Preparing for a Coup: What’s changed, What Hasn’t

Refuse Fascism Episode 221

Sun, Oct 13, 2024 6:45PM • 55:45

Nick Quested  00:00

​I think we’re going to see a similar playbook to “stop the steal” again. I think we’re going to see poll workers and election workers creating pretexts for protests. We’re going to see protests outside of narrow swing state victories. We’re going to see Trump refusing to accept the election results if he loses. We’re going to see state legislators and boards of electors refusing to certify precincts, counties, states. We’re going to see alternate slates of electors. We’re going to see a flurry of spurious lawsuits. State capitals are very soft targets compared to the nation’s capital. I think we’re standing at a moment where we face exactly the same challenges in exactly the same way, and we haven’t learned from any of this.​​

Sam Goldman  00:57

Welcome to episode 221 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States. 

In today’s episode, we are sharing an interview with Nick Quested, Director of 64 Days: The Insurrectionist Playbook. Help us reach more listeners at a time when refusing fascism is needed more than ever. After you listen to the show, be sure to share it with others. Click the Share button in your app to send this episode to a friend, or ten, or let the world know why you listen by rating and reviewing on Apple podcast or your listening platform of choice. Wear the imperative by donning a Refuse Fascism t-shirt that kicks off conversations, and kicks in to making this all volunteer, independent weekly podcast possible — see the show notes to get yours. 

Thanks as well to the patrons who helped make this show possible. We were so glad to have a meaningful discussion with some of you today regarding the War Game film. Join the community over at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism.

Before we get to the interview, I want to touch on some developments. This past Friday, the Department of Justice filed suit against the state of Virginia for purging registered voters from the voter rolls. This comes on the heels of a similar suit against Alabama. In both cases, Republican led states have chosen to remove thousands of names from the voter registry in the run up to a heavily contested election in direct defiance of the National Voter Registration Act. 

The Supreme Court has muddled the waters on when and how state legislatures can change election rules in order to uphold reactionary changes and bar those which increase access to the polls. But that is separate from the federal rules governing voter registration, which are crystal clear: Voters cannot be removed from the rolls en masse within ninety days of an election.

In Alabama’s case, by the end of September, seven hundred of those removed for allegedly not being citizens had already re-registered with verified citizenship, exposing how egregiously wrong Republicans’ claims of illegal or ineligible voters are. Likewise, in Virginia, Tierney Sneed at CNN reported “Earlier iterations of the program caused likely citizens to be removed from the rolls, the DOJ alleged in its lawsuit, pointing to recent comments by a county election official who said that they looked at dozens of voters who had been purged under the program’s protocols, and found that many of them had repeatedly affirmed their citizenship, including some with social security numbers.” 

This comes on top of numerous Republican-controlled states from Louisiana to Ohio taking new measures to aggressively cut their voter rolls, with Texas Governor Greg Abbott even bragging that his state had removed over one million people from voter eligibility through a range of tactics. Other Republican states have long-standing measures to cull anyone who hasn’t voted for a few years from their rolls, leading to tens of thousands regularly being stripped of their rights for no legitimate reason. 

All of this is geared towards two aims. First is restricting voting rights, generally and specifically, the rights of those who Republicans view as enemies — with these tactics largely affecting naturalized citizens, poor people, people of color and people in urban areas. Second is to undermine the election results in advance, stoking fears of illegal voting, when an extensive body of social research and findings by numerous American courts agree that such events are exceedingly rare, often accidental in the rare instances when they do happen, and do not include undocumented people, and are incapable of swaying an election. However, as with immigration, fascist propaganda has pushed this deluded concern to the top of the list of a majority of voters, including significant numbers of Democrats.

So speaking of disinformation, we’ve got to talk about Elon Musk. In the direct aftermath of Trump’s January 6 coup attempt, he was not arrested. He was not charged with a single crime for years. He was impeached, but not convicted by the Senate. The main material consequence he immediately received was being banned from Twitter, and that did seem to have significant impact. It doesn’t seem likea coincidence that the current owner of Twitter, now X, going into the 2024 election, is one of Trump’s most powerful and now most zealous supporters. 

Elon Musk is now the wealthiest person in the world, according to Forbes — and if this hasn’t caused you to at least question capitalism, I don’t know what could. Musk is widely known in connection to electric cars and the ownership of Twitter (X) but there is a strong argument that he is, first and foremost, a defense contractor, aka war profiteer. That fact alone should make it clear that this is a man proficient in disinformation, and he is using everything at his disposal to get Donald Trump back into the White House. 

He has set up his own war room in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which he sees as the key state to Trump winning the Electoral College, where the New York Times reports he has brought together, “a team of lawyers, public relations professionals, canvassing experts and longtime friends,” with the sole purpose of getting Trump back into power. Through his Trump-supporting political action committee named America PAC, he has reportedly spent between $140 and $180 million in this effort over the course of just a few months. In addition to ads and canvassing and other schemes, he is literally just paying people to support Trump. 

The strategy is to get people to sign and share a so called “petition” — which more resembles a data harvesting scheme — supporting his views on free speech and gun rights, and then paying those who refer others to do the same — $47 for the 47th president. Simultaneously, he’s beenaggressively using Twitter to censor information damaging to Trump and those who report it, on top of his more protracted strategy of transforming one of the most widely used and most influential social media platforms into an echo chamber of fascist disinformation. 

Through this multi-pronged strategy, he has used billions of dollars to make himself into something of a public intellectual of the worst kind, where his fascist screeds about”free speech” and support of fascist conspiracy theories echo through the pages of major publications, fringe websites and social media conversations alike. He could not have done this on his own. He has seized on the United States’ increasingly vapid, sycophantic public discourse spanning the political spectrum that is commonly a cultural prerequisite for the ascent of fascism. 

The basic strategy of using unfathomable amounts of cruelly exploited profits to fuel popular mass movements of hateful idiots is a well worn strategy of fascists here and around the world, but we are witnessing that strategy unfold in a fashion that is unprecedented in scope, impact and shamelessness. This is incredibly dangerous in terms of influencing election outcomes and whatever comes next.

Just weeks away from the election, Donald “poison the blood of the country,” Trump goes hard on the animating lifeblood of this MAGA fascist movement — xenophobic bigotry against non-white migrants and asylum seekers — which, let’s be clear, is nothing short of genocidal racism against all non-white people. Trump has ramped up his hateful rhetoric, preparing the ground for murderous and genocidal policies. 

And, to be real, there is an intolerable lack of vocal, meaningful defense of immigrants, let alone commensurate resistance. Further attacks on and demonization of immigrants are the bread and butter of literally every public appearance by Trump and Vance, and run ad nauseam on the fascist news network Fox and across social media, whipping millions into this anti-immigrant frenzy. A cornerstone pledge of Trump’s return to power is that he will forcibly deport eleven million undocumented people and put them in concentration camps until they can be deported, with his new promise to deport over a million legal immigrants, particularly people from Haiti and Venezuela. On reactionary Hugh Hewitt’s radio show, Trump said this:

Donald Trump  09:50

“How about allowing people to come to an open border, 13,000 of which were murderers, many of them murdered far more than one person, and they’re now happily living in the United States. You know now a murderer — I believe this — it’s in their genes, and we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now.”

Sam Goldman  10:08

Straight up Nazi, yes, and straight up American as apple pie.Eugenics was rampant across the political spectrum in the United States in the first half of the 20th century, with extensive funding from Carnegie, Rockefeller and Kellogg and the ear of a number of U.S. presidents, to detrimental effects, restricting the rights of non white peoples in the U.S. and barring entry to the U.S. people from Africa and Asia, alongside extensive sterilization campaigns of non white peoples and the disabled community. 

The assault on immigrants is the linchpin and battering ram of this regime’s whole fascist program, galvanizing millions into a white supremacist base that is prepared to endorse and carry out atrocities. We have to talk about Trump’s Klanrally in Aurora, Colorado this week: Xenophobic vitriol so toxic that even the city’s right-wing Mayor condemned it as lie-filled and dangerous, an event inculcating their storm troopers in blood libel, in the language of war, of genocide, “invasion,” “infestation,” the words of the day. 

Trump has repeatedly claimed, amplifying during his first and only debate with Harris, that Venezuelan gangs have taken over Aurora and are extorting local Americans. No, if you are wondering, this isn’t based on any evidence, but is based instead on a video which made its rounds all over social media, promoted by an out of state landlord company. But undeterred by reality, Trump and the Republi-fascists are committed to using such claims to further attack immigrants, sow doubt in the election, and lay the framework for fascist dictatorship. 

Prior to the rally, Trump posted a campaign video targeting immigrants and Harris for overseeing the so called “invasion.” In all caps across the scare video read: “America is being invaded! End the occupation!  Liberate America!” Then there was the rally itself. In front of the now Trump trademark backdrop declaring in all caps, of course: “End Migrant Crime! Deport Illegals Now!” With enlargements of images of hypothetically incarcerated immigrants with: “Occupied America! The gang members of Aurora” as props.For hours, you heard Trump reiterate that immigrants were animals, that immigrants were “coming in sick with highly infectious diseases,” reiterating calls to ban sanctuary cities, all on top of his core promise to carry out the largest deportation in history. Let’s start with what zombie Goebbels, Stephen Miller, had to say:

Stephen Miller  12:38

[crowd cheering]…and the patriots in this room are going to be the ones who elect President Trump to end the invasion, to end the occupation, and to send the illegals back home. [louder cheer] Look at all these photos around me. Are these the kids you grew up with? [crowd responds: No] Are these the neighbors you were raised with? [No] Are these the neighbors that you want in your city? [No] No, these are the criminal migrants that Kamala Harris brought into your community, [crowd boos] and as swiftly as they came, Donald Trump will send them back. [cheers]

Sam Goldman  13:25

This is fascism at work on people through fomenting racism by portraying a group of people as less than human and opening the way for racist attacks and government action to remove them. Here is what Trump said, much of which later got distilled into social posts reaching tens of millions and further amplified by Elon Musk:

Donald Trump  13:45

And they’re rapists. Okay. So I made that statement, and I got hell knocked out of me by the fake news. Look how many you have back there. [crowd boos] Oh, I got the hell knocked… [boos escalate] But I took a lot of heat for saying it. But I was right, and now everybody is admitting that I wasright. You know, they… Trump was… How many times have you heard that? You know: When Trump ran, he made those statements. Those statements are peanuts compared to what’s happening to our country. These are the worst criminals in the world. Kamala used to say, can’t say it anymore: You know, the people were bringing in are very nice people, they don’t commit crime. Remember? Our criminals are worse. Our criminals are like babies compared to these people. These people are the most violent people on Earth. And remember, they don’t come just from South America. They come from the Congo in Africa. They come from all over the world. They come from the Middle East, they come from Asia, they come from prisons and jails. They come from all over the world. And she was saying: These arevery nice people. Either she’s really dumb or she’s very naive. Something’s wrong, something’s wrong up there.

Sam Goldman  14:58

And if you are someone who cares about facts: Are there 13,000 migrant murderers roaming free? No. The majority of non-detained migrants, convicted of homicide, are in custody. They just may not be held by ICE. Many migrants detained on charges of homicide in the United States committed the alleged crime outside of this country, but were apprehended by U.S. officials. And again, for the umpteenth time, actual data shows that migrants, documented or not, are significantly less likely to commit crimes than us born citizens. Trump went on:

Donald Trump  15:31

Imported army of illegal alien gang members and migrant criminals from [elevates tone] the dungeons [crowd boos] of the Third World. They come from the dungeons — think of that — the dungeons of the Third World. From prisons and jails, insane asylums and mental institutions. And she has had them resettled beautifully into your community [elevates tone] to prey upon innocent American citizens. That’s what they’re doing.

Sam Goldman  16:01

And then he announced Operation Aurora:

Donald Trump  16:03

I’m announcing today that upon taking office, we will have an Operation Aurora at the federal level [crowd cheers] to expedite the removals of these savage gangs. And I will invoke the alien enemies act of 1798 — Think of that, 1798, this was put there. 1798, yeah that’s a long time ago, right — to target and dismantle every migrant criminal network operating on American soil. Who would have ever thought that a president or future president, would ever have to stand here and say such thing? 

Sam Goldman  16:41

Yes, Trump plans to now use the Alien Enemies Act of 1798 along with the Insurection Act of 1807 to deploy the military on American streets to suppress dissent and target migrants.He is boasting his fascist plot. So let’s back up. What is the Alien Enemies Act of 1798? It’s a wartime authority that allows the president to unilaterally deploy federal law enforcement to detain or deport the natives and citizens of “An enemy nation.” It can be and has been wielded against immigrants who have done nothing wrong and those who are in the country legally. It was the law used to justify interment of people of Japanese descent in World War II, where 120,000 people were put in U.S. concentration camps.It could be implemented as soon as he enters office. 

The Republi-fascists are fighting for an interpretation of the law, taking creative license with what’s meant by invasion and predatory incursion to mean unlawful border crossings, and for those involved in drug cartels or criminal gangs to be considered a “foreign nation or government.” Let’s consider this: Do you really think this would be stopped by his pals on the Supreme Court? So, yeah, this is ominous as all fuck. And you might wonder, how will he be able to achieve this? Well, listen to this:

Donald Trump  18:07

Elite squads of ICE, Border Patrol and federal law enforcement officers to hunt down, arrest and deport every last illegal alien gang member [crowd cheers] until there is not a single one left in this country, [elevates tone] and if they come back into our country, they will be told it is an automatic ten-year sentence in jail [building cheers] with no possibility of parole. And I’m hereby calling for the death penalty for any migrant that kills an American citizen [more cheers] or a law enforcement officer.

Sam Goldman  18:46

And more on how he will round up and deport the tens of millions he is pledging:

Donald Trump  18:50

With your vote, we will achieve complete and total victory over these sadistic monsters. It’s going to go very quickly. Remember, our local police, they’re great. I know them so well. They’ve been restricted from operating. They’re great. They know everything about every one of them. They say: Oh, how will you ever find them? The local police know everyone. They know their middle names. They know their serial numbers. Where they live. Nooo, and they want to do their job, they’re done. You have no idea how many police officers say: Sir, we’re going to indemnify them against any prosecutions.

Sam Goldman  19:23

He took this occasion to let it be known that he will not be typecast as only a pussy-grabbing misogynist. No, this patriarchal shit has range. He can also be a patronizing and paternalizing misogynist while still centralizing the white supremacy.

Donald Trump  19:40

Your community will no longer live in fear. You will once again, have a protector in the White House. [modified tone] I’m going to be a protector. [smattering of approval from crowd] You know, I said, I think we’re doing very well with women. We’re doing great in the polls. [women cheer] We’rewinning in all of the polls, just about. But somebody said, Women love my policy, but they don’t like me. I think they do like me, I tell you what. [women cheer] So they said, and Isaid, a week ago, I said, I think women like me because I will be your protector, and I protected you for four years.

Sam Goldman  20:17

Protection? Right? from a rapist, a sadistic fuck, who has orchestrated our suffering, our terror, our entrapment and our deaths with the overturn of Roe. He leaned in hard to his Klan rally roots. He could have literally put up the 14 words or screened Birth of a Nation. As Maya Ward wrote for Politico: “Trump’s message in Aurora, a city that has become a central part of his campaign speeches in the final stretch to Election Day, marks another example of how the former president has escalated his xenophobic and racist rhetoric against migrants and minority groups he says are genetically predisposed to commit crimes. The supposed threat migrants pose is the core part of the former president’s closing argument as he promises his base that he’s the one who can save the country from a group of people he calls ‘animals,’ ‘Stone Cold killers,’ ‘worst people’and the ‘enemy from within.'” 

So, immediately after the speech and after Trump posted this outright threat via X (Twitter), viewed by 27 million people, reading: “I will rescue Aurora and every town that has been invaded and conquered, and we will put these vicious and bloodthirsty criminals in jail or kick them the hellOUT OF OUR COUNTRY.” (That was in caps, that last part, in case you didn’t realize it.) Going on to say: “No person who has inflicted the violence and terror that Kamala Harris has inflicted on this community can EVER be allowed to become President of the United States!” 

So, after that, Kamala jetted to Aurora, Colorado. After doing a tour to Haitian businesses and the Haitian community in Springfield, Ohio, she gave a stirring uncompromising speech that immigrants are full human beings and will be provided additional protection from unhinged white supremacists. Of course, not! No! She hasn’t gone to either place. 

Instead, she has taken the opportunity to tout her $20 billion border security bill that contains no pathway to citizenship, brags about hiring more border agents in this bill, and proudly reminds us that it was co written by one of the most conservative members of the Senate. This assault on migrants is not separate from the coup attempt already in motion, this lexicon of violence, the disinformation campaign, is all part of this rolling coup. In military lingo, it’s setting the theater; preparing the operational area for the execution of the strategic plan. 

In other words, enabling conditions. Yes, it is about intimidating people of color from voting. Yes, it is about laying the basis for further attacks on the voting rights of people of color. But it is also about hardening, expanding and coalescing the fascist movement for, if necessary, the violent seizure of power, and the violence necessary to enact every aspect of this fascist program, including the mass rounding up and deportation of over ten million people. Immigrants are full human beings, not criminals to be demonized, hunted down, terrorized, locked up and thrown out. Now, not waiting for later or some better time, we must show our determination to stand up for our immigrant siblings. 

Speaking of shitstorms, this past Wednesday and Thursday, Florida was ravaged by the second major hurricane in as many weeks, with 17 confirmed deaths, widespread flooding, millions without power, and extraordinary damage across the state, including from a novel string of intense tornadoes, which scientists fear may become a more common feature of future global warming fueled hurricanes. Hurricane Milton broke records for rainfall and rapid Intensification, but Florida’s fascist Governor Ron DeSantis, who banned mention of climate change from state government websites this past May had other concerns, namely, suing TV stations for running ads supporting Amendment 4, a ballot measure which could restore abortion access across the state.

As Melissa Gira Grant reported for the New Republic: “In the weeks leading up to the election, marshaling state agencies in service of defeating The abortion rights ballot measure DeSantis has spread health misinformation, threatened news organizations and attempted to intimidate voters.” He used an appearance serving food to survivors of Hurricane Helene to stump for his abortion ban. He’s used the newly created website of Florida’s health department to campaign against amendment four. 

This comes after DeSantis used the Florida Department of State to investigate the petition that led to amendment for his presence on the ballot, and sent state police to the homes of people who signed that petition to interrogate them. These intimidation tactics are venturing into new territory, but should also be shedding light on the ways the suppression of dissent in many so called red states are. Reached far beyond what many in coastal bubbles believe ispossible in their illusory United States of freedom. This repression has helped consolidate fascist power in many of these states, and has provided extensive proving grounds for taking such tactics nationwide. 

While we don’t have time today to discuss the death threats meteorologists have faced because of the reporting on hurricane Milton, I want to encourage you to take a momentto read “I’m running out of ways to explain how bad this is” by Charlie Warsel. It’s about what’s happening in America as something much, much darker than a misinformation crisis. He writes this piece for The Atlantic, and I’m going to share a quote from it. “Nothing less than a cultural assault on any person or institution that operates in reality, if you are a weather person, you’re a target. The same goes for journalists, election workers, scientists, doctors and first responders. These jobs are different, but the thing they share is that they all must attend to and describe the world as it is.

This makes them dangerous to people who cannot abide by the agonizing constraints of reality, as well as those who have financial and political interests in keeping up the charade. In one sense, these attacks and their increased desperation make sense. The world feels dark for many people. It’s tempting to meet that with a retreat into the delusion that they’ve got everything figured out, that the powers that be have conspired against them directly, but in turning away, they exacerbate a crisis that has characterized the Trump era, one that will reverberate to Election Day and beyond. Americans are divided not just by political beliefs, but by whether they believe in a shared reality or desire one at all.” 

They called November a “last stand” moment for the U.S., praying for Trump’s return to power. Religious scholar Matthew D. Taylor, who attended the event as part of research, was quoted saying, “this is about activating the most ardent Christian supporters of Donald Trump, putting them into an apocalyptic mindset that says this election is due or die for America. The danger is that these folks can easily be converted over into Capitol rioters if the right circumstances come about and if their leaders give them that guidance.” In a Twitter thread linked to the show notes, Matthew noted that Cahn got up to make a apostolic decree, reprising his speech from January 5, 2021, channeling the spiritual imagery and rhetoric that fueled Christian national violence on January 6.

So be sure to see the show notes for the link and check it out this week. Shane Goldmacher, writing for the New York Times, reported on the anti-trans element of the 2024 Republican campaign. The GOP has spent over $65 million on ads specifically targeting trans people, “exposing” their democratic adversaries for doing the bare minimum on trans rights and essentially claiming that, quote, unquote, they them are coming for your kids. While this was central to their 2022 campaign, it has generally been overshadowed by immigrant bashing this past year, a number of media outlets and Democratic strategists have pointed out that this generally hasn’t been a successful campaign strategy in the past, but this once more, misses the point that the fascists aren’t just campaigning for office, but to radically change society. 

The article quoted Kelly Robinson, president of the Human Rights Campaign, in reference to the GOP ads featuring images of Jonathan Van Ness saying “coming after a renowned celebrity star that people love and adore, that has been in our living room for years doesn’t seem like the right strategy to win hearts and minds.” What is missed here is that Republicans aren’t campaigning to merely win a few more votes or even to ban trans women from sports or bathrooms or any other particular demand as heinous as they are, they’ll leave that to Democrats like Colin Allred, who are themselves running anti trans ads. 

The Fascists are building a movement to create a society where a non-binary person cannot be a renowned celebrity star beamed into our living rooms or even walk down the street. For that matter, a society where gender roles are not merely propped up by tradition social pressure or family, butenforced directly from the state. 

To do this, the little image of someone like Jonathan Van Ness, whose look largely reflects traditional white beauty standards must be stigmatized, must come to represent ugliness and evil in the imaginations of their followers. Speaking of evil, yesterday on Yom Kippur, thousands of Christian nationalists gathered on the National Mall in Washington, D.C. for the New Apostolic Reformation spectacle that was the Million Women March, supposedly held to pray for America’s atonement for the sins of the very existence of trans people, abortion, LGBTQ rights and recognition and obviously, feminism. 

Jonathan Cahn  29:43

I’m decreeing this by faith. I believe when Jonathan Cahn says that Trump is a type of Jehu and Kamala Harris is a type of Jezebel. And as you know, Jehu cast out Jezebel. I took one of the stones and I went to a. Over the edge, and I threw that stone into the trash can because it was a prophetic act for me, because I’m ready to make this decree.So I decree in Jesus’ mighty name, and I decree it by faith that Trump will win on November the fifth, he will be our 47th president, and Kamala Harris will be cast out as she willlose in Jesus’ mighty name. Now give him a shout. Offer of faith. Come on, let’s declare this.

Sam Goldman  30:28

For those unfamiliar with Jezebel’s end in the Bible, Matthew points out that Cahn invokes it just veiled enough to be deniable spiritual assassination order on Kamala Harris. Recommend for those who want to learn more about this, that they go and read coverage from Mike Hixenbaugh, which is listed in the show notes.  In the run-up to the 2024 election, we hosted a Patreon discussion about the film War Game, which focuses on a hypothetical plot to overturn the results of the upcoming election on the day Congress certifies those results, January 6, 2025.

We’re running an interview today with someone who was embedded with the Proud Boys in the lead up to and on the day of January 6, 2021.  At a certain point in this interview, Nick Quested says he doesn’t expect there to be another January 6 this time around, and in that he agree with him. This will not be a repeat of four years ago. The situation has developed far past that. For one thing, there’s a strong possibility Trump will win the Electoral College or even win outright, and if he doesn’t, there is a reason to expect the coup he attempts will be far more sophisticated and more violent, likely more successful, with more “legitimate” forces involved than crackpot attorneys, paramilitaries and largely unorganized religious fanatics and Q-Anon believers.

There is ample evidence that this time, he will have the full weight of the Republican Party. So why this focus on January 6? Because there are concrete lessons to be learned from the events that transpired. Regardless of where things develop this time around, it’s likely they will kick off with some of the same elements, some of which we’re already seeing because the institutions of American liberal democracy barely held the first time around, and for the most part, have only become more susceptible because fascism is still reliant on conspiratorial, racist, patriarchal and xenophobic mob violence, and American fascism in particular is still steeped in the history of the Confederacy and enmeshed with rabid pursuit of Christian theocracy, all of which we saw vividly come to life on January 6, 2021.

And lastly, because the reality of January 6 broke through the thick web of American delusions that such things could not happen here, even as various liberal and fascist mythologies have tried to reintegrate those events into their narratives. The reality is plainly there for anyone with eyes willing to see with that orientation. Here’s my interview with Nick Quested 

Today. I am excited to speak with Nick Quested about his new film, 64 Days, an account of the days leading up to and on the January 6 insurrection with never before seen footage, and really a stark warning about what we face this November. The film premiered at Cinema Village in New York. It will be screened at the Woodstock Film Festival on October 15. 

Nick is an Emmy Award-winning documentary filmmaker who founded the indie film company Goldcrest and embedded himself with the Proud Boys in the weeks after Trump lost the 2020 election as part of a project to delve into division in America. I wanted to share with y’all a quote that I thought said a lot about Nick’s film. It was from Nick Schager, an entertainment critic for The Daily Beast, who described the film as “it demonstrates with harrowing, up close and personal insightfulness, that scheme was far from a spontaneous expression of outrage. On the contrary, it was planned and orchestrated by Trump and his political and white nationalist allies,” and stated “64 days embeds viewers with the Proud Boys and authors a chilling warning at how Trump plans to “stop the steal again.” Welcome Nick, thank you for joining Refuse Fascism.

Nick Quested  34:23

Well, thank you for having me.

Sam Goldman  34:24

First off, can you tell us a little bit more about how this film came about? I know that you were working about a story about division. Maybe you could tell us more just how did this come about, and then how did it change into something very different?

Nick Quested  34:40

It started with a conversation with Sebastian and I on the Cape early in June 2020 and we were starting to see the George Floyd protests mutate into riots. You start to see counter-protesting. This was starting to crisscross across the country at that point, and the division became more and more apparent, at least, whether it be Portland, or Kenosha or Stone Mountain. You saw all these like confrontational protests and the Proud Boys. Obviously, their profile was raised throughout the summer, and when the President said, Proud Boys, “stand back and stand “y,” I was like, Oh, well, that sort of puts the chances of political violence a little bit higher than I previously thought. 

So I was like, we have to go and find the Proud Boys. So I got Enrique Tarrio’s number, and I called him, and he had this voicemail message fromRoger Stone, saying, Enrique Tarrio isn’t here. He’s out kicking asses and saving America. And as I played it in the office at the time, we thought that was quite funny. It was, you know, Roger Stone with this sort of bombastic message. Eventually, I spoke to Enrique, and he said, come down. And we came down, and then we sort of didn’t leave.

Sam Goldman  35:44

When you were there through the time prior to January 6, what was that experience like? What sticks with you from that experience?

Nick Quested  35:55

Well obviously, December 12,, I think because that’s when they went from a sort of more defensive posture to offensive posture. The Rubicon is crossed around there. That was probably the most poignant moment for me. 

Sam Goldman  36:08

For those who might not recall, December 12, 2020 was two days before the Electoral College voted to make Biden’s victory official. Thousands of Trump’s mindless followers rallied in DC, buying the fiction of a stolen election, the message of Fight, fight, fight for Trump, fight for fascism, was echoed by the majority of speakers and acted on later that night by participants. I was one of the very few people during the day who showed up to counter-protest. Proud Boys marauded through the streets that night in the hundreds, seeking to terrorize people, dressed for battle with tasers and pepper spray, seeking people out to beat, to maim, Black men alone at night, Black property to destroy. 

They went to Asbury United Methodist Church. They took down the church’s Black Lives Matter flag and they set it on fire while they chanted “fuck Antifa.” They went to Metropolitan AME Church, another Black church, and ripped their Black Lives Matter sign down. Proud Boys making good on Trump’s request by bringing their fascist street level terror to the nation’s capital in support of his campaign to overturn the election. No police intervened to stop these mobs from vandalizing and setting ablaze property of these Black churches. 

Worth contrasting this gentle police treatment of white supremacist mobs to the barrage of rubber bullets, poison, clouds of tear gas, police brutality, mass arrests and the deployment of the U.S. military at Trump’s order. If you remember that was rained down on protesters for Black Lives during that summer prior. Embedding yourself in that proximity with what I would call a fascist movement. You want to say white supremacist, threat to democracy, however you might put it. You were there at some of these incredibly critical junctures that ended up, in many ways, deciding the trajectory of January 6 becoming what it was. 

I am wondering if there were particular insights that you were able to gather because of that proximity being at that critical meeting between members of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, I think, in that underground garage just before the insurrection, if there are moments of being in the midst of it that you think that you were able to garner insights on that others weren’t able to because they hadn’t spent the time that you have.

Nick Quested  38:28

You’ve got to look at the Proud Boys as a group of men who are struggling to find their place in society for whatever reasons, and they sort of chose to find the company of other men. For most of the time it’s just sort of immature, boisterous, rambunctious behavior, without any sort of regard for anyone in the vicinity. That’s what it is. Most of the time it’s not overtly offensive. I would say that would be one of the takeaways. 

But the other takeaway is, if they were there to fight and they were there to message what they were about, I mean, a lot of the shouting that they did, particularly on December 12, where they’re shouting over the police lines, you know, I’m standing there with a camera, they’re very aware that I’m there, and they’re very aware they’re being filmed. So it becomes performative, and I become a tool for them to disseminate their message. They’re performing for the cameras, like they are aware of it, although I think their behavior would have been similar with whatever camera was there, but there would have been a camera, even if it had been their own camera. 

I think one of the things that you start to see is not necessarily aware of in real time, is how these groups were communicating consistently, and how there were little links and couriers between all of these people. I found that to be very intriguing. That’s what shocked me. The fundamental basis of the film is these sort of hidden links of this organization. It came so fast to people in those 64 days that you don’t see the relationship between the lawsuits and the spurious claims of election denial to on the ground violence and state capital invasions and January 6 itself. So when you start to put it all together, it feels like a variety of organized plans that all acted in concert, not necessarily collusion.

Sam Goldman  40:13

There was coordination, even if it wasn’t directed one on one in particular.It’s fascinating. I don’t mean in a great way, but it is fascinating how the more boots on the ground movements, who for much of their existence were filled with animosity towards each other and had differences in approach, in beliefs, were still able to come together on January 6 in order to achieve this.

Nick Quested  40:46

I know it’s a very diverse coalition of outright causes, whether it’s the Covid deniers, lockdown deniers, white supremacists, evangelicals, Q-Anon adherents, a very diverse coalition of outright thought.

Sam Goldman  41:00

You had written, I think on the Kickstarter for the film, that the film is, without question, the single most important film you’ve directed. Could you tell us a little bit about why that is for you?

Nick Quested  41:13

Well, I think it is because we’re standing at a moment where we face exactly the same challenges in exactly the same way, and we haven’t learned from any of this. I think we’re going to see a similar playbook to Stop the Steal again. I think we’re going to see poll workers and election workers creating pretexts for protests. We’re going to see protests outside of narrow swing state victories. We’re going to see Trump refusing to accept the election results if he loses. We’re going to see state legislators and boards of electors refusing to certify precincts, counties, states. We’re going to see alternate slates of electors. We’re going to see a flurry of spurious lawsuits. 

One of the reasons we were so interested in division in America is because when you see that level of public disturbance on the streets, you’ve got to look back into history and say, when was those levels of disturbance and when people deny elections? What happens? So Franco in 1936 denied the election was a free and fair election in Spain, and established two garrisons in Spain and fought a three year civil war, which he won. In 1922 in three days, Mussolini managed to take over Rome with the use of the same type of tactics as you see the Proud Boys employing about the occupation of territory. Hitler, it took a little longer. 

You can see how fragile democracy is and how a few very well-placed operatives who are very good at what they do, how they can challenge the very fundamental nature of the country. You know I’m a journalist and I’ve reported on conflicts throughout the world. The film we made is journalism. It’s not an activist film. Everything about it is double sourced, triple sourced, or it’s a first hand account. The fact that this film has become such a touchstone for discussion and disputes is fascinating to me, because I never thought that we would be in this type of situation in America where fundamental ground truths, which we captured on film are questioned as truth, and that also, as you say, is a pattern of fascism, is to deny, lie as often as you can, and sooner or later, people will believe it.

Sam Goldman  43:17

And then the truth is only what their dear leader says. [NQ: the truth is perception, yeah.] You had testified in the January 6 Commission and brought forward the fact that you were there. In many ways, this film is a deep elaboration on that, providing ample evidence of what transpired and how we got there. I’m wondering, based on what you just said, what kind of controversy this has struck up, what kind of response you have gotten about the film so far?

Nick Quested  43:49

Well, everyone who’s seen the film has responded enormously positively to it, in the sense of how emotionally provocative it was, but using facts that they didn’t understand in context or were new to them. But we’re struggling to find a broadcaster at the moment. And I think you can look at what happened at MSNBC in the last couple of days, where Cesar Conde, the chairman of NBC News, decided that he would postpone the broadcast of Separated, the Errol Morris and Jacob Soboroff film till after the elections. And this is another film that is allegedly a piece of journalism. It takes no sides. It’s not didactic. It doesn’t tell you what to think. It just gives you a set of facts and circumstances that you should think about. This is a big problem with corporate America at this point, is that they live in fear. That’s not a good place to operate from if you’re a journalist or a journalistic organization.

Sam Goldman  44:43

Absolutely not.

Nick Quested  44:45

Do we end up being Turkey? Do we end up being El Salvador? Venezuela, Egypt, Russia, China?

Sam Goldman  44:52

Especially if giving people access to information now could make all the difference in terms of having a people prepared and aware. Not that awareness is the only preparation that’s needed, but there’s a degree of sleepwalking into another coup that I think is truly mind boggling. To be honest, it went so quickly back to oh, that couldn’t happen again. We’re in a different place now. Trump hasn’t changed, and that huge base of tens of millions of people who do salivate over the idea of a civil war, have not changed either, in my opinion. You spoke some about how you see the danger in the coming weeks. I was wondering, what do you think has changed? What would be different?

Nick Quested  45:45

The campaign hasn’t paid operators like Roger Stone this time round. You know, you’re going to see a different group of influencers emerge. Maybe Luma emerges as a strong candidate of the Stop the Steal, Mark II as an influencer, and other influencers will fall into line. A lot of the leadership has either been of Stop the Steal and the militias, obviously, the leaders were prosecuted and found guilty of a variety of crimes. But I don’t see Ali Alexander with the same vocality as he used to or the same platforms available to him. I don’t see him being very prolific, and neither Stone, either. I think Stone has chosen to take a back seat in this one for whatever reason. But there will be people emerge and you know, the crowds will be coordinated, the momentum will still start to build up. State capitals are very soft targets compared to the nation’s capital. 

Sam Goldman  46:34

I think that one of the puzzling things for so many people is that confronting the reality that there’s no longer a time, that after election day, there’s a winner, and it just is over, that this will be contested. Let’s be real. There’s a chance that Trump could just win, but there’s a great chance that should he lose, he will contest the results, and there’s a people primed to respond, and I think that that is very hard for people to grasp, that this won’t just wrap up, that we’re going to be in that period. Is there thoughts based on your time with the Proud Boys and others? Do you have thoughts on what people who do not want to see a January 6 or worse occur? What could be done now to prepare or what people could do in that event?

Nick Quested  47:27

I mean, I think there’s still legislation that could be passed to make the non-certification of elections illegal. I think there’s efforts various courts need to go through about the adjudication of ballots and the adjudication of voter rolls. I think that there’s a lot of information that could be disseminated widely that gives people a clear understanding of what the facts are. There’s lots of stuff that could be done. There’s not much time, though.

Sam Goldman  47:52

No, and I’m not remembering the journalist’s name, but recently, Biden was asked whether he thought there would be a free and fair election, and Biden responded that he thought it would be a fair election, but he could not rule out that Trump wouldn’t call for violence based on statements that he said. That journalist, I’m forgetting her name right now, had asked what’s being done to prepare, and were they getting reports? And he basically brushed that question off and said, you know, we’re always getting reports, that there wasn’t much of a plan. And do you think that we’re in a situation federally to respond to another January 6?

Nick Quested  48:32

Well, I don’t think there’s going to be another January 6, because you don’t have the same focus on the certification of the Electoral College, because the Democrats will be incumbent at that point, so you don’t have that scenario. And I believe that the MPD, the FBI and Capitol Police will coordinate in a much more efficient fashion in the future, and they will share intelligence and threats to the capital. And I also think there’s going to be a lot more police around any of these states that become protests, because everyone has the right to protest, but I think that they’re going to make sure that there is a sufficient security there to ensure no civil disorder.

Sam Goldman  49:10

So you think that in terms of political violence, post the election, there will be more of a police security presence.

Nick Quested  49:18

In the capital, absolutely in the district. Yes, I don’t know if they’re going to be able to affect the same type of security at state capitals around America. I mean, Michigan had several invasions in 2020, one which was particularly fearsome. Georgia had a state capital invaded. Arizona, again, these are the people’s buildings.

Sam Goldman  49:39

I wanted to talk about what people who want to see and support the film can do, but before that, I wanted to give you the opportunity to tell us anything about the film that you want to share, about parts of it that you find significant, or from what you’ve heard from people who have watched the film, what sticks out to them is shocking. However you want to take that.

Nick Quested  50:01

I think there’s a couple of things that stick out to audience when they watch this film. One is, how organized the effort was and how quickly it came. I think that’s something that shocks people. And I also think that the way we approach the account of January 6, because I was there with my two colleagues, Nico Luffusonu and Alex Spiesse, and then we met Wade Shepherd on the steps. We provide a very immersive experience of what happened on January 6, because we were all there together at the beginning. We got split up early, and we ended up have three different journeys that had many nexus points. So we have this coverage of events with our own footage that makes it feel like you’re really in the crowd that day, like I was there for the barriers coming down. I was there as the people ran up the pathway there when the next barriers came down, when the flag was thrown on the police’s head, a huge Trump banner, flag thing that’s like, 20 foot high. 

Then the lines broke, and the crowd charged forward. And then Nico was inside the Capitol and saw Ashley Babbitt being taken away, and then I was there when Roseanne Boyland was in the crowd and unfortunately passed. It’s January 6, like the way you’ve never seen it before, but much more about how it actually was than anyone else has been able to portray so far. Because none of the people that were there were really there in the same way we were there as an organized crew. You know, there’s some people had isolated experiences. We have an encyclopedic experience.

Sam Goldman  51:25

For people who want to see the film and want it to be out in the world. What can people do?

Nick Quested  51:33

They’ll be able to go to 64daysfilm.com and be able to buy a download of it from the website there, and that will expand out to all the other different channels as they approve it. In another 30 days, it will be on Apple and Amazon and YouTube. We’re in discussions with a broadcaster, but we haven’t managed to secure a deal as of yet.

Sam Goldman  51:53

And how, if people want to spread the film once they see it?

Nick Quested  51:58

You could go to our Instagram channel or Tiktok, that’s 64 days film. Or even my Instagram is all covered with the stuff. So that’s Nick Quested at Instagram. And then we’re on Tiktok, and there’s a YouTube channel, 64 days film at YouTube, we’re trying to be there in every way for people to be able to find us. So you can find out more about the film. You can watch the trailers, you can watch the background and all the characters, with lots of the outtakes that we had and lots of the surplus material that we used, we used, created some of the social content and the contextualizing content that gives a good background to what the film’s discussing.

Sam Goldman  52:32

And the website, again, is 64daysfilm.com — Screenings?

Nick Quested  52:38

So we have screenings coming up all over. We have a screening coming up at UPenn. We’re negotiating in UVA for a screening. We have a screening on October 24 in D.C at the Avalon.  We’re playing at Upstate Films in Rhinebeck on October 28, 26th in Milliken Jacob Byrne Center on October 27, like we’re trying to just show the film. Come and see the film.

Sam Goldman  53:07

That’s wonderful. And people can find the dates on the website.

Nick Quested  53:11

On the website, yeah, we want to do more in Philly. We’re trying to organize one in Lehigh as well, and then others, as I said, the Scribe Center center in Philly.

Sam Goldman  53:18

And at Scribe Center, it’s going to be in October.

Nick Quested  53:21

We’re working on that yeah, but it should be in October.

Sam Goldman  53:24

Wonderful! Well, I want to thank you, Nick, so much for taking the time to talk with me about the film 64 days, and your experience making it. We look forward to watching it and spreading it with others. Thank you so much for joining me.

Nick Quested  53:41

Thank you so much. Thanks, Sam. Bye,

Sam Goldman  53:48

We’ve given you a lot to take in. One thought, Nick mentions how Ali Alexander and Roger Stone and certain others who played essential roles on January 6 have fallen back. And I just want to reiterate that J.D. Vance, Elon Musk, the Heritage Foundation and the New Apostolic Reformation, are more than capable of filling those roles, alongside the Stephen Millers and Mike Johnsons who have never left Trump’s side. 

Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. As always, please share this show with others. Rate and review an Apple podcast, wherever you listen or comment on our social posts or YouTube uploads. It makes a difference and is so appreciated. And of course, follow, subscribe wherever you listen, so you never miss an episode. As always, we love hearing from you. Find us on social media at refusefascism.org. Find us on YouTube at refuse_fascism. 

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Thanks to Mark Tinkleman, Richie Marini and Lina Thorne. Learn for helping produce this episode. Thanks to incredible volunteers, we have transcripts available for each show, so be sure to visit refusefascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox. Until next Sunday, In the Name of Humanity, We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America.