Episode 273
We share some of the voices from the December 13 action delivering the People’s Indictment of Donald Trump at the White House. Read and share here: The People’s Indictment of Donald Trump: A Unified Declaration of Illegitimacy – Refuse Fascism.
Then, Sam speaks with Matthew Hoh, former U.S. Marine and diplomat who resigned from the State Dept. in 2009 in protest over the war in Afghanistan, about Trump’s “Donroe Doctrine” and the actual fascist strategy behind plans to attack Venezuela. Follow Matt on Instagram or Twitter at @MatthewPHoh and read his writings at matthewhoh.substack.com.
Mentioned in this episode:
- Nationwide Trans Youth Care Ban Incoming As Trump Admin Announces “Nuclear Option” Federal Rule by Erin Reed
- Pam Bondi’s Ominous New Memo: “Operationalizing” Trump’s All-Out Fascist Vision
- Deepening Understanding of Fascism & Resistance: Recommended Viewing and Reading-Refuse Fascism
Text NOW or SUPPORT to 855-755-1314, follow @RefuseFascism on social media (@RefuseFashizm on TikTok) and our YouTube channel: @Refuse_Fascism.
Support:
- Subscribe to Refuse Fascism on Substack
- patreon.com/refusefascism
- donate.refusefascism.org
- Venmo: Refuse-Fascism
- Buy merch (Big Cartel)
- Buy merch (Fourth Wall)
Music for this episode: Penny the Snitch by Ikebe Shakedown
Episode 273 Trumps Fascism and… Drive Toward War on Venezuela
Sun, Dec 21, 2025 1:03PM • 54:58
Matthew Hoh 00:00
The ICE raids are part of the same policies that these air strikes murdering people on the ocean are. There’s an intersection there between domestic and foreign policy. A blockade is an act of war under international law. It’s illegal. You can see a guy like Stephen Miller who sees what’s happening with Venezuela, whether it’s potential regime change or the murder of people in boats out at sea as being integral to the success of his purging — his cleansing of America.
Sam Goldman 00:45
Welcome to episode 273, of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism works to unite all who can be united to drive out the Trump fascist regime through mass, relentless, nonviolent resistance. We are so glad to be back with you.
Today, we’re sharing a recording of an interview I did with Matthew Hoh, discussing Venezuela. Earlier this week, we did a Substack live together. Yes, we are on sub stack. See the show notes for the link and please subscribe. I just want to say apologies upfront for the sound quality on this interview. Richie did amazing work editing, but it’s still not the best, not nearly the best. So we will do better — meaning I will do better — in future sub stack recordings.
Before we go any further, I want to thank everyone who rates and reviews the show. After listening today, please take a moment and rate and review wherever you listen. It helps more people find this community. Much Thanks to our patrons. We really couldn’t do this without you. If you are not yet a patron, sign up to become one today for as little as $2 a month over at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism. Also don’t forget to check out our stores (see the show notes) to grab our new hoodies and spread the imperative Trump Must Go Now! and we also have new Refuse Fascism beanies, so you want to check those out as well.
On Saturday, December 13, we gathered at the White House to do something unprecedented: deliver the People’s Indictment of Donald Trump, a Unified Declaration of Illegitimacy. Go to RefuseFascism.org to read this document in full and to get versions of it that you can post up on the walls, spread it everywhere, hand it out. This indictment lays out the core crimes of the Trump fascist regime, and makes the case plainly and unapologetically: This regime has no right to rule and must be driven from power. Speakers from different movements and fronts of struggle confronted the dangers we face during this rally and shared the responsibility that we all have to meet them. Here are some of those voices.
Kim Villanueva 03:25
Our democracy, our freedoms and the rights of millions of women and LGBTQIA people are under attack, and the source of this attack is clear: Donald J. Trump. We’re not powerless. We’re not spectators. This is our moment to rise, to hold accountable those who betray the people. So Donald Trump, you are indicted for crimes against the people of the United States! [crowd cheers]
Terrynfrom Refusefascism DMV, Veteran03:49
…because a collapse in approval doesn’t mean a collapse in danger. [crowd approves] He’s demented. Donald Trump is demented, all over the place, doesn’t know what’s going on. That makes it more lethal and dangerous.
Nelson from Salvadorans United 04:04
Children are left behind, crying, confused, traumatized. They’re in fear instead of safety. Court orders are ignored. Judges are defied. The Constitution is treated like an inconvenience.
Sunsara Taylor 04:21
If you are here because you hate Trump fascism, you are in the right place. This movement unites people from very different perspectives around the single unifying demand that the Trump Fascist Regime Must Go Now! [cheer] We are determined to bring forth the massive, sustained, growing, nonviolent protest and resistance, centered here in D.C. and all across the country, that does not stop until Trump has been driven from power! [cheers]
Oye Owolewa, U.S. Representative for D.C.04:44
Until all of us [are] safe, none of us is safe. When we go to the White House and demand Trump’s removal, we’re not just doing it for ourselves, we’re doing it for the people who live here, in Washington, D.C.
Kelly Mikel Williams, Candidate for U.S. Congress05:01
We refuse to surrender our rights, our vote and our future. We do not put our hands down. We don’t put our power down, and we do not relent to this fascist regime. From this courthouse to every federal agency that’s coming around here. This is the nation’s capital. This city, right here, is the most powerful city in the world.
Andy Zee 05:55
It’s a tremendous amount of joy that comes together in standing for the future. Every thing that’s decent, everything that’s moral, everything that stands for justice in this world, this country and for the people of the whole world, has got to go through stopping this fascist pirate and all the people behind him from imposing a fascist rule on America.
Sam Goldman 06:19
This action capped off six weeks of sustained nonviolent mobilization in Washington, D.C., bringing forward thousands from different backgrounds and political perspectives in rare, necessary unity around a single demand: Trump Must Go Now! For more sights and sounds. Visit our Instagram, @RefuseFascism. And our website, RefuseFascism.org.
Sam Goldman 06:47
This week, the Trump fascist regime escalated its all out assault on transgender people, especially trans youth. As journalist Erin Reed reported, the Department of Health and Human Services Under Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. released a proposed rule that represents “the single most aggressive attack on transgender health care in U.S. history.” The rule would effectively ban gender affirming care for minors nationwide, blocking Medicaid from covering care and threatening hospitals that provide puberty blockers, hormone treatments, or surgeries with exclusion from Medicare and Medicaid. In practice, that would force many hospitals to shut down services or close entirely if they refuse to comply. Court challenges are all but certain, but as Erin Reed warns, “If the rule is ultimately allowed to go into force, it would likely spell the end of most transgender youth care in the United States.”
At the same time, the Republi-fascist controlled House has passed legislation to criminalize doctors who provide gender affirming care to minors with penalties of up to ten years in prison. Civil rights organizations, including the ACLU, have called it “The Most Extreme anti trans legislation ever considered by Congress.” Even if this bill stalls in the Senate, the danger is real and the direction is unmistakable. Also, this week, Trump ordered his name be added to the Kennedy Center.
As absurd as that sounds, what should truly stop us cold is this: It actually happened! His name was physically installed, despite the fact that only Congress has the authority to make decisions like this, despite the opposition of multiple members of the Kennedy family, and despite objections from members of the Kennedy Center’s own board. At the board meeting, several directors who opposed the move were reportedly mute –, literally silenced before the vote. Then workers arrived with machinery and chisels and the name was put in place.
When people say: Trump can’t do that — this is the lesson. Fascists don’t care what they’re not allowed to do. This was symbolic, but symbols matter. This time, they showed up with tools and no one stopped them. So ask yourself, what happens when they show up with the full force of the U.S. military to do something they’re not supposed to do? If we don’t stand up now and nonviolently drive this regime from power, we may not have the chance for much longer. So let’s talk a little bit more about this urgency.
On December 4, U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi issued an extremely dangerous memo to federal law enforcement titled: Implementing National Security Presidential Memorandum 7, Countering Domestic Terrorism and Organized Political Violence. A major U.S. law firm, Arnold and Porter, warned that this memo is, “one of the most consequential internal directives in recent years,” an aggressive operational blueprint for carrying out an National Security Presidential Memo 7 that “reshapes how domestic terrorism will be defined, investigated, charged and resourced across the federal government.”
The key message is unmistakable: Federal law enforcement is being directed to target individuals, organizations and funders under a definition that explicitly links “domestic terrorism” to anti-fascist ideologies. In the eyes of the MAGA fascist regime, terrorism is no longer defined by violent actions, but by ideas. Opposition in any form to the regime is treated as a threat. Using NSPM 7 as legal cover, this memo lays the groundwork for broad and extremely harsh repression of activists, liberal NGOs, dissident thinkers, and anyone who dares to resist — all under the banner of “fighting domestic terrorism.”
This foreshadows a major leap in repression. It cannot be brushed off, and it cannot be met with silence. Yet, far too few people are aware of this, or planning how to respond. Raising consciousness and standing together with the spirit of an injury to one is an injury to all may be the difference between submission to this fascism and stopping this before it fully comes down. To learn more about this, see a critical resource in the show notes.
And she said: Does this really work? It just seems like we’re out rallying and nothing changes. And I said to her: Michelle, I understand your frustration, because a lot of the rallies, they are just like parades. We have a different strategy. We are talking about getting millions and millions of people into the streets, in the seat of power. If you study what happens, or what has happened where authoritarian regimes have been pushed out of power in other countries, that’s how it gets done.
Today we’re confronting a dangerous escalation, with Trump’s move toward all out war on Venezuela, the Trump fascist regime is reviving and violently enforcing the Monroe Doctrine of 1823 — the assertion that the Western Hemisphere is the rightful domain of U.S. domination. As historian Greg Grandin warns in the New York Times, “One wonders what goes on in the minds of the architects of President Trump’s foreign policy. It seems as if they have all taken time to study the classic history books on the causes of the world wars — Margaret MacMillan’s The War that Ended Peace or eh, Carr’s The 20 Years’ Crisis — and then said to themselves: That’s exactly where we want to take the world.”
To dig into what the fascist Trump regime’s escalation against Venezuela means for Venezuela, for the region and for the growing danger of wider war, here is my interview with Matthew Hoh, recorded via sub stack live on Thursday December 18. Again, my sincere apologies for the poor sound quality on this interview. We, meaning I, am learning this new platform, and we’ll have it solved before we, meaning I, do one again.
All right, tonight, we’re going to be digging into Venezuela and the fascist way of war, because what we’re seeing right now is a regime that is asserting that mass killing is legal simply because they say so, and it is nothing short of unvarnished, raw power exercised and then celebrated. Trump is escalating threats, moves towards war on Venezuela and openly reviving the Monroe Doctrine or the “Donroe doctrine,” and this alone should be setting off alarm bells, serious concerns for those who may be on the fence. I just want to make clear, and I know that today’s conversation is going to help make clear, that Venezuela is not a distraction.
This is not a distraction, this is not a side issue. It is a warning sign, and while Trump is most certainly unleashing madness, there is a method behind it, and we need to understand it to politically defeat it, and that’s why I am so honored to be joined by Matthew Hoh tonight, or I should say, this afternoon. It’s this afternoon. Matthew is a former Marine and former State Department official who served in and then was the first to resign over the unjust war in Afghanistan, all the way back in 2009. He is currently a fellow with the Eisenhower Media Network, and I just want to welcome Matt. Thanks for joining me to break down what’s happening and where this trajectory is leading.
Matthew Hoh 13:59
Yeah, well, thank you for having me join you. It is very troubling, and as much as we want to say Venezuela may be about the release of the Epstein files, or whatever type of wag the dog, type of experience we’ve seen in the past, and there’s elements that are true of course. There is something here that is incredibly insidious and points to larger designs for the hemisphere by the Trump insurgency?
Sam Goldman 14:23
Exactly what I wanted to get into, Matthew. When you look at Trump’s drive towards war on Venezuela, what is jumping out to you immediately today?
Matthew Hoh 14:33
Well, one, there’s the Imperial inertia. This is nothing new, right? This is the fifth presidency that has had their sights on Venezuela. It really starts with the Bill Clinton administration cautioning, warning Hugo Chavez not to go too far after Chavez wins election in 98 and starts to put some of his economic, particularly his nationalist programs, into place or into motion. But then, certainly it’s the George W. Bush. Administration that really starts to focus on Venezuela. In 2002 of course, you have the first coup by the American government against the Venezuelan Government.
So, five coups this century in Venezuela, that we know of, put forward by the American government. Sanctions begin, I believe, in 2007 and there’s been twelve rounds of sanctions. You know, the Obama administration ratchets those up. But then it’s the first Trump administration that really drops very draconian sanctions onto Venezuela. And you really start to see that people of Venezuela suffer, the economy, suffer the migration crisis, really blossom, if you will. And so Biden administration, I don’t think you could say they escalated it dramatically, the situation with Venezuela, but they maintained it.
That’s where you get “imperial inertia,” this idea that the Empire is much stronger, much greater than any single president, this idea that we want to call it the deep state, the permanent state, the war machine, however, you want to just describe the military industrial complex’s role within the foreign policy establishment, and then the overall metaphysical needs of empire. They have culminated in? now, in this timing where it’s right for the United States to begin operations, begin a war, to finalize what was begun, maybe more than 25 years ago.
Sam Goldman 16:22
Almost one year into Trump’s second term, what is the overall status of the U.S. military engagements globally? Where are troops? Special Operations? Where are they expanding that people aren’t paying attention to, especially as Trump claims he’s ended all wars and even gets rewarded for it?
Matthew Hoh 16:47
The American military is engaged around the world, whether it’s aboard 750 military bases in, I think it’s 80 countries, that presence is still there. The tempo, the scale and the scope of America’s military operations are significantly different than, say, through the George W. Bush, first half of Barack Obama administrations, but not dissimilar to what we saw in the first Trump administration, Biden administration.
You’ve seen whether it was the largest naval battle, that’s how the United States Navy phrased it, the largest naval battle since the end of World War II, in the Red Sea, where the United States Navy essentially had to retreat, where they were unable to accomplish their mission of defeating the Houthis, defeating the Yemenis, taking back control of the Red Sea. This is something that the Trump administration tried, and the Biden administration tried as well, and he’s defeated the American Navy twice.
Certainly, the operations in support of Israel, in Israel’s 12 day war against Iran, not limited to simply the B2 bomber strikes that provided the theater, provided the performance to declare an end to that war, but rather the things that weren’t reported on, the high volumes of sorties by American combat aircraft and support aircraft, either shoot down Iranian drones, shoot down Iranian ballistic missiles, refuel Israeli aircraft as well. Then too, the number of air defense interceptor missiles that were fired. In that you see a scale and a scope in the Middle East that you find in other administrations. The large expenditure of munitions was quite dramatic, and in terms of the billions of dollars at this cost. You have in Somalia something that’s completely unreported.
You’ve had, I think the count is now about 115 American airstrikes, the mix of manned and unmanned aircraft, but I think mostly drones carrying out a level of warfare in Somalia that is quite startling, particularly when you compare it to the lack of information that’s available about it, the lack of reporting. I think most people don’t know that we have carried out an airstrike in Somalia nearly every second or every third day of this year. And so you see those types of operations continuing, as well as the operations utilizing both airstrikes and commandos in Syria and in Iraq.
You have AFRICOM conducting missions throughout Africa, most of which we’re not aware of. So when you look at the numbers, you’re finding that the United States is engaged militarily in at least 15 countries around the world, whether these are airstrikes or those commando raids, with our commandos partnered with local forces. And of course, that doesn’t touch the idea of how we use proxy forces. What is unique, I guess, in terms of our modern era, the post cold war era, is the emphasis on Latin America. I think yesterday was the 26th attack on a boat in the Caribbean in the Pacific, you know, so 99 people killed. You know, Trump is correct.
At least in the modern era, we haven’t seen an armada, as they like to say, assembled in the Western Hemisphere, as he has off the coast of Venezuela, the threats, not just to Venezuela but to Colombia and to Mexico, have been well documented, very clearly, put out there, you know, well organized leaks to The Wall Street Journal, to the New York Times, et cetera, to ensure that the world knows that this is what the United States is planning.
Sam Goldman 20:21
It’s a very good and right thing that the majority of people, if they’re paying attention and asked about it, would look in horror and disgust at the illegal and mob? bombings that Trump has been engaged in in Venezuela. It’s good that there is not support for it, and yet, we have seen how this regime disregards all of that. It’s not like it’s going to be be hemmed in by that.
Matthew Hoh 20:45
Things in the Data for Progress (report) would be what was, 82% of Americans say that any military actions the United States carries out should comply with international law. 82% so you do see how some of the pushback, how some of the education, trying to inform people, have people understand what’s actually occurring, has that effect on the American public in meanwhile? Again, an example that idea of 40% support troops in Mexico, that conversation has been very limited. There was conversation about that prior to Trump’s election win last year, and some conversation last year, but not nearly the amount that you would think that would engender that type of support. But the disturbing thing about that is that that’s the reflexive position of many Americans, that the way to handle situations, whether they be foreign or domestic, is through violence based solutions, right?
Sam Goldman 21:34
Exactly. I mean to me that that points to the fascism at the heart of (it) and that there is the overt brute force and terror being an attractive solution to a section of the society, and that’s something that needs to be full-throatedly refused. I wanted to return to some of the Venezuelan developments from this past week and get a better understanding of their significance. We had the seizure of the tanker. We have the blockade on the Venezuelan oil tankers and blockades are often, you know, seen as, in itself, among some legal scholars, an act of war itself. And so I wanted to just get your take on. How should we be understanding the significance of these acts, what they tell you about this regime’s moves and how it relates to the total disregard for international law.
Matthew Hoh 22:23
A blockade is an act of war. That’s the way it’s historically been understood under international law. It’s illegal, whether it’s sanctions or actual, physically putting your naval ships in the path of other ships and preventing them from moving that type of, you know, traditional naval blockade, those are what’s called unilateral course of measures, and those are illegal under international law. And I think that’s something that’s frustrating for a lot of us who are observing this to see how the American media doesn’t seem to understand that.
They seem to act as if the sanctions put in place by the United States, while they de facto have the power of law, because of the United States’ primacy in the financial and monetary and economic systems. You have this lack of understanding that this is not international law. So whether it’s sanctions on Venezuela, sanctions on Iran, sanctions on China, whoever, these are, not sanctions that are enacted by the United Nations Security Council and something that would be secured by a decision by the International Court of Justice. You know this, it falls outside of the system that we created following World War II, the United Nations system.
The blockade, the sanctions, as I said earlier, I think the first sanction was 2005 and they were continually ratcheted up, up until the first Trump administration, when they were really harshly put in place that, of course, caused the Venezuelan economy to suffocate massive harm to the Venezuelan people. You look at groups like the Center for Economic Policy Research, some of their studies have shown that tens of thousands of Venezuelans have died because of these sanctions and unable to get medication. They’re unable to get parts for machines and hospitals, but all the crimes that occur when a nation like the United States carries out economic warfare against another nation, particularly a weaker nation.
So you’ve had this stranglehold of sanctions on Venezuela for roughly eight years now or so, and now with this latest maneuver, whether it’s the no fly zone or it is this naval blockade, the idea is to completely suffocate Venezuela, to completely drown it. With the no fly zone, of course, people can imagine any nation, but a nation as large as Venezuela, which is twice the size of Iraq. The idea being that the inability to operate on a practical daily basis as a society without air travel, how difficult that would be, how destructive that would be, let alone the pressure, the stress it puts on the population.
You couple that then with this blockade, that we may see American naval ships performing as a.full time duty, and we may see more ships, more U.S. Navy vessels and Coast Guard vessels brought in to enforce this. And this may then bring about the conflict, the Gulf of Tonkin type incident to allow for a formal state of warfare to begin. But with the oil, you know, Venezuela is a Petro state. It has been dependent upon oil for decades. Roughly 25% of its GDP comes from its oil industry, and about 90% of its export revenues come from oil. Most of that is on the black market, or illegal, as the American press would describe it.
Again, it’s not illegal. American sanctions are not legal. The blockade is not legal, but you know, to use the parlance, illegal. So you can imagine that if the economy is already at this state, and you’re going to take away the one source of revenue the government has in terms of exports, what that’s going to do? You know, you can see inflation going up. You can see the currency being devalued. You can see just a greater shortage of goods and material greater than had been so this pressure, this stress being put on the Venezuelan people, very akin to the policies against Iraq from 1991 to 2003 and we all understand how that worked out, awful, harmful, ruinous effect on the Iraqi People.
Hundreds of thousands were killed because of those sanctions, and there’s no reason to expect anything different if this is a scenario that they play out where we’re not going to attack Venezuela. We’re not going to do an actual regime change ala Iraq, or say, Libya 2011 but we are going to carry out these sanctions, these blockades, the no fly zone, yeah, we will launch air strikes from time to time to cause problems, cause friction, put fear into the Venezuelan military and governmental infrastructure, you know. I mean, so you can see they’re dusting off an old playbook here, possibly.
Sam Goldman 26:54
You had alluded some to it. But where do you see this heading? What do you see the trajectory being?
Matthew Hoh 26:59
I mean, nowhere good, you know. I mean like not to be glib, but there is no best case scenario here, because even what I just described there, where you can imagine the Venezuelans hanging on, the government, staying in power, people of Venezuela finding ways to cope with the economic warfare against them, with the sanctions and no fly zone, etc, it eventually will lead to the same place the Iraq policy led to. The Empire will not wait. The Empire will not abide being put off like this.
And so the impertinence, as well as the embarrassment of Venezuela holding out, I mean, the fact that Cuba’s been able to do this for all these years, and you see, the thorn that Cuba is in the side for both American neoconservatives and liberal interventionists, Venezuela is degrees beyond that, because it doesn’t have the same legacy, and because the way in which Venezuela has been approached in the last 25 years, compared to say, Cuba over the last 60 plus years, gives a degree of urgency to the American administration that they have to settle, they have to finalize.
The other aspect of that too, then, and I’ll come back to some other scenarios in a moment. But you have a Secretary of State, you have those around him, throughout Washington, D.C. including Democrats, who believe that a domino effect could occur here. If we can get Venezuela to collapse, then Nicaragua will collapse. And if we can get Nicaragua to collapse, then Cuba will collapse, I don’t know if they want to. And now add Colombia into that as well, right? Since you have a socialist in power in Colombia, certainly Brazil is something that irks them.
But this trifecta, this unholy trio, for Washington, D.C. of this one, Nicaragua and Cuba, is something that has to go, particularly when you look at the Trump administration’s worldview. How they understand that we are part of a multipolar world and that United States must reinforce its own sphere of influence. We have to re-center ourselves. We can no longer be over extended, and we have to shore ourselves or anchor ourselves in our own atmosphere for a variety of reasons, including to have a reliable source of resources.
You know, the other scenarios you’re looking at is say they do launch regime change operations. And you know, regime change war and Maduro does fall, whether he flees or he hides in a wholesome? place, or whatever it is, and then you have Venezuelan opposition take power well now usurped that pretty substantial segment of the population that hasn’t just held economic and political power for 25 plus years, but has an ideological identity to this struggle with the United States that they’re just simply not going to abide such a usurpation. Okay, so Maduro is out of power. Gonzalez is now the new president. You are going to have an insurgency against them.
You’re going to have a violent resistance. You’re going to have some form of civil war. If say, Maduro falls out of power, and the opposition is just simply not organized enough. They start fighting amongst themselves, or they just don’t have the wherewithal to take power. Well, then, you know, there’s a vacuum, and it looks an awful lot like Libya did following the fall of Gaddafi. And then, of course, there is this idea that maybe Maduro doesn’t fall, that the regime change doesn’t work. He’s survived five coup attempts already.
Even more probably, what if he doesn’t fall? What then happens, and then terms of strengthening his government, and, in fact, making it more repressive. At that point, does a Maduro government have to effectively crush all opposition? Have to repress everything in Venezuela in order to maintain its existence? Right? So, pushing the Maduro government into a reality of America’s creation that we say that, we say that’s how it is now. We know it’s not that’s how it is now, but certainly a military regime change operation to remove Maduro from power could put that in place.
And then, plus, there are however many scenarios that we could come up with, but those, I think, are just kind of the major ones, that you could probably bet on, on, on Cal sheet right, or polymort or something like that. Unfortunately, I don’t see the American planners walking through that, you know. I don’t see see them thinking, you know, they they explanation, or the discussion about, okay, three months into this, what does it look like? Six months into it, what are the likelihood that the branches that can come from this?
Sam Goldman 31:20
Some of what you made me think of as you were talking you were talking about the strategy of the regime. When I’m speaking of this regime, I’m speaking of the Trump regime, and you kind of alluded to their national security strategy and what they’re trying to do with Venezuela, and how that’s bigger than Venezuela, but Venezuela is really, really indicative of a broader strategy. I am talking about that last week, the Trump regime released a new national security strategy. It’s a sweeping blueprint for fascist rule in the U.S. and across the globe. It’s a document that, of course, is a Trump document. It’s full with lies and threats and open declarations of domination on multiple fronts.
Matthew Hoh 32:04
Before I forget, I want to make a note of what you just said, because you’re one of the few commentaries I’ve heard who mentioned that there’s an intersection there between domestic and foreign policy, that that document is both that there’s no daylight for most of the Trump administration between their domestic and foreign policies, particularly with regard to the Western Hemisphere. You know you can see a guy like Stephen Miller who sees what’s happening with Venezuela, whether it’s potential regime change or the murder of people in boats out at sea, as being integral to the success of his purging, right? his cleansing of America. What the ICE raids are part of the same policies that these airstrikes murdering people on the ocean are.
Sam Goldman 32:43
I really appreciate you lifting that up, and we’ll definitely be talking more about that. There’s a lot more to talk about regarding the NSS than we’re going to get into today, but I do want to talk about the Trump corollary to the Monroe Doctrine, or as it’s been called, The Donroe doctrine. What is Trump announcing to the world, about us authority over Latin America, and what is the implications of this?
Matthew Hoh 33:11
Oh, I think he’s announcing it sacrosanct. I didn’t see the quote, but I was told this morning, Pete Hegseth was referencing Manifest Destiny. It’s the Doctrine of Discovery. This is our God given right to do this. God…..We see the entitlement given to us by the divine in so much of American exceptionalism and so much of American policies. You know this idea of revisiting and returning from the Monroe Doctrine? Pete Hegseth says, says the other day, that Donald Trump’s predecessors have forgotten it.
And I do believe that’s true to a degree. Certainly, if you look prior to World War II, the scale and scope of American involvement in Latin America, you write, the constant coups, occupations, wars, etc. And then, of course, during the Cold War, the same thing too, the number of of coups and manipulations of elections and things like that, as well as outright support for dictatorships and military juntas. There was this presence of the United States in Latin America that wasn’t continued in the post cold war era. And I think that’s because with the assumption of the United States as the world’s sole superpower as the hegemon, its vision went further.
So certainly the United States did these types of things throughout the Cold War around the world, just as we did prior to World War II as well. So certainly Spanish American War, you go back to Hawaii, you know, et cetera. But the idea being is that I believe the American administrations following the Cold War saw the same type of entitlement, the same right that previous administrations had seen in the Western Hemisphere now extended throughout the globe. And so certainly this begins, I believe, even before the end of the Cold War, say, with Jimmy Carter Administration declaring the Persian Gulf as an area of strategic importance to United States.
But you know, certainly following the end of the Cold War, this need for the United States as the sole superpower to maintain its primacy everywhere. And this is something that, again, you don’t have to agree with with it, but it is something that you see in Trump’s articulation, his government’s articulation of their national security strategy, the idea that the United States is over extended, and I think most people, objectively, would agree with that, unless you are a dead ender, unless you are like the previous administrations, with the idea of giving up any degree of the control of the world by the United States is anathema.
That’s how you can’t mean, my God, you know you can’t do that. You know the dead hand. You know you can imagine there is no way that a Bush, Obama, Biden administration was ever going to let go of that role as the sole superpower, as the hegemon and the Trump administration, I do believe, sees the multipolar world as not something that’s coming, but it’s already here. And so the idea being is that the United States acting in a way in which there is no multipolar world, or that something that’s on the horizon is jeopardizing America’s strength, is jeopardizing America’s ability to conduct itself in the world it’s over extended.
So this idea of focusing on core American interests, recentering or consolidating the Empire, particularly, say, with the Western Hemisphere, ensuring that China has been removed from the Western Hemisphere. I’m realizing that we’ve been talking for a while now, and we finally just brought up China, because China is such a huge factor in all this. In terms of, when Washington, D.C. looks at the map of the hemisphere and they see that China is the largest trading partner for most of the hemisphere, they go crazy. It makes them insane. The idea that, you know, this is part of it, and that we’re going to be anchored here in the Western Hemisphere, and then our priorities will not be the entire world, but there’ll be something more orderly.
You know, that is the idea to ensure that the United States is just not a member of the multi polar world, or not that it will just simply thrive in a multi polar world. But the idea is to dominate the multipolar world. So the idea that this national security strategy, by embracing the multi polar world, is some evidence of America’s retreat, is wrong, because the idea is it’s still a dominant. You begin that by ensuring that your foundation, your base, your sphere of influence, is intact. And so I think this national security strategy document is incredibly important. It’s full of all types of stuff, like you said, Sam, all types of rhetoric, all types of racism.
That does inform these policymakers, though. It’s easy to dismiss that when no, that really does inform their worldview, that really does inform how and why they decide on what’s a priority. You see with this national security strategy, something that will continue throughout this Trump administration. Now, how much they carry it out, how much they act on it. Just a few weeks ago, Donald Trump was talking about the need to go to war in Nigeria. You know? I mean, you make the case for the resources in Africa, but there’s certainly whether, if the reports are true, that America is making a theory guaranteeing? Ukraine that would be completely in contradiction to what the National Security Strategy says we should be doing in places like that. We’ll see how much administration actually sticks to it.
Sam Goldman 38:15
There’s a logic to their strategy, not that that’s a strategy or a logic to uphold, but it internally works where it’s not just Trump is a madman. There’s a strategy there. One of the things that, in what you were saying struck me as significant, and I think that it has not been the focus, I would say, of most commentary on it, is the ideological influence you know that someone like Pete Hegseth has leading the Department of War, and what it means to have a Christian fascism warrior, and how that shapes so much. And I think that that too is is evident in their strategy. And then the other thing that one of your help parsing out, I guess, is you have talked about the continuity the U.S. has invaded, overthrown and sanctioned economically strangled Latin American countries for a very long time, and that’s imperialism and it’s not new, and yet there is something new and changed here. What do we see as new, as different, as something that is precedent setting?
Matthew Hoh 39:27
I think, you know, one of the things is that the tie into domestic policy here, where I think you’ve always had anti immigration policies, you know, in the United States, right? Anti migrant policies in the United States throughout, you know, different eras, but in terms of the integration into foreign policy, you can imagine, I think, the Secretary of State, slash National Security Advisor, Marco Rubio, explaining all this to Donald Trump, and certainly bringing up the oil, which we’ve hardly touched upon. But the oil is, of course, such a huge thing, right? You know, but I know that.
Sam Goldman 39:59
The oil that is the U.S.’s?? you mean? If you ask Trump or Stephen Miller, it’s our oil, yeah.
Matthew Hoh 40:06
So you can imagine Marco Rubio, who’s also been obsessed with this region for his whole life, right? I mean, and this has been a personal crusade of his, to take back Latin America, not just confined to Cuba, where his parents are from, but the entirety of the hemisphere, you can see him whispering all these things, saying all these things, into Donald Trump’s ear. But on the other side, you’ve got Stephen Miller, the Homeland Security Advisor, who has really elevated that position. I mean, there has been, I think, 18 previous Homeland Security Advisors, and I don’t know if I could name one out loud. I think I have to Google who previous Homeland Security Advisors, were.
Stephen Miller has elevated that post to the same level as National Security Advisor, and that is really something. And so I think as Rubio’s talking into one ear, Miller is talking into the other. And those things are dovetailing. Again, this idea that the success of the CBP ICE mission to cleanse the United States is tied into the success of America’s taking back Latin America. And you know that there is a Nexus here that is not just a simple dovetailing, but these things are interdependent.
That’s an aspect of the policy that is unique, certainly the idea of China being a chief component of this. And the idea of trying to drive the Chinese out of the hemisphere that I think as well, you did not have those external presences prior, the United States essentially made sure everybody was out. The other thing I see, as well too, is what makes this Donroe doctrine significantly, I don’t want to say more conservative. It is larger than Latin America. I believe the Don roe doctrine extends into the Arctic. It extends into Greenland. You know, there’s what’s called the Greenland, Iceland UK line.
And that line there, I think, is the outer limit, is the eastern boundary of America’s sphere of influence. And so now, when you start thinking about, what was this whole thing last year, about Canada becoming the 51st state, or about taking Greenland for national security purposes, and we all kind of scoffed at it, and, like, rolled our eyes, and what the heck are they talking about? Okay? Now it makes sense, all right. Now I see how that all fits in, particularly when it’s this idea of having a bastion, having some type of foundation of reliable resources to extract. Certainly, you can also make the arguments that the Trump administration makes about how previous administrations have not been forward looking enough.
And again, we’re not agreeing with it, but there is a logic to it, in a sense of where the United States is right now compared to its needs for rare earth minerals and metals. Everybody understands that delta. Everyone understands that deficit. I’m sure there are plenty of graduate students at Johns Hopkins and Georgetown and Stanford who are writing papers on the national security implications of Greenland, focusing on minerals as well as access to the Arctic. So I think the Donroe doctrine, this corollary to the Monroe Doctrine. I think it expands the sphere of influence significantly, you know, north and eastward, as opposed to just only focusing southward.
Sam Goldman 43:15
That was really helpful. And I think that one of the things Lina, I think, had put in the chat is that every time she hears the phrase spheres of influence, who can’t help but hear World War. I think that one of the things that strikes me as different as precedent setting. One is the hostility towards any pretense of legality, any previous administrations, as much as I despised and detested their actions towards the people of the world. They did at least pretend to follow law. And this is like pretend to use intelligence claims or whatever it might have been, there was that, and this is as Hegseth says, that says no more, like tepid legality or whatever it is, however he said it, but it’s like open contempt of international law, your own law.
The other thing that strikes me, in addition to like the throwing out any pretense of legality, is the celebration of murder, of killing, of this being a war machine, and that being seen. I call it, it’s bloodlust. It’s boastful. It is a celebration of the cruelty, as opposed to, like, trying to push that under the rug, or, you know, say that that is the action of some rogue player or something like that. No, that’s who we are, and we’re proud. And what I’m saying we I’m not talking about Matt and I and, you know, some thing that somebody said about our resources or our needs, I would just say that Matt was talking about the U.S.’s needs.
The U.S.’s wants are not the same as the people who live in the U.S. We are not our government. And thank goodness, right? I just wanted to just point out those things that I see as being alarming and divergences, you know, I’m looking at the time. And thank you for giving me this much time, giving us this much time Matt. As we close out, first off, if there’s anything that we didn’t talk about that you are thinking, wow, people that care about Refuse Fascism need to know this. I’d love to hear that. But also, if you were to leave us with one warning about where things are headed that people are not paying attention to, and one responsibility that we can evade. What would they be?
Matthew Hoh 45:25
Well, I think let me do the responsibility first. It is to be well prepared and well trained, and particularly as we see ICE and other federal law enforcement organizations coming into our communities and most of our local police forces just standing back and allowing them to do as they wish in their communities, the responsibility for us to be prepared, which includes, you know, attending trainings. So whatever organizations are in your communities, we have a great organization here in North Carolina called CIEMBRA, you know, I mean, attend their trainings, get prepared, and then don’t expect that when ICE comes to your community, that’s when everything’s going to be put together.
There are already people working in your community to prepare for that. Plug in now. And so I would say that’s the responsibility we have, is that if we recognize this threat, and we’re not actively working right now to prepare for it, whatever capacity it is, even I don’t even have a whistle kind of thing, you know, that’s what you use. I do actually have a whistle to do this, using as an example. But what I’ll say to then not underestimate, and I don’t think anyone on this call is going to do this, but that the people who are in power, let’s say this, these are men and women who, you know, as Fyodor Dostoevsky would say, are intoxicated by blood and power.
And we have to understand that, that when you said saying this before about the cruelty being the point, that’s how empire works. It cannot accept any type of impertinence. It cannot accept any type of affront or resistance. Its power has to be continually assured, and the way it does that is through violence, of course. And you have men and women who are someone we can call our con men. Others are crooks, you know, I mean, like, certainly we can disparage each and every one of them for good reasons. But they’re also men and women who understand the political, media and economic system of this country in a way that they were able to manipulate it, manage it, and climb it to get to the positions where they are now.
And the large majority of them are sadists. When you see a person like Kristi Noem, when we see a person like Stephen Miller, I’m blanking on the name of the guy who’s in charge of Customs and Border Patrol, these are a lot of sadists. And then the final thing I’ll say is this gets to you, [when] you listen to that, and then you could say, Okay, that’s about the individuals. It’s not because there are structures and policies in place that predate this administration greatly, these ICE agents, these CBP officers, these federal law agencies that are moving through our communities. They didn’t just appear in the last year. It wasn’t like these ICE agents were created by some conjured out cauldron or something like that, by the wizard Donald Trump or Stephen Miller. These are men and women who’ve been a part of that force for years, for decades. And I’m sure movement folks on this podcast understand how supportive the Democratic Party has been for ICE, how supportIve it has been of these inhumane immigration actions, you know, going back decades now, you know.
So I would say it’s that as well as that, well, we have an immediate problem. We’re in this immediate problem because there is a legacy of infrastructure and policy that has enabled it, you know. And we could talk about the murders out in the ocean by the drones. The precedent for that was set decades ago. The precedent for that was set with the George W. Bush administration. The fact that nothing was done to hold the George Bush administration to account for any of its crimes, whether it be overseas or here, no extend that through the Obama administration. O
bama murders American citizens with drones from Obama administration, as part of of their practice, executes double tap strikes against first responders, and there’s no accountability for that, right? I mean, you know, lets go through all the litany of crimes carried out by previous administrations, and that’s why I get worried when I see these calls in Congress for investigations where it’s investigating one personality, where it’s investigating those who are in command, rather than the policies and the infrastructure that give the actors real power to do these things, and the unity to these men and women in power.
So I think that’s, you know, what I’m looking at, and what I’m trying to find a way for us to address, as when we go through these what is going to be a long period for us, because even if we do get rid of this Republican administration in 2028 we’re going to have a Gavin Newsom or a Pete Buttigieg or a Gretchen Whitmer administration that’s going to have the same fundamental policies and infrastructure in place. It just won’t have the garishness to it. It won’t have the shock value to it.
Sam Goldman 45:25
That’s a whole other conversation, so I’ll talk about that sometime soon. Thanks again, Matt. [Matt: All right. Happy holidays everyone]. Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism and being part of this movement. While we must stay alert to fascist escalations and moments that demand immediate action, we also have to deepen our understanding. I know that’s why you’re listening, so over the holidays and into January, I encourage you to study, reflect and talk with one another. Check out our recommended film and book list linked in the show notes. Use it on your own, with friends, with family, gather with others in cafes, libraries or other shared spaces. These films and readings will help sharpen our understanding of the fascist threat and the strategy needed to defeat it, so we can act with greater clarity, confidence and collective power and bring forward the millions that are required to stop this regime.
As always, we love hearing from you, and so we’d love to hear your thoughts after you watch any of the films or read the books, write us at info, at refuse fascism.org during this holiday season, if you’re looking for meaningful ways to show your care for humanity. You can support the movement by shopping at the Refuse Fascism shops linked in the show notes, or by becoming a patron to keep the podcast going and growing. Visit patreon.com/refusefascsim. If you’re not in a position to give monthly consider making an end of the year gift in honor of someone. It makes a great last minute holiday gift you can give via Venmo @refusefascism or visit refusefascism.org and hit the donate button.
Every act of support big or small strengthens the non violent power we urgently need. You can also help for $0 by sharing this episode by rating and reviewing us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen, and by dropping a comment on our socials or YouTube, every share helps build this fight. Thanks to Richie Marini, Mark Tinkleman and Lina Thorne for producing this episode, we’ll be back with our end of year episode on December 29, it’s a Monday. Until then, In the Name of Humanity, We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America!
Matthew Hoh 45:37
I think there’s also the reality that if we wait till then, I don’t think that people fully grasp how unrecognizable not just this country but the world will be. I think that there’s a lot of very deep denial. Things will always be stable. The pendulum will always swing back. That this democracy is so strong that this couldn’t happen in what this regime has been able to do in the almost year that they’ve been in power, I don’t think people have fully looked at the totality of it, of the momentum, the direction, and I think that people are deluding themselves, quite frankly, if they think that this regime is going to accept an election that they don’t win.
And that’s not to counter what you’re saying. It’s to join it and to say that for any of the future that we want, you want a future where these these structures that are enabling the fascism prior to power, you want those to change? Well, first you got to get rid of this fascism. I think that for people that are interested in that, they should go to refusefascism.org they should read the People’s Indictment of Donald Trump. And it has the mandate from the people that Trump must go now if Trump attacks Venezuela while calling in advance for 5:00 p.m. protests at the White House in the event that that happens, and if it happens at night, 5:00 p.m. the next day, I want to just express so much appreciation, Matt for taking the time to walk us through this, to help sort it out, and for all the work that you’ve been doing to sound the alarm on the danger of these war moves and the implications for for not just the whole region, but but the whole world. If people want to connect more with you and your work, where should they go?
Matthew Hoh 49:38
I’m on X or Twitter at Matthew P. Hoh, P as in Patrick, same username on Instagram, and then you can find me on sub stack mats and thoughts on noir piece. So just look up Matthew Hoh. Last Name, spelled H, O, H, we’re here on sub stack, yeah, so it’s probably connected on here somehow, and then I’m with the Eisenhower Media Network. No, you know, bring up the whole designated, the domestic terrorist designation thing, right? Yeah, we could have done this for we could have gone through the night.