Trump’s Opening Salvo, Dems Roll Out the Welcome Mat + Against Christian Nationalism

Episode 226 Refuse Fascism

Sun, Nov 17, 2024 8:02PM • 49:14

Amanda Tyler  00:00

Christian nationalism suggests that to be a real American, one must be a Christian. It’s a political ideology and a cultural framework that seeks to merge American and Christian identities. How do we refuse fascism? How do we push back against Christian nationalism? Key to that is everyone being more actively involved. We’re going to have to use every tool in our toolbox for resistance and push back.

Sam Goldman  00:46

Welcome to episode 226 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States — a mission whose urgency and import has exponentially increased since Trump won the election. In today’s episode, we’re sharing an interview with Amanda Tyler. Amanda is the executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee. She leads the group Christians Against Christian Nationalism, and is the author of the new book ‘How to End Christian Nationalism.’

Right now, this audience needs to grow dramatically. Think about all those who are reeling with grief, anguish, terror and rage, feeling lost, alone and hopeless. They need this resource and community to reject fascism together. After you listen to the show, be sure to share it with others — click the Share button in your app to send this episode to a friend or 10 or let the world know why you listen by rating and reviewing on Apple podcast or your listening platform of choice. Here are two recent comments off of last week’s episode. First on YouTube @gunkwretch.3697 wrote: “Thanks for this. One of the worst parts of this situation is all the liberal gas lighting and scapegoating. So it’s nice to hear some people who are reacting appropriately.”

And over on Bluesky, which we’re on @RefuseFascism. Miss Riss wrote: “I posted a few excellent podcasts past few days, but the clear eyed anger of this was a bomb, because it’s better to be standing in where we are than isolated in fear of what might be, maybe.” If this resonated with you, support this pod and help us grow this audience by becoming a patron — join the community for as little as $2 a month over at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism.

We also have shirts where you can declare your refusal with a Refuse Fascism t-shirt, or wear our core slogan, our pledge, across your chest — In the Name of Humanity We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America — we have that in a shirt. Not only are you wearing it and spreading that message and manifesting that sentiment and working to get people to see their role and the need for mass refusal, but you’re also supporting this pod and helping it reach more people, when it’s needed the most. So see the show notes to get your shirts as well, or to become a patron. Patrons have a discount code posted on the Patreon page for those shirts.

Thank you in advance for your support. As always, before we get to the interview, I’ll do a little recap of the fascist defcon level and share some of what’s needed from those of us who don’t want a fascist USA. Before we get into the current news, I want to send us on a little Ms. Frizzle [Magic School Bus teacher] style field trip to mid November 1968, exactly 57 years ago. What has just happened? That motherfucker Richard Nixon just won the presidential election, both the Electoral College and the popular vote.

Not only that, but we just witnessed one of the United States’ most successful third-party runs of arch segregationist and Donald Trump prototype, George Wallace, who not only won 13% of the votes nationwide, but even took majorities in some whole states. And the context feels familiar. The U.S. is waging a genocidal war in Southeast Asia. Tensions between reactionary nuclear powers are growing by the day. White supremacy is on the rebound. Powerful rebellions of oppressed people and their allies have recently been brutally put down and stifled.

Chevron already knows all about global warming, even if you don’t. Now, if we lived here, what would we do? Would we bemoan the prospects of the Democratic Party? Would we throw up our hands and say there’s nothing we can do, the people have spoken? Would we retreat into our personal lives? Would we accommodate the new order? Or would we bring the society to the cusp of revolution? We all know, at least some of the history — at least enough to know that Nixon and Wallace and their programs did not set the terms for what came next. Returning to the present, it’s time to act on those lessons, now.

Sam Goldman  05:12

This past week, Biden welcomed Trump back to the White House, and as they chatted fireside, he said this:

Joe Biden  05:18

Well, Mr. President-elect, and former president. [DT: Thank you] Donald, congratulations. [DT: Thank you] And I Look forward to having a, like we said, smooth transition. Do everything we can make sure you’re accommodated, what you need. We’re gonna get chance to talk about some of that today. So, Welcome, welcome back.

Sam Goldman  05:38

Charlemagne tha God, on his radio show, posted this in response:

Charlemagne tha God  05:42

I just don’t understand the White House visit. Now, granted, you know, I’m glad it’s a peaceful transition of power, but what happened to the threat of democracy talk? What happened to the fascist talk? By the way, I know I’ve said those things about Trump as well, but I’m not talking about me. I’m talking about his political opponents, like President Biden.

Sam Goldman  05:58

Since Trump won the election, all accurate labeling of the Trump threat as fascism, as an existential threat, from Democratic leaders has stopped, even as Trump’s words and actions have made clear every day since the danger is real and imminent. Trump’s dreams of mass deportations and retribution are being prepared to be implemented. Project 2025 which the Democratic Party once railed against while campaigning, is about to be put into play, including through the appointment of two top aides who are Project 2025 contributors, Stephen Miller and Tom Homan. 

The  Democratic Party has taken no action to try to mitigate the massive impending assault on civil and democratic rights. You have been told to accept the outcome and celebrate the peaceful transfer of power of the most powerful and dangerous state power in the world to a fascist as a cherished virtue. TheDemocrats are now saying yes to cooperating with, accommodating, assisting to make things easier for fascist Trump. What the fuck? 

Well, revolutionary communist leader, Bob Avakian puts it succinctly this way: “For the Democrats, the stability of the rule of this system of capitalism, imperialism, even in the form of fascism, is more important than actually defeating fascism.” It is urgent that we stop relying on the Democratic Party to fight this the way it must be fought. They can’t. They won’t. They’ve shown us enough times for us to see, it’s up to us. Because, if Trump succeeds, humanity loses. 

Mary Trump put it well when she said shortly after the election: “We have to remember that fascism takes hold when we are silent. Fascism grows stronger when we obey in advance. There is so much to be done.” She recently tweeted: “To President Biden and all elected Democrats, stop playing by rules that no longer exist. At this point, it’s not just spinelessness, it’s complicity.” This is true, but what about us? Our complicity?

If decent people continue to straight jacket their actions by what is in the interest of the Democratic Party, all of humanity loses. Don’t follow their lead in accepting mass deportations, in accepting detention camps, in accepting further erosion of abortion rights nationwide, in accepting open white supremacy. Do not be silent in the face of fascism. Fuck no, will we get used to a fascist USA! Shortly after our founding, in December 2016, we had put out these slogans, which remain true: Don’t Normalize, Don’t Accommodate, Don’t Conciliate, Don’t Collaborate, Refuse Fascism. Because if you work with fascists, you normalize the road to horror. 

Now is a time for determined and defiant refusal against Trump’s whole fascist program. Now is the time to join together, uniting all who can be united, from different backgrounds and perspectives, to wage ferocious resistance against the fascist horrors that are coming and to defend those who are in the immediate crosshairs of this regime’s plots, especially our immigrant siblings. “In the Name of Humanity, We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America” must resound across thiscountry and every corner of society. Check out the show notes for some resources to do that right now, and send us your ideas on how you are bringing this refusal into the real world.

Now, I want to share two pieces of legislation that have already been put on the table that show some texture of how Trump and company see their strategy kicking off. First, there’s a bill to Stop Terror Financing and Tax Penalties on American Hostages Act that’s been revived to paint any nonprofit that opposes the bipartisan Israeli genocide against Gaza as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, and thereby strip them of their tax [exempt] status with the promise of worse to come. As horrid as this would have been to pass last summer when it was first introduced, it is now, for good reason, being seen as an enabling bill to prosecute any nonprofit that stands in Trump’s way. 

Tellingly, more than half of the House of Representatives, including a significant number of Democrats, voted in favor of this bill. Yet, it wasn’t able to reach the two thirds required to pass. But you know, they don’t take no for an answer — the bill is already being reworked and brought back to the House as soon as this coming week, where it will likely face a simple majority vote and almost certainly pass. Then there is the push for recess appointments. Remember how, when the Democrats held the White House and Congress in 2021, they insisted on giving every available tool to their opposition, most notably the filibuster? 

Afterwards, they continually pointed to the filibuster as the reason that they couldn’t accomplish any of the things they promised their base. Some even said that if the Democrats got rid of the filibuster in that moment, the Republicans would rewrite the rules to their advantage in the future. Bless their sweet souls. It seems that the filibuster may be safe, but,, that isn’t even on the radar, because Trump has already announced plans to enable so called recess appointments, meaning his Cabinet members won’t even have to be approved by 50 members of Congress, let alone 60. Trump is demanding Republican leaders in the Senate who will hold a majority in the chamber next year, agree to allow recess appointments. 

This seems realistic, given that Trump is returning to power with complete fealty from his party, including the once non-MAGA, “traditional Republicans,” who have influence in the chamber. Now, a lot of talk has been made of Trump’s cabinet of horrors. I just want to say the most dangerous person in the new Trump administration is Donald Trump — more fanatical, more unhinged, with more devoted followers and somehow less wildly hated, untethered from the shell of the former Republican Party.

Turning to the appointments, you may think these people are evil buffoons, cartoon villains, but this time, they are backed up by the “best minds” of the right. Matt Gaetz won’t have to figure out how to weaponize the Justice Department. They have the thousands of lawyers who worked on Project 2025 to do that with the pre fabricated orders, instructions and even orientation videos for the pre screened fascist minions to carry out their plans. This goes for the EPA, for the FDA, for almost every department and agency, they plan on keeping while tearing others, like the Department of Education and NLRB down to the ground. 

Extensive plans are already in place to root out the thousands of civil servants who make all these departments function and either leave the employee rosters empty or replace them with Trump loyal goons. Let’s look at some of the appointments in this light: Tom Homan has been named as Trump’s choice for Border Czar — a position which does not require congressional approval whatsoever. In this role, he is set to implement Trump’s promise to immediately deport more than ten million people. In Trump’s first term, Homan was Acting Director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. He oversaw the FamilySeparation Policy, a policy so cruelly and callously enacted that as of May this year, 1,400 children have still not been reunited with their families. And now he has said the solution to family separation is deporting families together.

Goebels zombie, more commonly known as Stephen Miller, was tapped as Deputy Chief of Staff, a position from which this openly white supremacist, anti-immigrant, patriarchal zealot can have pervasive power throughout the administration. For those who may not recall, Miller spearheaded such measures as the separation of Children and Families, mass detention and the Remain in Mexico program, which effectively blocked asylum seekers. Mike Huckabee has been appointed as the first non Jewish ambassador to Israel since 2011, but more significantly, he is a proud Christian Zionist. He sees Jewish people in Israel as a means to bring about the end times. He has made clear that he does not believe Palestinians have any right to exist, let alone any right to self determination.

Lee Zeldin was named to head the EPA with his credentials of unabashed loyalty to Trump, doubt of climate change being a “serious problem” and opposing the Paris Agreement and other renewable energy goals. His initial plans include targeting automotive emission standards, which have made a significant, even if incommensurate impact on consumer side greenhouse gas emissions. Even more ominously, Zeldin will be joined by the CEO of a fracking company, Chris Wright, as head of the Department of Energy. In addition to his own work wreaking havoc on the environment, Wright was the “top choice” of infamous Oklahoma fracking billionaire Harold Hamm.

Matt Gaetz. Is Trump’s pick for Attorney Gemeral, with the backing of extensive plans from Project 2025, Gaetz’s signature Gremlin like obstinance, his comically evil loyalty to Trump, his criminal hatred for and exploitation of women and girls, all promises to transform the Justice Department into an unprecedented house of horrors incorporating reinvigorated white supremacy and misogyny into plans to target anyone in Trump’s way. Expect investigations or worse into everyone from top Democrats to anyone leading real resistance to the fascist consolidation, as well as the gleeful criminalization of whole sections of society. Elon Musk is reportedly getting to head the Department of Government Efficiency, Doge, named after his failed cryptocurrency Dogecoin.

You might think that one insipid, business tycoon who inherited their parents’ blood money, convinced themselves that they earned it and used it to become a super villain, was enough. Now there are two, three, if you count the third wheel, Vivek. We’ve spoken about Musk at length. He is threatening to cut $2 trillion, a third of government spending, and we know that these cuts will not be coming from the military. It seems this “department” will aim to play a large role in carrying out Project 2025’s mandate to destroy the administrative state, clearly overstepping the legislative branch to even charter itself, let alone carry out its mandate.

This initiative is so unhinged and illegitimate on its face that it may either fizzle out entirely to be replaced by more traditional modes of presidential power, or come to be the ideological power house driving the promised wholesale transformation of federal power. Time will tell. Meanwhile, one really big potential obstacle that exists for the fascist takeover is the military. They obviously need it to function on multiple levels, and they are going in at war with its public facing leadership, parachuting a Fox News host into the leadership of the Department of Defense. They can’t simply Schedule F the military’s bureaucracy, and they can’t simply fire the leadership if they want to continue dominating the globe, as it does actually take some level of intelligence and continuity to execute its global strategies, even if Trump aims to transform those strategies to much more transactional ends.

More fundamentally, Trump’s program is at odds with the way that the American military justifies its extremely barbaric, often criminal and often genocidal actions. Trump’s transactional foreign policy issues, any notion of being the leader of the free world or a beacon for democracy in the world, even a force for good. This is not only how they justify such things to the public or the world, but the way that they justify themselves to many of their rank and file. It’s the way many of them are able to sleep at night. Trump isn’t blowing that up because it’s a lie to begin with. No, he’s blowing it up to reshape the most deadly fighting force in the world into an amoral murder machine on a mission from God.

To do this, he has announced the formation of a so called “Warrior board” led by Pete Hegseth, his pick to lead the Department of Defense, and a man who brags about being deemed a white nationalist by his own National Guard unit. He is not only a white nationalist, he is a Christian nationalist. See the show notes for resources on this. We could do a whole episode on him. Maybe we will. This board will exist to root out anyone not completely loyal toTrump and Trump’s deranged worldview. Hegseth chosen the number one target of this board, the Chairman of the Joint chief of staffs, Charles Q Brown Jr, saying, “any general that was involved, General, Admiral, whatever, in any of the DEI woke expletive has got to go.”

While there is no good guy here, this combative approach to the structure of the US militaries one of the most dangerous proposals on Trump’s docket, but one that, if he succeeds, will mean a whole new level of hell for people here and around the world, unleashing the most lethal force in the world from even the notion of international law or constitutional obligation. We don’t actually know how many Trump loyalists are in the military and how they are positioned, but with this warrior board purge on the horizon, we are likely to find out. You may wonder, aren’t these folks Trump is proposing all incompetent bozos? 

You, my friend, are looking at the wrong qualifications. These folks are incompetent if you are looking through some rational prism of politics as usual. But that’s not where they’re operating. That’s not where we are right now. They were chosen for their vicious white supremacy, their boundless misogyny, their cruel xenophobia, for their loyalty to their dear leader. They were chosen for their fascism, for that they are completely qualified. Trump and his regime have developed how to end run the confirmation process, and know the Supreme Court of the United States have given him the authority consider how many times during Trump’s last term, was the chaos that we saw the very vehicle by which they freed themselves from the constraints imposed by the established domestic and international order.

This time around, they are a much better footing with much more working in their favor, a whole party, three branches of government, a whole legal media and think tank apparatus. It’s worth heeding Rick Perlstein’s warning in his last essay, that essay that combats quote that rhetoric increasingly untethered from decency and lot. Critic would be Trump’s Achilles heel. End quote, he goes on to say that, quote, the way he lost his shit all the way to the White House. “Cognitive decline” and “disinhibition” all too often become our ritual alibi for how effectively Trump was inviting his supporters to revel in the pleasure of his unmitigated cruelty, licensing men to practice such cruelty themselves, which they are now all too free to do.”

I recorded the conversation you’re about hear with Amanda Tyler of Christians Against Christian Nationalism the day before the election, the conversation about what Christian Nationalism is, its danger and the need for mass rejection of it is ever more urgent, as Trump’s cabinet nominations are a clear reminder of the centrality of Christian Nationalism to their fascist program.

Recent guest of the show, Robert P. Jones, crystallized the responsibility of white Christians in his essay published in Time Magazine, stating, “According to the 2024, national election pool exit polls, eight in 10, 81% of white evangelicals, once again declared their allegiance to Trump, as did 60% of white Catholics and similar numbers of white non evangelical Protestants,” going on to say “Over the last decade, many white Christians have not just selfishly supported a dangerous, narcissistic man who promised to restore their waning influence, they have now willingly blessed the advent of a new American fascism that threatens our democratic future. They are principally responsible for Trump’s rise and return to power and for everything that is coming for all of us in its wake.”
As we’ve said on the show before, there’s no talking about fascism in the United States without talking about Christian fascism. That is the at the heart and center of the modern GOP, not just propelling them to power, but setting the pace and scope of policy. This movement is not stopping, slowing down or losing. With Trump returning to the White House, Christian nationalism won’t just be in the driver’s seat of the intellectual and policy hubs of the so called conservative movement. Christian nationalism will be deeply married to the highest echelons of political power in all branches of government and in the center of politics, in a way it never has been before.

With that, here’s my interview with Amanda.  Today, I’m honored to speak with Amanda Tyler, Executive Director of the Baptist Joint Committee, and author of How to End Christian Nationalism. She leads the campaign Christians Against Christian Nationalism. The book that brought our attention to Amanda’s work just came out last month, and it’s an essential guidebook for Christians who are alarmed by the rising tide of Christian nationalism yet don’t know how to counter it. So welcome Amanda, thanks for joining us.

Amanda Tyler  22:53

Oh, it’s so good to be here. Sam, thanks for having me.

Sam Goldman  22:56

I want to start with big question. People hear the words Christian nationalism all the time, even people who listen to our show, we might use the word Christian nationalism, and I think that it often times gets shorthanded for maybe somebody who takes a more fundamentalist view of Christianity to you and the work that you’re doing. How do you define Christian nationalism? Or, perhaps more importantly, what do people need to understand about what Christian nationalism is and why it’s so dangerous, including to people of the Christian faith. 

Amanda Tyler  23:33

I think definitions are such an important place to start, and so the definition I use for Christian nationalism is this one. It’s a political ideology and a cultural framework that seeks to merge American and Christian identities, or put another way, Christian nationalism suggests that to be a real American, one must be a Christian, and not just any kind of Christian, but often a Christian who holds fundamentalist religious beliefs that are often in line with conservative political priorities. 

Now, just to be a fundamentalist Christian alone does not mean that one is embracing Christian nationalism necessarily. Rather, it’s this merger of American and Christian identities into one. It also heavily relies on this mythological founding of the country as a “Christian nation,” not in the majority or demographic sense, but rather this mythological narrative that America was founded by Christians in order to privilege Christianity and law and policy. And I say it’s a myth because it really contradicts the history and the constitutional text in which the United States and the framers of the Constitution rejected the establishment of religion in favor of a system where we would have the institutional separation of church and state, where the government would remain neutral when it comes to religion, and where one’s belonging in American society would not depend on one’s religion or how one worshiped, or even if one were religious at all. 

Christian nationalism rejects those foundational principles of religious freedom for all people in favor of a narrative that says that really the only people who fully belong are the people who held power at the beginning of the country, that is, white, Protestant Christian men who owned property and the narrative of Christian nationalism, those are the people who are most American, who are most deserving of full citizenship rights, and everyone else is on the lower rung of the caste system is created by white Christian nationalism. And it is important to note that in the American context, in particular, Christian nationalism has so many overlaps with white supremacy and racial subjugation, and that’s because the Christian and Christian nationalism is less about a given theology or religion and more about this ethno- national identity of whiteness. 

And for Christians like myself, Christian nationalism is a form of idolatry because it merges political and religious authority into one. It suggests that the government is God and God is government, whereas Jesus taught in the Bible that we are to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s, that there is a difference between God and Caesar and Christian nationalism also is a gross distortion of the teachings of Jesus, of the central message of Christianity, which is showing love for God through love of neighbor. Christian nationalism is rather about a false idol of power, that it’s power at all costs that we are to pursue, and it does not comport with a reading of the gospels that focuses on love of neighbor.

Sam Goldman  23:33

Thanks for that breakdown. And I was wondering if your background kind of propelled you into this work at all? You know, both your own identity as a Christian, but also your experience in the legal sphere. Is that part of what propelled you to kind of think about how to empower Christians to struggle against this trend that is rising. 

Amanda Tyler  27:26

Yeah, well, I think most immediately kind of what got me onto this path of leading Christians Against Christian Nationalism and opposing the ideology and writing the book was my professional position of leading the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty, which is this 88 year old advocacy organization headquartered on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C., that has really worked for all of our history to defend the separation of church and state and to understand how best to protect religious freedom for all people, Not just Baptists, not just Christians, but all people in the United States. And our work has been mostly focused in the domestic sphere in that way. 

But yes, my personal biography, and even what brought me to the work of the BJC is are these dual tracks that have kind of been running throughout my life. One, it’s a commitment to my faith and my religion. I am a Baptist Christian, participation in Baptist churches and really continuing this call of my life to grow closer and closer to Jesus and God and understanding how best to live my life as a Christian, while I’ve also had just a deep interest through all my life in law and politics and government, which led me to go to law school and to eventually work with a member of Congress for several years. Also had some experience working for a federal judge and then different other law jobs that you know, this deep interest that I had in both of these things and understanding throughout all my work, like, what is the best relationship between religion and government? 

How do we have our religion inform our approach to the public square without insisting that our religious views be reflected in law and policy? That’s the difference between faith based advocacy, which I think is a very healthy component of a pluralistic democracy and Christian nationalism, which I think is a poisonous ideology that moves us away from democracy and towards authoritarian theocracy. So it was just these deep interests of mine that led me to BJC, and then my work at BJC has led me, with my colleagues and other partners working in other organizations, to really go deeply into understanding Christian nationalism and why it is such a threat to American democracy, to religious freedom for all people, and also to an authentic Christian witness.

Sam Goldman  29:53

When you look at the presidential campaign, you look at the way that faith has been weaponized and used as a bludgeon to rationalize things that have to do with power and white supremacy and theocracy, and most Christian people do not look at those things and say, Yes, that is why I go to church on Sunday. When you look at that campaign, are there things that you feel were the most troubling, or that were advances that you saw in Christian nationalism being mainstreamed amongst the leadership of the GOP, or any other way that you want to take that?

Amanda Tyler  30:34

I think I’ve seen Christian nationalism show up in the presidential campaign. And so I’ll just kind of point out a few instances that I find most troubling. One is this conflation of religious identity and political identity, the claim that we’ve heard from different candidates in different races, that if you’re a good Christian you have to vote as a Republican or vice versa. If you’re a good Christian, you have to vote as a Democrat, that these identities are not one and the same. And it’s an attack I see on religious freedom to claim that our religious identities can be reduced to a political platform, or should be reduced to a political platform. 

There’s been a lot of, I think, shaming done that I’ve seen in just the rhetoric, not just from campaigns, but also from supporters of different candidates that claim that political identity and religious identity are the same. Former President Trump, for instance, said at one point, you know, you can’t be a good Jewish person and vote for his opponent, you know. So it’s not just Christian identity, it’s other religious identities as well. I think that’s a big incursion on religious freedom, and it is not helpful rhetoric in political campaigns. Another example is claims that any candidate is God’s chosen candidate. 

We’ve heard that rhetoric a lot about former President Trump, from people in his campaign, people who are supporting his campaign, likening him to a messiah figure, or a savior, for instance, using this overtly religious language, and it really ramped up after the failed assassination attempt this summer, particularly during the RNC convention, when speaker after speaker claimed that God had saved Trump in order to win the election and run the country. And I see real problems with this on the whole concept of a free and fair election, as if God is determining all of the election results. It really takes the election in that way out of the hands of the voters.

We saw some of that same language used by these false prophets who claim that God has already told them the election result, the idea then it just plants the seed in many people’s minds that if any result is not what the prophecies have said, that somehow it is illegitimate, somehow the election has been stolen. That kind of rhetoric was used in the 2020 campaign, and we saw what happened on January 6, 2021 when people were told the big lie over and over again, not just from campaign officials, but also from religious leaders who were claiming that that had happened. So we’re seeing that repeated. But I also have theological problems with the idea that God saved Trump, because we know that there was someone who lost his life there.

Does that mean that God didn’t want to save the person who died in Butler, Pennsylvania? And so I think that making these claims raises not just problems in the political realm, but also in the theological realm. So we’ve seen that use of Christian nationalist language really amp up the stakes for this election, and I fear the possibility for political violence as well, because we know that when religious fervor is added to an already politically tense time, that that can actually intensify violence and have people even more committed to the cause, because it becomes not just a race for the presidency, but this existential threat, this idea that they are, some of the language that’s used as people are in God’s army, or that they’re having the armor of God around them in order to avenge the right result. That’s all very dangerous in this current context.

Sam Goldman  34:19

I wanted to pivot into the main thrust of your work, which is empowering people to be part of dismantling Christian nationalism. There’s this one quote that sums it up, “We will not end Christian nationalism if Christians do not actively work to dismantle it.” And I wanted to ask you about some of the components that you see most essential in that work. There’s the statement, the initiative that you put forward, and there’s the book. So whichever way you want to take it, if you want to combine both, I’d love to hear but what are the key elements that you feel like people need to come away with? I know that there’s a whole book people should read. But if there’s highlights that are resonating with you the most today?

Amanda Tyler  35:03

Well, when I think about what we’re going to need to end Christian nationalism, I really think about three kind of buckets of activity. One is just increasing our own awareness around what Christian nationalism is. And these are things that people have all faith and none have a role to play. But I think that the primary audience for my book is a Christian audience, because I think that Christians, and specifically white Christians, have in many ways, done the most to perpetuate the ideology, both through acts and areas of inaction, but also that we as white Christians have, whether we like it or not, have been privileged and benefited by the ideology, and so we have a great responsibility, I think, to work to dismantle it.

Part of that is just understanding better what it is, how it manifests, really having some self reflection about how our own way of thinking and our own theologies have been influenced by Christian nationalism, which is a very old problem. This is not something that came with Trump or even came in the decades preceding him, but rather is a centuries old problem that is just how Christian theology has been distorted and manipulated for the pursuit of power since before the country was even founded. How do we really understand this ideology even better, and how do we distinguish it from our understanding of what it means to be a Christian, our understandings of what Jesus taught and the ways that we’re supposed to live in ways that create a flourishing society for everyone, for all of our neighbors, not just for Christians.

So one just becoming more aware and things like reading books, watching films. Those are things that can kind of get us more involved and having group discussions about those things. Two, we need to organize for change. And this is really ground up work. I think it is a big and more engaged involved in groups that are doing work on the local level. Now. Those can be sometimes within Christian communities, like churches, but they can also be in multi faith and multi ethnic, multi racial coalitions that are working together on the ground to again, really address problems that we’re seeing in our communities and fashion interventions to make a more equitable and just society for all of us, that our communities work better for everyone.

So I give some examples in the book about what faith based organizing looks like on the ground where it’s been successful in the past. You know, I think an example most people are familiar with is through the civil rights movement and how important these faith based organizing efforts were to having some of those gains for progress in the 20th century. How do we learn how to how those models worked and work together to organize for change in the future? And then third is just being ready to advocate in the public square when Christian nationalism comes up. So that looks like contacting our elected representatives, going to testify in person when we can against policies or for policies that further a more equitable and just society for us all, speaking out against theocracy, speaking out against Christian nationalism.

The good news about all of this is that there a majority of Americans and a majority of Christians don’t want a society that’s taken over by Christian nationalism, but it’s really about working together to be more bold in our advocacy, to getting more involved. And when I think about how do we refuse fascism, how do we push back against Christian nationalism, I think key to that is everyone being more actively involved in democracy while we still have it that it really is going to take more active involvement from all of us, yes, voting yes, helping other people to vote, but also being more involved in just the workings of our communities, and being In Touch and influencing policies with our elected officials between elections too.

I concentrate in the book in general about public advocacy, but I have a chapter that’s specifically on how Christian nationalism is being pushed in public schools, and give some real, actionable examples, but also ideas on how people can get more involved in what’s happening with their public schools? Because every community has public schools, and most communities are having these kinds of challenges, whether it be book bans, content bans, pushing of teaching the Bible in public schools, or other examples of government sponsored religious exercise that may not get the same kind of attention that some of the more stark examples of Christian nationalism get on the national level, but actually have a more day to day impact on our lives, and this is a way for people in every community to get more engaged.

Sam Goldman  39:55

Thanks for that. I was wondering since you’ve been taking this statement out. Out since your book’s been out a few weeks now, if there’s any stories of the impact that you already are seeing happen or organizing your actions that you’ve seen take off within the past month or month of your work, yeah.

Amanda Tyler  40:15

So, some of the work, of course, predated the publication of the book, because it came out of the leadership at the campaign, which started five years ago. And so Christians Against Christian Nationalism have a pilot project of a local organizing project where we actually hired a local organizer to work in North Texas with a particular group, and through our engagement and trying to get a coalition engaged there, we have had more active pushback against some of the bad policies that are coming out of the state legislature and helping keep them from being implemented on the local level.

So an example of that is last year, the Texas Legislature passed a law, first of its kind in the country, but has now been replicated in other areas, to encourage the hiring of school chaplains in public schools, and because there were really almost no rules or regulations around who these chaplains could be or what they could do, the impact would be proselytization of kids in public schools in ways that really violate the religious freedom rights of children and their families. Our coalition, working with other organizations, really first brought awareness to the problem people in the community through a letter that was signed by professional chaplains who explained, we’re chaplains, and we believe in chaplaincy, but this is the wrong context for it, drew awareness through mass media to the problem of the bill, but then also helped support and train people to go and speak at their school boards. And because of this kind of broad based advocacy that we were engaged in and partnered with other groups, even though this law passed the legislature, it has been largely unimplemented by school boards.

School boards have decided not to expand into this area because of the advocacy. This tells me that this kind of focused advocacy will work, that when we have people of all faiths and none, but really having a lot of Christians come out and say, Look, we’reChristians, but we don’t want our faith pushed in the public schools, that our community members respond to that. But now that the book is out, this is just a great other tool for a lot of people to get more engaged and to understand what they can do to get more involved.

The feedback as I’ve had a book tour and traveling around to a number of different communities has been tremendous because I found that people were looking for such a resource and that they are feeling inspired and wanting to get more engaged. So in each place, I’m connecting with local organizations that are doing meaningful organizing work on the ground, and trying to connect the people who come to the events to the work that’s already happening, so that they have an immediate call to action and way to get more engaged that goes above and beyond just reading the book, which I want them to do, and discussing the book, which I want them to do, but actually then taking the next step and starting to take action as well.

Sam Goldman  40:39

What do you see as being needed from people of the Christian faith, or of any faith or no faith, in terms of resisting the Christian nationalist agenda?

Amanda Tyler  43:26

Yeah. I mean, I think that we’ve been through four years of a Trump administration. We know what that can look like. I think we can expect that it will be more extreme than it was the first time, but we can learn from what worked in the first administration to kind of understand how we respond here. And an example I will give is we know that a week after Trump was inaugurated, the first time that he enacted the Muslim travel ban, and we saw Americans show up at airports and have volunteer attorneys help people navigate the system. We saw that he had to go through three versions of the travel ban before he had something that could even get the legal blessing of the U.S. Supreme Court, legal blessing, which, by the way, I believe was absolutely wrong.

I think the Supreme Court got the final ruling in that case, absolutely wrong. But we had a form of resistance. I think we will just have todo that tenfold times. I think we’re just going to have to know that while we have that still levers of democracy available to us, we’re going to have to use every tool in our toolbox for resistance and pushback, and that it’s got to come from a broad based group of people, and that Christians have tobe actively involved. Have to be saying, you know, this is not my faith that you’re representing. And when you’re trying to use Christianity as a cover for these discriminatory policies that you’re pushing that that doesn’t reflect all Americans, it does not reflect all. Christians and to be more actively involved in speaking out against it, in showing up when necessary, for protests, for other actions, for contacting elected members.

I’m not saying that this is going to be easy, and particularly one of the many things that’s concerning about Trump is that he’s being so bold to talk about what he would do to his political opponents. And so there will be, I think, a real need for political courage on the part of people who are doing the resistance, and it will really need us to be knit very closely together to protect one another in what becomes an increasingly hostile environment. So I’m very wide eyed about what’s at stake, but I also think it’s nothing short of trying to preserve the democracy we have and make it work better for everyone, regardless of religion, race, ethnicity, gender, every aspect of all of our identities, that this country needs to work for all of us, or it works for none of us, and this is the moment that we’ll need to really show who we are as Americans.

Sam Goldman  46:09

Thanks, Amanda, and thanks for taking the time to talk with me and to share with us your book, your work, and we’re going to include in the show notes BJC online. We’re going to include the Christians Against Christian Nationalism statement, a link for that. And we’re going to include, of course, a link so that you can get your copy of How to End Christian Nationalism. Is there anything else that you want to direct people to?

Amanda Tyler  46:42

The only other website is weendChristiannationalism.com and so that has both links to buy the book, but also information about tour stops and other information on the book. And for social media, we’re on Instagram and Tiktok at End Christian Nationalism and then the BJC handles or BJC on the hill. 

Sam Goldman  47:04

Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. Trump won, but the future is unwritten. Will they be able to carry out their fascist program of ethnic cleansing, unveiled white supremacy and misogynist cruelty? What will take root and spread, complacency and accommodation, or resistance and refusal? We all have the role to play right now. One thing we know is that this message needs to spread. Donate now, one time or regularly, to promote and sustain the Refuse Fascism podcast. See the show notes for how to give. If you can give regularly, you can become a patron and be part of our community. Get your shirt or other merch. Both spread the message and support the podcast.

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