as Vice President. 

The flip side of painting Trump as weird is gonna be painting genocide and the rest of the empire as normal. We heard Kamala say, “I’m speaking,” when the voices of literally tens of thousands of people in Gaza will never be heard again, and this message will likely resonate from the rafters. There will be some honeyed words. There will likely be talk of negotiations and aspiring to a ceasefire, while they allow Bibi to assassinate the people who they’re supposed to be negotiating with. We will likely see displays of pride in the genocide of Palestinians, and demands that if you want to stop fascism, you must get on board with the whole program. 

And let me say this: Weird is often good. Liberation is not normal. With this “weird” campaign, the Democrats are stating their one true goal: Not combating climate change or restoring abortion rights or ending white supremacy, or even fighting fascism, but maintaining the status quo of the empire. In Chicago, we will see the Democrats set the tone and the scope of acceptable opposition to fascism. Accepting those terms will not save us. For all their efforts to portray Trump as weird, they will ultimately legitimize him by drumming into the nation that the only acceptable political activity is voting. And if fascism is one of only two viable options on the ballot, how weird can it be? So is weird the problem, or is fascism? With that, here is my interview with Sian Norris.

You may have seen in your news feeds, the mobs rampaging through the U.K. this month, setting fire to hotels housing migrants, dragging people from cars to beat them, fascist violence unleashed against asylum seekers and Muslims fueled by disinformation from the likes of Elon Musk in response to a mass stabbing in Southport, England.  I must note that the perpetrator was not a Muslim nor an asylum seeker.

To understand what happened, what is happening, what’s fueling this, the anti-fascist response and lessons for all of us concerned by the fascist threat, I am so happy to welcome back onto the show Sian Norris for analysis and perspective from the other side of the pond. Sian is a senior investigative reporter at Open Democracy. Her work has also been published in all sorts of places, like The Observer, The Guardian, New Statesman, Byline Times, other places, I’m sure you’ve seen her work. Her latest book is Bodies Under Seige: How the Far Right Attack on Reproductive Rights Went Global, (which) came out last year. And I just want to welcome Sian. Welcome, Sian. Thanks for coming back on.

Sian Norris  16:55

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Sam Goldman  16:58

I just wanted to start, I guess, with a wide lens question: That the news often talks about rioters, thugs, vandals, vigilantes, but there are much more powerful forces behind these riots. I was wondering if you could talk about who’s leading the development of this 21st century British movement. Who’s fanning these flames? Who’s coordinating the violence, and then from there, we could talk about: Who are the people that are in the streets?

Sian Norris  17:25

It’s been a difficult few weeks in the U.K. As you mentioned in your intro, we had this horrific killing of little girls — three small girls who’d gone to a Taylor Swift tap dance class and were stabbed to death by a teenager. Because the teenager was under 18 at the time, his name was not released to the public. This is completely standard when someone has been charged for a crime and they’re a child. His name has since been released because he’s turned 18.

But in that gap of information, a lot of disinformation came out that he was a Muslim man, he was an asylum seeking person, he’d come to the U.K. illegally on a small boat from France across the channel. This kind of sparked these horrific riots that took place in my city, where I live, in Bristol, but also in London, in the northwest of England, and in Northern Ireland. What’s been really interesting, in terms of someone who does a lot of reporting and research on the rise of the far right is how it’s kind of taken a lot of people by surprise. We should be shocked. It’s horrific what has happened, but potentially not surprised.

We’re still, in the U.K., very stuck in this old way of thinking about the far right. We still see it as a group of mostly men in a pub back room getting drunk listening to a leader, having hierarchical structures within very organized groups. But that is not the reality that we see today in the far right, both in the UK and internationally. There are organizations, there are groups. One of the sort of big groups that we have in the UK is called Patriotic Alternative. They’re a believer in the white genocide conspiracy theory. They believe that white people are being replaced by migrant people. Another organization, Britain First, organizes protests outside hotels that are housing asylum seeking people — it’s a result of a government policy that we might want to get into later.

Ultimately, this is a networked movement. It exists mostly online. It coalesces around a shared ideology, rather than following a specific leader. That shared ideology is the great replacement conspiracy theory, a belief that a white genocide is taking place against white Britons — the indigenous white Britons, as they sometimes call them — and that the way to defeat this, the way to reverse replacement, is to enact a genocide of their own. The way that we can look at this is, as I say, we have groups, but we also have this messaging, this ideology, that is telegraphed out to followers of the far right, far right influential thinkers, social media influencers, so called philosophers, and particularly (one who) goes by the name Tommy Robinson — his real name is Stephen Yaxley Lennon. His right hand man, this guy called Daniel Thompson, I think his name is James Goddard, who was a far right activist who has got into trouble for kind of intimidating MPs, and doesn’t even live in the UK.

These are the kind of far right voices that go out online, make a lot of noise, skirt around the edges of what is acceptable. They don’t commit crimes online. They don’t actually incite violence, but they share this disinformation, they share this kind of rhetoric about: We need to stand up. We need to fight back. This is what’s coming. This is what’s happening to our children. There’s often a lot of focus on children. And then on a sort of other level, you have people who would not associate themselves with the far right, but who are kind of allies or sharing the same disinformation, sharing the same rhetoric of the far right, but who would present themselves as not far right.

That’s Elon Musk, who said that a civil war was inevitable in Britain as a result of these killings. Civil War, and for need for a war, is part of that fundamental ideology to defeat replacement. We will spark a war — “There will be day X, there will be Boogaloo. The war will come.” And then Nigel Farage, who’s on his eighth attempt, just been elected as an MP for the first time in Britain, who again, says he is not part of the far right, but in the wake of the first riot was: “If you think this is bad, wait till you see what’s coming.” Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister, doesn’t have a clue, really stoking up that kind of fear of what’s around the corner, that more violence is to come, that something else is going to happen, and then as soon as that does happen, scurrying away, saying: Nothing to do with me.

While I think it’s really important to understand that the modern far right, as I say, is not a hierarchical leader led movement — it’s not everyone going on a March following this one person — we have these powerful, influential voices that stoke up hate, share disinformation, as the far right coalesces around an ideology that can be sparked into real life, street violence by an inciting moment. And in this case, the inciting moment was these killings. The man in question has been charged with an attempted murder, but obviously he’s now been charged — that’s kind of contempt of court to sort of talk about anything to do with that, but we can talk about what happened as a result.

Sam Goldman  22:39

Absolutely, really appreciate that breakdown, because so many of our listeners aren’t familiar with Nigel Farage or Tommy Robinson or those names.

Sian Norris  22:50

I wish I was not familiar with Nigel Farage [laughing] would make my life so much better.

Sam Goldman  22:56

I wish the same for you. I think that what you were saying about the ideology that’s fueling this, and then that permeates through all these different whether it be social media or chat groups, or even, I think the media has played some role in seeding these ideas, or at least — I don’t want to say seeding them… giving them hearing, or mentioning that the rationale as if it’s a legitimate cause. I was hoping that you could speak a little bit more, for those who might not be familiar, of the ideology that is fueling it. You spoke some to Great Replacement and Boogaloo. If there’s anything more that you think people need to understand that might help us grasp how it happened so quickly…How it went from a horrific killing of children to horrific fascist mob violence being unleashed? I think that part of understanding that is understanding the fascist ideology that was stoked.

Sian Norris  23:55

I’m sure most of your listeners will be familiar with Great Replacement conspiracy theory, but it’s always worth revisiting it. So this is a completely baseless conspiracy that believes white people in the Global North are being replaced by brown people from the Global South — so, migrant people. That replacement is being fueled by feminists who are repressing the birth rate via abortion and contraception — the white birth rate. And of course, as in almost all far right conspiracy theories, is being controlled by a liberal elite, i.e., the Jewish people. It’s got all the ingredients: racism, misogyny, anti-semitism. 

The other kind of way in which the far right speaks about replacement is this idea of white genocide. An example I always give is when I was researching my book, I was on Mark Collette’s telegram channel. So he’s the founder of Patriotic Alternative, the group I mentioned earlier, and he shared a cartoon that was of a lot of white women in an abortion clinic, a lot of hijabi-wearing women in a maternity clinic, and then the caption: “This is white genocide.” So, the idea that brown Muslim women are having all these babies and white women are aborting their fetuses, and that’s causing replacement, and if we don’t act now, then White people will no longer be the majority in the U.K. 

Why is that a problem? What do you treat minorities like? That means you’re afraid of being one. It’s really disturbing in every way. The sort of other part of this theory, in this belief system, is that there is a coming storm, that there will be an incident that will incite day X, the start this civil war. And what the far right ultimately want to achieve is race war; civil wars and race wars that lead to pure ethnostates, and you achieve that via the genocide that you are claiming is being enacted against you. So you have people like Richard Spencer in the U.S. talk about ethical ethnic cleansing — I mean, there’s no such thing that’s not a real thing — forced deportation, repatriation, and obviously, in its most violent iteration, murder and forced sterilization of Black and global majority of women. 

I think what we saw on the streets of the U.K. is there were these really horrific incidents of visibly foreign men — I’m saying that advisedly, so like you know, British Asian men, and a Romanian man — being dragged out of their cars with men like shouting, “Kill them! Kill them!” I wrote in my analysis for Open Democracy about this, that this is the acting out of the fantasy of genocide. They’re not actually, thank God, killing them at this moment, but it’s like they’re fantasizing about what they want to do, which is, you know, murder, genocide. At the same time, the rioters set fire to hotels that were housing asylum seeking people. These were hotels that had people in them. 

At the time of the fire, they had children inside them. And again, this is enacting the fantasy of genocide. It’s a pogrom. We’re setting fire to where you live to tell you that we do not want you here, and we don’t care what happens to you. So that was incredibly frightening. I remember looking at the footage on Twitter when the fires were starting. I was like: Someone could die, children could die. We had a fire in Britain in 2017 and 72 people were killed. It feels very visceral, seeing these fires.I think the other really important aspect of this ideology and how it linked to this particular inciting incident is the idea of children. 

We know that on the far right, there’s this kind of obsession with child protection. Nobody’s against child protection, we all want children to be safeguarded and protected — but when we look at the QAnon conspiracy theory, this idea of like, we have to save the children, our children are under threat, they’re being harmed by these liberal elites, by these others, by Muslim men, by LGBT people, by drag queens, the other has come to take away our children. This really ties into that Great Replacement aspect. Children are the front line of replacement. If you are not having the next generation of white children for the nation, for the race, then you are being replaced. So a lot of the placards that we saw at these riots were like: “Save the Children,” “Save Our Children.” 

A lot of the recruitment of people into the far right that we have seen over recent years is via the QAnon conspiracy theory that children are being trafficked. And, you know, children are being trafficked into sexual exploitation, it’s just not happening in tunnels under pizza restaurants, it’s happening by the person you know. And with the anti-vax stuff, children are being harmed by vaccines, by lockdowns. And by the anti-drag activism, you know, drag queens are grooming your children, are sexualizing your children. And also, in the U.K., we had this, again, a very real issue of grooming gangs, and a very horrific situation in the northwest of mostly Pakistani men grooming and sexually exploiting mostly white working class teenagers.

 This was something that happened, and the far right weaponized the race of the victims and the perpetrators in order to recruit people, and to say: Your children are being threatened by this other, by these immigrants, by these Muslims. Again, failing to recognize that the unifying thing about sexual exploitation of young women is generally men, rather than brown men. Constantly, this threat against children being used to recruit and to justify racist violence. When we look at that in terms of that Great Replacement ideology, in terms of this antagonism against feminism, abortion, reproductive rights, and a complete othering of migrant children and black and minority ethnic children, we can really see how that message is part of this incitement to violence, this incitement to war. We are defending our children, they’re coming to take our children away. It’s really grim.

Sam Goldman  29:53

I really appreciate that walk through. I’m wondering who is participating, or who was participating in these horrific acts against Muslims, or people they perceive to be Muslim asylum seekers, or those who they perceive to be asylum seekers? Who has been activated? And what more do we need to know regarding that?

Sian Norris  30:15

When we look at what’s happened in the U.K. over the last few weeks, it’s a real classic case of what Hannah Arendt calls the alliance of the elite in the mob. I mean, just from looking at the footage, it’s mostly white men, with some women. It is generally mostly men.

Sam Goldman  30:32

It’s a real shocker there. Real, real shocker.

Sian Norris  30:35

That’s who the far right mostly is, and obviously some women as well. We know that a lot of the riots were taking place in a lot of the more deprived areas of Britain. That’s where we saw the most significant violence. This isn’t a surprise. There’s a narrative that people love, that it’s just like: oh, white working class men are really racist. That is not the case. White working class men are also generally on the forefront of anti-racist, trade unionist, left wing movements. But we know that in really deprived areas of Britain, there’s a lot of resentment, understandably, there’s a lot of anger. There’s a lot of communities that have been very left behind, that have not had investment, that have seen issues around unemployment. In Britain there is massive health inequality. 

In the richest areas compared to the poorest areas, life expectancy is something like 20 years difference. We’ve got big problems. And of course, we then see people like Farage blaming migrant people for all the ills of these left behind communities. We know that asylum seeking people tend to be housed in these deprived areas, in these deprived communities, which again, creates a sense of: Oh, well, they’re getting something. Why are they coming here? Why am I not getting what I want? There’s an awful lot of disinformation about what asylum seeking people actually get in the UK, for a start. 

Nigel Farage blamed migrant people for traffic jams. If there’s something that he can find them to blame, he will blame them. So you’ve seen this issue where people are very frustrated. They have very real grievances about inequality, about lack of investment, about failing societies, and then they are told —  or fed this kind of constant drip feed — that it’s the fault of the other, it’s the fault of migrant people, it’s the fault of asylum seeking people. So I think that’s why we saw violence in particularly deprived areas, and again, like places like Rotherham, which had this history of grooming gang scandals. 

But we also know that people like Douglas Murray, he’s not going to go to a protest, but he is going to go on a radio show and say things about: If the police don’t take hold of this, then the people will. We know that Nigel Farage isn’t going to go to Rotherham, but he was going to go and say: If you think this is bad, wait till you see what’s gonna  come next, cause Keir Starmer doesn’t have a clue. So while on the streets, we might have seen what looks like quite a clear demographic. That’s not the whole story. If there wasn’t this alliance of the elite and the mob, if we weren’t seeing the elite coming out with this messaging, saying that this is who’s to blame for your problems, this is who’s to blame for what has been done in your town, this is who’s to blame for disinvestment and poverty and inequality, and what are you going to do about it? Then these things wouldn’t necessarily happen quite in the same way. They might have happened, but the flip side of all of this is when we saw the anti-fascist protests, it’s a similar demographic, but more women and more Black and minority ethnic people. 

There’s been a real mobilization of pro-migrant, pro-human rights, anti-fascists coming out onto the streets and defending their communities. You know, as a woman from a working class background, I get very frustrated when it’s like: Oh, this is who you are. This is who the bad people are. No. It’s a mixed picture, but definitely mostly white men. And kids, which I think was the scary thing, kids. There’s been young, like teenagers, and children going out and with their parents shouting racist abuse and and that’s something that is really, really frightening. 

Sam Goldman  34:18

Yeah, for all that talk of “grooming,” the indoctrinating of youth in xenophobic hatred. I definitely want to loop back to the anti-fascist resistance in response. I did want to ask you about how this was developing before the Southport murders. What was the state of the British fascist movement, let’s say, on July 28? 

Sian Norris  34:41

I think it’s a really important question to ask. If anyone is listening, I would really recommend Paul Mason’s Substack, which answers this question probably way better than I am going to. First of all, it’s not a coincidence that this has happened after the Labor government was elected. For a long time, the far right in Britain has had not exactly allies in the government, but the government has been enacting things they like, they want to see. They’ve not been happy about it, because nothing will ever satisfy them, but the Conservative government was bringing in very, very hardline anti migrant policies, really pushing against any notion of human rights, denouncing the European Court for Human Rights, really kind of stoking a feeling that international law, international human rights norms, were not for us because we’re going after the migrants. So that’s an important piece of context. 

But yeah, the far right has been on the rise in the U.K. for the last decade. It had a kind of peak in 2009 and then it sort of went a bit quiet again, and then since Brexit, it’s definitely been emboldened — so since 2016. The way that this is mostly been played out is, first of all, through these, again, networked movements, through this growing of this shared ideology, through this kind of consistent talk about replacement, genocide. But also by protests outside hotels where asylum seeking people are being housed. The government has increasingly been housing migrant people in hotel accommodation at cost of like billions of pounds. No one is in favor of this policy. 

The pro-migrant organizations that I’m in constant contact with don’t think people should be held in hotels. The far right do not think people should be held in hotels. We just think it for different reasons. We’d often see these protests outside hotels. People would be picketing hotels. They’d go into the hotels and try and film people. When I reported on this a couple of years ago. It was one of the saddest incidents to me was Britain First was filming a hotel and a child was waving at the camera, and they described it as a child mocking them. And I was like, that’s how far you have dehumanized these children. Every child in the world waves at a camera because it’s like, that’s what you do. 

And yet they were like, this migrant is mocking us. That was their attitude about a child. I mean, I’ll never forget it, as long as I live. Even in Bristol, where I live, which is very left wing, last September, there was a protest outside one of the hotels. This has been really rising. The other aspect that in beginning of last year, so beginning of 2023, there was a riot in the Northwest outside one of the migrant hotels. This was triggered again by disinformation online that an Afghan asylum seeking man had sexually harassed a teenage girl. I imagine every single woman listening to this was sexually harassed as a teenage girl. I was sexually harassed by two white men in a car. It’s horrific, but it’s what happens to us. It’s got nothing to do with race. It’s got everything to do with men. 

But again, this narrative of these men coming over here, threatening our children, is what stoked up another riot, which happened on a smaller scale, but was still pretty serious. We’ve seen this pattern of violence. We’ve seen this pattern of protest, and we’ve seen the previous government pandering, in my view, to far right, anti-migrant ideas, and creating policies that deliver to that audience, and winking at them, if nothing else you know, saying: Yeah, okay, we’re going to do this, it’s for you. And now that we’ve got a Labor government — there is much to criticize them on in terms of their attitudes towards immigration.

I’m a labor voter, but I would always be a critical friend — but the first thing they did was scrap one of the major deterrent schemes for migrant people, this complete disaster called the Rwanda scheme. They’ve started processing asylum claims that were banned from being processed under the last government’s ludicrous illegal migration act. So they’ve started to undo some of the more draconian — I would say, also useless — anti-migrant legislation. I think the combination of that happening, these killings happening previous to that, we had an incident in an airport where there was police attacking some brown men, or sort of migrant men, and then it turned out that they’d also attacked the police — so there was a lot of kind of stuff going on around that, and people being like, oh, you know, they come over here, they attack our police, this kind of stuff.

There’s been a real both a long term uprising of attacks on migrant people, plus this kind of very recent toxic mix of attacks, the Labor government, the changes to migration policy, the sense that maybe they’re losing some of their control, some of their influence, and then the horrific killings of these children was the final spark. I also want to say, it absolutely breaks my heart, like I couldn’t even read the news about those girls, I was so upset. To think that their parents have had to lose their children and then do these statements about this violence, it’s like they should be left to grieve like left to have this moment where they can think about and remember their daughters. It makes me feel sick, to be honest, it really makes me very angry that the deaths of these children could be coopted and weaponized when all that should matter is their lives, their memories.

Sam Goldman  40:13

Absolutely. I think that, was it just a day ago or this week that one of the funerals is taking place for, I believe, one of the nine year old girls that was murdered. I did want to note that returning to the situation before the July 28 date, as someone living in the United States, many Americans look at the recent British elections and saw it as a victory; a model of unity against the far right. I think that there’s a lot to unpack there, but it’s also the notion that the elections are going to put all the fascists in a box and neatly tie a bow on the threat. This is a painful reminder of it.

There’s those like Alberto Toscano, who I thought wrote, well that seemed like the rabid racists in the Conservative Party were replaced by more reasonable racists of the Labor Party. But regardless of how you see that aspect, I think that it’s a really incisive reminder right now, that an election alone model isn’t resolving the root of the threat, and you have to actually get at the root of the fascist threat in order to move anything forward. I think that while Americans might have some difficulty doing that, the people of Britain have shown otherwise in terms of their response to this fascist violence coming and really pouring out into the streets in heroic ways, and you spoke about some of that, but I wanted to give you the opportunity to tell us a little bit more about all that.

Again, I’m going to give the U.S. example, because a good chunk of our listeners are from the United States, in that we’re often told by upstanding liberals here that fighting fascism only helps the fascists, that confronting fascism feeds fear and chaos. I think what we’ve seen so clearly in this moment in Britain is that the fascists can do it all on their own. They are the violence, and they’re simultaneously claiming that they are the answer to violence. In Britain, we’ve seen the anti-fascists not cede the streets. I just would love to hear your thoughts on all of this and what lessons we can all learn?

Sian Norris  42:22

That made me patriotic for a moment, Britain has a proud anti-fascist heritage. We kicked the Black Shirts out of Cable Street in the 1930s. In Bristol, where the riot took place, there’s a plaque commemorating the Bristolians that went and fought in Spain against the fascism in the 1930s. I thought it was ironic that the riot was taking place where that plaque is. I think it’s absolutely fundamental that we go out and put our bodies in the way of the far right. To be fair, I didn’t, because I was getting a lot of threats on Twitter, and I just felt very visible, and I just didn’t feel safe going out and potentially being spotted. It was a difficult decision.

My friend said, you don’t have to do everything. I was like: No, I don’t, I can stay home. So on Wednesday, the seventh of August, there was a list going around far right channels saying that there were all these targets. Immigration lawyers, asylum seeking people’s, NGOs, places that are like pro-migration, supportive of migrant people, and hotels, they were on this list. We’re not an anti-fascist movement. This isn’t like an organized left wing group, TM, that all kind of communicated and you know. It was just: Okay if you believe in supporting migrant people, if you believe in the rights of asylum seeking people, if you want to stand in solidarity with Black and minority ethnic people who are under attack, let’s just get out. Let’s go out onto the streets. And so last Wednesday in Bristol, there were about 1500 anti-fascist people on the streets.

Everyone that told me about it was like a party, like everybody was just there, being positive, you know, chatting, like making sure that the fascists could not get to the immigration lawyers that they were trying to target. In Walthamstow, in North London, just thousands of people doing the same. Even on the first day of the riot in Bristol, the anti-fascist pro migrant people formed like a human shield in front of the hotel housing migrant people to protect it from these fascist protesters and far right rioters. We really did see a huge mobilization of solidarity, an upsurge in solidarity, I think, in some ways — and it sometimes is like this — something awful has to happen for people to realize that there is a threat, that that you need to stand up, you need to show that you care. I feel like that really did happen.

I think it’s important not to be too self-congratulatory. These far right riots happened. Those people went out and they smashed up cars, and they tried to attack migrant people and they set fire to hotels. Just because we did a good job in repelling them doesn’t mean we should be like: Oh, wow, there’s no problem here — because that is a problem. In terms of electoral politics, I’m a labor voter. For me, it is better that Labor is in power and that we’ve got rid of this conservative government that was really pushing on anti migrant legislation. I mean, coming up with laws that were just… the Rwanda scheme was designed to remove people from the UK and to force them to live in Rwanda and pay money to do that. It was just the most horrendous scheme. People who have no ties to Rwanda, no ties to East Africa, being sent to a country that they have not really consented to go to.

So lots of really awful policy making and decision making. It is good that the majority government is now not doing that, but also that we saw majority votes for progressive parties — so for labor, for the Green Party, and for the Scottish National Party. The flip side is that we saw more votes than ever before for Reform UK, which is Nigel Farage’s party, a hard right party, and that this hard right party came second to labor in some areas of the UK, particularly very deprived areas. While our electoral system means that they only got five MPs and Labor got hundreds, there is this real sense that votes that weren’t there before for the hard right are there now.

It’s not just that we have to get out on the streets in the face of these riots and put our bodies in the way of the far right, and put our bodies in the way of fascism. It’s also that the government and the decision makers and the people who have power need to put in policies that diffuse this hate, and that means everything from being much more strict about the sort of social media atmosphere, like, how do we actually stop the spread of this violence? How do we stop the spread of this hate? But also we need to undo 14 years of conservative austerity, which means that these areas with a prominent sort of hard right and far right presence have better investment, have schools that aren’t falling down, can access health care — like health inequality can be changed.

So that if we have a government that is actually willing to invest in a better society, the hate that has been allowed to foster and been whipped up by those who aren’t willing to invest will start to diffuse, and we can start looking towards a more hopeful and hopefully a more equal future. But that is going to take political will and a lot of work, and we as an anti-fascist, pro-human rights, pro-migrant, pro-immigration, pro-LGBT, pro-feminism movement, have to be putting the pressure on to say: We want you to make this happen. We want an end to this hate. And we know that that means investing in communities.

Sam Goldman  47:51

What is the status right now of both the violence and the pro-human response? Where do things stand right now?

Sian Norris  48:01

The threatened violence on that Wednesday with the list of targets didn’t really materialize, because everybody went out and was like: Get out of our town. So that was good. There’s been a massive police mobilization. So a lot of people have been arrested for attacking emergency workers, property damage, arson, attempted assaults. The sort of crimes that took place over those few days are being managed. Again, there’ll be a debate to be had, like carceral versus non carceral response. What is the best way to deal with this.

But as it stands, people are going to prison. What the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, says, and justice minister, Shabana Mahmoud. I mean, the far right are not happy that the Justice Minister is a Muslim feminist, for a start, that’s again, another thing to think about in terms of the changing political landscape. But they’re very clear that if you committed these crimes, if you took part in this writing, then you will face justice — and using that as a deterrent. So if you are looking on Twitter and you’re seeing that that guy’s gone to prison for three years because he attacked an emergency worker, then the idea is you’re not going to go out and do the same thing.

Of course, we have a prisons crisis, so that’s a whole other issue. It does feel like this kind of delivery of swift justice, whatever one’s views on the criminal justice system, is designed as a deterrent, and is working as a deterrent. And I think, as I say, from our standpoint, there has to just be a continued mobilization and a continued education on human rights and on supporting migrant communities and understanding in solidarity with Black and minority ethnic people and communities. As I mentioned earlier in this interview, a lot of people don’t even understand the asylum policy in this country — which is fine, like, why would you, it’s never going to affect you — but we do need to understand it in order to counter the disinformation and the myths and the hate that is is shared around.

In my role as a journalist, I’ve reported on immigration issue for years, and always feel like I’m trying to do some of that education work, but also that work of humanizing communities that have been dehumanized. That’s the role now. And also supporting the NGOs, supporting crowd-funders for people who had their businesses smashed up. There’s a Syrian shop in Northern Ireland that was just smashed up, it’s heartbreaking. So those are the sort of two sides of the coin.

Sam Goldman  50:25

One of the things that I admire about your writing, consistently, is that you you see the world as a whole, and you make connections between what’s happening in one place and what’s happening in another — the interconnectedness of both those who wish us harm, but also those of us that are part of the species of human beings. I wanted to give you the opportunity to talk about any other projects that you’re working on. You have your book. I don’t know if there’s anything that you want to talk about in terms of that which also talks about the interconnectedness, or any other upcoming projects. Or just things that you think people who are concerned about the fascist threat should be paying attention to. I just wanted to give you an opportunity.

Sian Norris  51:09

Yeah, sure. I also wanted to say, in terms of the interconnectedness, is that we do need to see the far right as an interconnected movement. Like, why is Elon Musk trolling the British prime minister? It’s surreal. These people are organizing and communicating across borders. My mentions are just full at the moment of American, far right — I’m assuming some of them are Russian bots — but some of them are clearly also American [laughs]. That kind of interconnectedness is happening on their side, and it’s why we absolutely need a global movement of anti-fascist solidarity. One of the things I talk about a lot and write about a lot is obviously about abortion, and the far right threat to abortion.

When we look at the threats to abortion here in the Global North, we need to be looking to the work of the women in the global south who are actually winning this fight, getting laws overturned, creating spaces, creating networks to provide abortion and medical care to women. We need to be a more intersectional, more interconnected and more global movement, because we are facing that as the threat. But yeah, in terms of projects, I’ve recently joined Open Democracy as their senior investigative reporter.

So I started that in November. I’m really looking a lot at immigration, unsurprisingly, looking at the militarization of borders, looking at how different countries are managing migration, implementing harmful policies, but also looking at solutions. So that’s been really exciting. And yeah, ‘Bodies Under Siege’ came out just over a year ago, and hopefully we are planning a paperback release. We’re waiting for the U.S. election to see if that requires a new forward for the book. But I’m really excited about the paperback release, and I’m supposed to be working on a new book, so we shall see how that goes.

Sam Goldman  53:04

We have linked in the show notes to Sian’s Great Replacement and Boogaloo, the ideology driving the modern far right, of course, the topic of this interview. But we’ve also linked in the show notes to Sian’s author page on Open Democracy. So if you want to read more, you can check that we also have ‘Bodies Under Siege’ linked, so you can get the book in the show notes. If people read the book and go on Open Democracy and are still like, I want to hear more from Sian. Where do you want to direct them to you?

Sian Norris  53:41

Do I want to direct people to Twitter? I don’t know. I mean, I am on Twitter, and I’m still on Twitter @sianushka, so yeah, if you want to follow me on Twitter, but also if you are running very fast away from Twitter, I understand. Thank you so much for providing such a comprehensive list of links. I really appreciate that.

Sam Goldman  54:01

I want to thank you so much Sian for taking the time to speak with me, to share with us what’s happening, what’s fueling it, and just really appreciate your expertise and your perspective on this issue.

Sian Norris  54:15

Thank you so much for having me.

Sam Goldman  54:17

Of course, take care.

Sam Goldman  54:22

Recently, someone commented on a retweet of a Substack post by EB Stoddard titled: Get ready now, Republicans will refuse to certify a Harris win, Trumpist county election officials are preparing to throw the process into chaos. Writing: “We keep reading: We should be ready. But aside from knowing it will happen, what more can someone do?” W think this question is just so on target, and we’ll be devoting time to talk about this over our next several episodes of the pod.

One thing we can say for sure right now, is that having networks and communities of people wrangling with this now makes all the difference, including specifically to quickly mobilize actions that bring society to a halt through nonviolent, massive, sustained protests if Trump and the MAGA Republicans take power in 2025 or make moves to overturn the election results. So again, stay tuned for more on this, and keep asking questions.

Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. Want to help this show reach more people when it’s needed most? Amazing. As people rightly agonize over the fascist threat, help grow the community we need by literally wearing refuse fascism across your chest, by purchasing one or more of our t-shirts. When you buy the shirt, you are also helping produce and promote, promote the show. See the show notes to get your shirt today. Remember, patrons, you get a discount when it arrives, please, please, take a selfie or pic of your crew all wearing your shirts and tag Refuse Fascism to spread the word. Yeah, I forgot to say post it on social media. So take a selfie or pic of your crew all wearing your shirts, post it on the socials, and tag @RefuseFascism to spread the word.

If you want to take a step further, become a patron for as little as $2 a month over at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism. It all makes a difference in producing and promoting this independent, all volunteer weekly podcast. We’ll be having our next Patron only event next month September. So patrons, please fill out the poll on our Patreon page to let us know what you’re interested in. Thanks for your support. And if you can’t give now, or if you do every month as a patron or sustainer, share the show with others, rate and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen or comment on our social posts or YouTube uploads. It makes a difference. It really does, and it’s so appreciated.

And of course, follow/subscribe wherever you listen, so you never miss an episode. As always, we love hearing from you, so find us on social media @RefuseFascism on YouTube, Refuse_Fascism. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if YouTube is your thing. Or leave us a voicemail. See the link in the show notes. If you want to reach me. So glad. Reach me at Twitter, @SamBGoldman, drop me a line at [email protected] or on the tiktoks @SamGoldmanRF.

Thanks to Mark Tinkleman, Richie Marini and Lina Thorne for helping produce this episode. And thanks to incredible volunteers, we have transcripts available for each show, so be sure to visit RefuseFascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox. Until next Sunday ,In the Name of Humanity, We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America!