Against the Mass Deportation Machine in the Sky

Episode 262

Trump and Hegseth have declared that with the renamed Dept. of War, the U.S. is “going on offense.” Sam digests this, along with the news that unknown people have been murdered by this “most lethal” military through random strikes on boats recently near Venezuela and during Trump 1.0 just off the coast with North Korea. Then, she speaks with flight attendant and organizer Alex Roberts about organizing efforts to remove the airline industry from participation in ICE’s mass deportation efforts. Read his piece ⁠Commercial airlines are for consumers and cargo, not ICE deportations⁠ in The Tennessean and sign the petition ⁠Stop Commercial Airlines from Operating Deportation Flights⁠. Follow Alex on Bluesky: @alexander-roberts.bsky.social.

There is no living with this fascism: ⁠The time has come for…THE FALL of the TRUMP FASCIST REGIME – Beginning November 5, 2025 – Washington DC⁠

Mentioned in this episode:

Music for this episode: Penny the Snitch by Ikebe Shakedown

Episode 262 Against the Mass Deportation Machine in the Sky

Sun, Sep 07, 2025 11:11AM • 40:05

Alex Roberts 00:00

The four major U.S. air carriers in the United States of America are conducting deportation flights. We were originally told that we had seven prisoners on board. It was seven women and children. You could see the fear etched on their face. The airlines allowing usage of their fleet, they are now accomplices in this increasingly lawless mass deportation effort by the Trump regime. It’s callous, it’s cruel, it’s corrupt, it’s inhumane. It’s gotta stop right now with this corrupt administration. Every one of us has a responsibility to stand up and to do something.

Sam Goldman 00:57

Welcome to Episode 262 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism works to unite all who can be united to drive out the Trump fascist regime through massive, sustained, nonviolent resistance. Today, we’re sharing an interview with Alex Roberts, a union representative for flight attendants, who is organizing to get commercial airlines to stop facilitating deportations. We want to give a big thank you to everyone who rates and reviews the show. It really helps us reach more people who are looking for how they can refuse fascism.

Here’s a recent review that shows just how important it is that we get your help spreading the pod. Ruminating_Stoic wrote a review over at Podcast Addict. They gave us five stars, and they wrote: “Sad that I just found this one this summer. Passionate and motivating.” Well Ruminating_Stoic. We are so glad that you found the pod, and we agree that it is sad. So everybody who is able to write a review right after you listen to this episode to help us grow this audience, this community.

Before today’s interview, I want to talk about seven developments from this past week that underscore that, yes, the time has come for the fall of the Trump fascist regime. The New York Times revealed that back in 2019 Trump secretly green lit a Navy SEAL operation in North Korea. It went catastrophically wrong. Unarmed civilians were killed, their bodies dumped, and Congress was never told. It’s illegal. It’s how fascism operates; brute, terroristic violence, absolute contempt for the rule of law. Now fast forward to this week. On September 2, the U.S. military carried out a deathly gangster style strike in the southern Caribbean, killing 11 people on a boat Trump claimed was tied to Venezuelan cartels.

A high ranking Pentagon official told The Intercept: “The U.S. is now directly targeting civilians. Drug traffickers may be criminals, but they aren’t combatants. When Trump fired the military’s top lawyers, the rest saw the writing on the wall. They’re now a rubber stamp complicit in this crime.” Just days later, Trump sent ten stealth fighter planes to Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico, a U.S. colony, is being militarized as a staging ground for war. The Trump regime has deployed eight warships, several surveillance planes, and even an attack submarine to the region as it ups its lawless attacks on Venezuela. This comes on top of last month’s reporting in the New York Times that Trump secretly signed a directive giving himself the power to use the U.S. military against certain Latin American drug cartels he designated as “terrorist organizations.”

What does that mean?, you wonder… Well, Trump is claiming the authority to define who counts as a terrorist group, decide who is a member, order the U.S. military to target and kill them, and do it all in secret with no review by the courts. Meanwhile, at home, even as D.C.’s Attorney General files suit against Trump’s takeover of the Capitol, the regime is extending its mobilization of the National Guard in D.C., and Trump has signed an executive order renaming the Department of Defense back to the Department of War. Give a listen to Trump and Pete Hegseth.

Donald Trump 03:46

And so Pete, you started off by saying the Department of Defense, and somehow it didn’t sound good to me. [some chuckles in the room] You know, it didn’t sound good: defense. What are we defense? Why are we defense? So it used to be called the Department of War, and it had a stronger sound. And as you know, we won World War One. We won World War Two. We won everything. Now we have a Department of Defense, we’re defenders. I don’t know. If you, if you people want to, standing behind me, if you take a little vote, if you want to change it back to what it was when we used to win wars all the time, that’s okay with me. All right. [Hegseth: It’s coming Mr. President.] You let me know if you want to do it. I think Department of War. It just sounded bad. He said: Sir, on behalf of the Department of Defense… defense, I don’t want to be defense only. We want defense, but we want offense too, if that’s okay. So you’ll make a decision.

Pete Hegseth 04:26

It’s about restoring. Words matter. It’s restoring — as you’ve gotten us to, Mr. President, restoring — the warrior ethos, restoring victory and clarity as an end state, restoring intentionality to the use of force. So at your direction, Mr. President, the War Department is going to fight decisively, not endless conflicts. It’s gonna fight to win, not, not not to lose. We’re going to go on offense, not just on defense; maximum lethality, not tepid legality; violent effect, not politically correct. We’re gonna raise up warriors, not just defenders. So this war department, Mr. President, just like America, is back. Thank you for your leadership and your clarity. We’re gonna set the tone for this country. America first, peace through strength, brought to you by the War Department.

Sam Goldman 06:10

This is a regime openly embracing raw destructive power. Hence law, international law, domestic law, turning the military into an even sharper weapon of fascist aggression. And Trump isn’t stopping at foreign targets. He’s threatening war on the people of Chicago, invoking Apocalypse Now in the Vietnam War, infamous for the napalm burning of children’s flesh. If you haven’t seen it already, Trump had posted on Truth Social, an AI Generated Image [from] Apocalypse Now with the words, “I love the smell of deportations in the morning. Chicago about to find out why it’s called the Department of War.”

What Trump is winking at in his post, in reference to the people of Chicago and immigrants and black people everywhere is a genocidal slaughter full of rape and mass death, over 3 million killed. The Pentagon has already approved the use of a Navy base outside Chicago to serve as a hub for DHS. Officials say roughly 300 ICE agents will be operating out of Naval Station Great Lakes, with “enhanced operations” beginning this weekend. As Chris Snyder put it this week in his Substack: These developments combined make clear “it is an almost literal sign that Trump does not want the U.S. military under command. He wants a fascist war machine.”

While all this escalates, nearly 500 workers were rounded up in a massive immigration raid at a Hyundai plant in Georgia. The State Department has halted all visa approvals for Palestinians — collective punishment for an entire people. This is fascism. It is not all that has happened this week, but it is all screaming to us that this fascism is upon us now, and it is deadly, and it is deadly serious. We have a genocidal racist in the White House backed by a whole blood thirsty fascist regime. There is no living with this fascism.

There is no living with the MAGA mob that celebrates Trump’s disgusting truth social post that I shared, that cheers on mass deportations, the resurrection of the Confederacy, that applauds troops deployed to Black communities to terrorize youth. There is no living with a government that rules this way. This fascism must be driven out through a mass, relentless, nonviolent uprising right now in the streets of Chicago, the streets of D.C., the streets of Portland, everywhere. Trump threatens to send his goons and everywhere, people refuse to go along.

People need to flood the streets, all building toward November 5, the anniversary of Trump’s election, when we must pour into D.C. in our millions, and not stop until this regime is removed from power. The Fascist Trump Regime Must Go Now! Don’t say we can survive this, because people are already being jailed, deported and killed, and what we’ve seen so far is them just getting started. Don’t say: We’ll get Trump out in the next election, because really what makes you think there will be a free and fair election with troops already in the streets, coup participants pardoned, maps rigged, and Trump rampaging against his enemies?

That’s why Refuse Fascism is calling everyone who can’t, who won’t accept this future to come to Washington, D.C., starting on November 5, to be part of launching the largest non violent mass mobilization in U.S. history, to flood D.C. in our millions and not stop until Trump is removed from power. Nothing short of millions, thousands and millions of people nonviolently driving this regime out measures up to the threat humanity now faces. As I said before, this mass defiance, this mass non-compliance, are needed now. So in that spirit, I want to give cheers to the veterans who took to the streets this week in D.C.

Reporter 1 10:20

These are veterans that did this. Why? Why are you vets? You guys are patriots, flags. Why you?

Jolly Good Ginger 10:27

I raised my right hand to take an oath. I raised my right hand to defend the Constitution, and when I watched the Constitution being burned now, I gotta raise hell.

Reporter 1 10:36

The president says he’s gonna send troops, armed, to Chicago and Baltimore. Says: I don’t know when, but we’re going to send them in.

Jolly Good Ginger 10:44

We’re gonna have veterans on the ground when they get there. We’re gonna have veterans nationwide, wherever Donald Trump deploys National Guard, we’re gonna have veterans on the ground resisting it, protesting it. [There] comes a time where talking is not enough. The time for action is now. The time for talking has come and gone.

Sam Goldman 10:59

To the elected officials raising their voices.

Congressman Al Green (D-TX) 11:04

We have seen a president who has walked on the separation of powers, walked on the notion that you have to have due process before you can be pushed out of the country. We’ve seen what he will do, and we know now that he can do what he tried to do before, and that is, stay on after his term of office is over, we must act now to prevent him from taking over our country. [crowd cheers]

Sam Goldman 11:32

To the thousands who filled the streets of D.C. at the Stop Trump’s Takeover, We are All D.C. Rally and March. [Crowd chanting “Free D.C.”] To those who stood up outside the Naval Station Great Lakes in North Chicago. [Crowd chants over drumming: “We’re not afraid of ICE. Immigrants are welcome here. We’re not afraid of Trump. He will not get what he wants.”]

Sam Goldman 12:15

And the crowds gathering in Chicago as I’m recording this Saturday night saying: No Trump, no troops.

Refuse Fascism 12:21

Donald trump, you racist clown. [crowd repeats] The people will take you down. [crowd repeats]

Sam Goldman 12:32

We see you, we salute you. We cannot hand these fascists the future. In the face of this unprecedented fascist tyranny, nothing less than an unprecedented response is required. What we are calling for is something that all groups, all people with a heart for humanity and a yearning for a just future, are not only invited to be part of, but we need you to be part of this. It is a historic undertaking to have a sustained mobilization of millions in D.C., but we can do this together. We are determined to shake the whole political ground under Trump’s regime.

We’re talking about a massive political earthquake from below that forces a crisis so deep, so undeniable, that the illegitimacy of this fascist regime is laid bare for all to see, because of our determination, because of our relentlessness, because of the power of this massive outpouring that grinds the machinery of this fascist regime to a halt. It’s this that can provoke major realignments across all of society, including inside the very institutions that have so far enabled Trump, making it impossible for Trump and his whole regime to function — impossible for them to remain in power. But it’s only possible if people like you throw all in starting now. Commit to joining us starting November 5. Make your plans now to be there. Share your plans with others. Spread the word far and wide. Donate generously to make this reality. Go to RefuseFascism.org to get organized now. With that, here is my conversation with Alex.

Today on the Refuse Fascism podcast, I am so glad to welcome on Alex Roberts, an aviation worker and a national government affairs representative for a major airline union where he represents nearly 30,000 workers across the country, and he’s organized a petition and a whole effort to stop commercial airlines from operating deportation flights. Welcome Alex, thanks for joining me.

Alex Roberts 14:50

Thank you, Sam. I really appreciate being on, and thank you for your work and that of your team. It’s so important right now. It’s just an honor to be on with you.

Sam Goldman 15:00

What I want to start with is, a lot of people don’t know what a union like yours does or who you represent, and I think that that’s an important context for the conversation about the effort that you’ve undertaken regarding gumming up the works for the Trump regime’s mass deportation effort. So I was hoping you could tell us a little bit about the union you’re part of, who you represent, and what’s inspired you to, kind of, taking a stand that goes beyond like traditional workers rights or things like that.

Alex Roberts 15:29

I appreciate the question. I represent the Association of Professional Flight Attendants Union, and we represent the nearly 30,000 flight attendants at American Airlines, which is the largest airline in the world. Whenever you have the name of your country a part of your brand, I sort of take an extra respect to accountability when it comes to the practices that we deploy. At American Airlines, we have this work group of about 30,000 workers, and through our union, we advocate for worker rights, specific legislation that benefits our work group, but also the broader workforce of America, and we advocate for the rights of our passengers.

There’s approximately 3 million daily travelers in the United States, so it’s a huge group of Americans that are traveling daily. My role as a national government affairs representative, I’m usually on the Hill lobbying for these pro worker pieces of legislation, and then aviation safety legislation as well. The reason I’m interested in this specific sort of advocacy campaign that I’ve taken on is I’m a second generation aviation worker. My mother worked for the airlines for about 25 years. I’ve worked for the airlines for about eight years. For my entire life, I’ve been in and around this industry, and I’ve been so moved by all the good work that people like you and others in the network have been doing in this unprecedented time.

I’ve really taken heed to the instruction that right now, with this corrupt administration, every one of us has a responsibility to stand up and to do something, to make some sort of a change to, like you say, get in the way, as John Lewis said, to get in good trouble. That’s exactly what I’m trying to do in my little section of society here. I had the displeasure of working one of these deportation flights, and I didn’t realize it until it was actually happening. There was a lot of confusion, and we were told inaccurate information. We can talk more about that, but this specific issue sort of fell in my lap, and it was just an injustice that was unfolding in front of my eyes. Again, this is something that I have some control over, and I’m trying to mobilize our work group, but also the broader public to get involved.

Sam Goldman 17:45

Let’s talk a little bit more about how most people don’t know how this mass deportation effort operates. Some people have heard about private planes or that type of thing, but how does a major airline like American Airlines intersect with this mass deportation effort of the Trump regime? Then we can talk about the role that flight attendants are being asked to play in this time.

Alex Roberts 18:15

Basically, the main operating force for the airlines, like so many businesses in America, is greed. So wherever they can get their next dollar, you know, that’s what they’re focused on. Then, two, as we’ve seen with this fascist regime, that companies are sort of bending over backwards to comply with the Trump administration. We’re experiencing that in the airlines, like any other major industry, but I will say that this issue does transcend administrations. It’s especially bad right now because you have a president who doesn’t respect the rule of law, who doesn’t respect due process, they don’t respect habeas corpus and other legal protections. So it’s especially egregious now, don’t get me wrong, but again, this is an issue that really transcends administrations, and I think irrespective of who’s in the Oval Office, commercial airlines should not be in the business of deportation.

Sam Goldman 19:08

How does it work? They’re just putting people on flights? What was your experience with it? Or how does it work?

Alex Roberts 19:15

Yeah, it’s an important question, because the major carriers now no longer utilize contracts with ICE. That’s why I was confused. Just to give you sort of the story here, I was working a flight from D.C. to Phoenix, Arizona. We were originally told that we had seven prisoners on board, and we do transport folks that are in the criminal justice system, so that’s not necessarily abnormal. Seven was abnormal, so we were all a little confused. Whenever they brought these folks down, it was seven women and children, and you could see the fear kind of etched on their face.

That’s when I said: No, wait a second; This is not accurate information; these are not prisoners. In fact, the captain of the aircraft, who initially asked for them to be handcuffed, because he said: I was told these are prisoners, and that’s the protocol. And I said: Now wait a second, this is not right. I went with the agent that escorted them down. He had no identifying badge or affiliation. So I said: Sir, can you tell me who are you with? What’s going on here? He told me he worked for ICE, he was an ICE agent. That’s when I said: Okay, so these are not prisoners, then, right? He said: No, they’re not. I said: Well, who are they? What’s going on? He said: Oh, these are immigration deportees. I was confused, because in 2018 we organized an internal campaign to get the major carriers to disassociate from the family separation policy, which worked. The major airlines all release statements of support saying that: Oh, we won’t use our aircraft to separate families, our company is all about bringing people together.

Obviously, something has changed since 2018, so I asked this ICE agent, I said: I was under the impression that we no longer have contracts with ICE. He said: That’s right, you don’t. He said: But what we do now is we go on AA.com or we go on Delta.com and we book seats as if we’re regular passengers, sort of on an individual basis, and we use those seats for deportation purposes. So it’s like this little loophole that they found, that the airlines, I’m sure, are happy to have them exploit for profit. But the central point, though, is that the airlines have to know that this is happening, because there’s a whole protocol in place. These deportees, they board first, they deplane last, they can be in handcuffs and shackles, and they have an armed ICE agent escorting them. So clearly, this is orchestrated. Clearly there’s a protocol in place. The airlines know this is happening. Again, my central point is that commercial airlines are for consumers and cargo, not for Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Sam Goldman 21:59

And the position that they’re putting the pilot and the flight attendants in is one of deportation — that you are now being asked to play a facilitation role in the forced removal of human beings. I don’t know if you want to talk more about that, whether your personal experience or for those that you represent?

Alex Roberts 22:21

You’re exactly right. It puts us in sort of a perverse facilitator position, and none of us signed up to work at ICE. None of us signed up to conduct deportations. In fact, we all — and I have confidence in saying this — signed up to join the airlines for the exact opposite reasons, because we embrace different cultures, because we like people, because we want to make the world a smaller, more connected, more welcoming place — not to oversee vehicles of separation.

So it, to me, is offensive that they put their own employees in this morally compromising position of facilitating deportations. And more than that, I wanna make the point that every paying customer on board this flight, any of these deportation flights, they are maybe perhaps unwitting, but still participants in this deportation process. Everyone on board is in some way connected to these deportations. Again, that’s wrong, for these companies to put the flying public and their crew members in this morally compromising position.

Sam Goldman 23:24

People, I think, are more familiar with, like the Avelo Airlines, and people have been organizing and pressuring. They’ve been emblematic of this, because they signed this long term ICE charter contract, and they’ve been the site of national protests and boycotts. I think that people are not aware of, maybe the scale, or that it’s happening at all amongst major airline carriers.

Alex Roberts 23:51

Absolutely, and the airlines, they try to downplay it. The major U.S. air carriers try to downplay it. In fact, a lot of fellow crew members are unaware of this practice until it happens; until they have to actually be in this position. Because, again, it doesn’t really make much sense that a commercial airline is deporting folks. It’s not something that you would immediately think of. So it’s not just the flying public, but it’s also crew members who, I’m trying to, you know, sort of build this awareness campaign.

Again, that Avelo Airline, they get a lot of spotlight, and rightfully so, they do have this long term ICE agreement, but my point is, what is happening now is the four major U.S. air carriers in the United States of America are conducting deportation flights. It’s about 45,000 commercial flights that operate every day just in the United States alone. Imagine if we could take 45,000 planes out of the grasp of the Trump regime daily — again, daily. This would certainly constrict the flow of mass deportation.

The Trump campaign ran on deporting violent offenders, but the Cato Institute, which is no progressive organization — it’s a it’s a libertarian sort of think tank, but — they even came out and said that, through their studies, they found that 93% of those taken by ICE have no violent offenses. So what’s happening now is these poor folks who are just trying to make a living for their families, trying to flee persecution in whatever country that they’re coming from, they’re just trying to come here and make America better and with their own family. These are the folks that are being deported on commercial flights. With the Supreme Court decision recently, allowing the administration to deport folks to foreign countries that they have no connection to, that could be war torn countries, it’s callous, it’s cruel, it’s corrupt, it’s inhumane, and it’s got to stop. It certainly shouldn’t happen on commercial airlines.

Sam Goldman 25:49

Tell us a little bit more about the campaign that you’re working on, Alex. How are you and those that you represent, trying to build the mass defiance and non compliance to stop this flow?

Alex Roberts 26:10

It’s sort of a multi pronged approach, but we’re trying to leverage media as much as we can, because, again, this is really an awareness building campaign. So I’ve written op-eds, I’ve been on national news networks. I’m so grateful for this platform to speak about this. We did create a petition, a very grassroots petition on Change.org, which I would encourage folks to sign and spread around. Again, it’s mainly another strategy for building awareness, but if it did reach a critical mass, it could become evidence that the consumer base is not pleased with this.

I’m in the process of formulating an official grassroots advocacy campaign called de-ICE The Airlines. This will be an advocacy group that is ran by crew members, by airline personnel who are trying to get these commercial carriers to get out of the deportation business. That is what it is, because they’re profiting off of these deportations on commercial flights. Again, I’m really just trying to build awareness, trying to inform not just our fellow crew members, which, again, that’s also a part of this, but the flying public — to have them vote with their wallets, if you will. This has happened before. In 2018 with success, we got the commercial airlines to pledge to not allow their fleet of planes to be used for separating families. Basically, we’re trying to do the same thing now, but we cannot do it without the support of the flying public, of the consumer base, since these airlines, all they know really are greed, unfortunately.

Sam Goldman 27:48

In your work with fellow flight attendants, whether they’ve experienced this, being asked to facilitate this, or have never heard of this and do not know that It’s going on, what has the response been? What role do they see themselves playing? Are you aware of any instances where flight attendants have refused to go along with this? Just tell us a little bit about how your coworkers and colleagues are reacting to this.

Alex Roberts 28:17

To a person that I spoke with — I’ve not really kept track, but it’s hundreds now of flight attendants that I’ve spoken with, either on the jump seat on actual flights or in the terminals, or via social media and other communication methods trying to spread the word on this — they’re appalled, they’re offended, they did not sign up for this. These are all the feedback that I’ve received. This is especially egregious with a work group like at the airlines, because we are a very diverse international work group. That’s one of the reasons why I love it, because it is that diverse group of people.

The airlines hire different speakers for international routes. We’re required to have a certain amount of speakers on each international flight, in case something goes wrong, medical emergencies, you know, what have you, you have someone who can speak the native language. These folks, many of them that I’ve even spoken with, they themselves are green card holders or certain visa, the airlines accept certain visa holders. So these are folks who can literally put themselves in that in that seat. They see in the eyes of these folks being removed, they see their own families, they see their own circumstances.

So it’s especially kind of cruel and unusual for our work group in particular to be in this facilitating role. And yes, I’m actually working with our union now to get a clear distinction if a crew member is uncomfortable and wants to basically say: I’m not going to work this flight, I’m not going to facilitate this deportation — we need to have protections in place for those crew members. Because unfortunately, with this “Big, Beautiful Bill” that passed, billions of additional dollars now — I believe actually $45 billion — are going specifically to just deportations, not even the full immigration system, but specifically to deportations.
We will see many, many, many more of these deportation flights at commercial airlines. So our airline, in association with the AFA, another flight attendant union, did put out a joint statement saying that crew members do not have to work these flights. But now what we need to do is sit down with the company and actually get these firm commitments from them that there will be protections for our crew members. Again, like in 2018 what this advocacy campaign is seeking is commercial airlines to come out and say, We will not profit off of deportations any longer.

But if I can also say Sam, one additional thing. A part of this campaign is not just the awareness building, but it’s also information gathering, because with this administration in particular, there’s no transparency. So it is difficult to get these sort of raw numbers out. So I have filed a few FOIA requests, Freedom of Information Act requests, with ICE, trying to get this information from them, which legally they should comply with. But as we’ve seen with this administration, there’s no respect for the rule of law, so I’m not too hopeful that I’ll hear back anytime soon, but that is part of this as well, just to kind of get some of this information gathered so we can make an even more compelling case to the public and to the airlines.

Sam Goldman 31:31

Absolutely. I’m sure hearing from flight attendants as you’re spreading this hearing: Oh, we’ve experienced this; This is what was brought onto our flight — or all of that, I’m sure is part of the process. Your position is straddling both union power and public pressure elements, and I would like to hear a little bit more about what unique power you feel that flight attendants and others, pilots — I know you don’t represent them — but what does it mean for unions to establish statements like the ones that you’re working on, to refuse complicity in this state violence? What difference you think that would make?

Alex Roberts 32:10

I think it would make a huge difference. I’m so proud to be a dues paying member of a great labor union. I have been a dues paying member of a union since I was 21 years old, and I’m very proud of that. If you look throughout history, organized labor and union groups, it’s a critical component in fighting any sort of authoritarian regime. Again, looking back throughout history, the U.S. labor unions, they have a special responsibility in this moment in American history to really stand up and fight the good fight.

We’re here to defend workers of all stripes. That’s what I’m advocating for. I have support with our membership, which I’m grateful for. The main part is just getting the information out there. Once people hear some of these stories that we’re gathering some of these testimonials, including my own — once they kind of see the scope of this issue, and they really wrap their mind around that you have 45,000 flights a day commercial carriers that could be taken out of mass deportation processes, that’s compelling.

Again, it’s really just getting the information out there, having the conversations. Also when I’ve spoken with folks at protest movements and in other capacities about this issue, there sort of is a skepticism that I see in their eyes, like: Oh yeah, you’re going to get the airlines to do anything that makes sense. But that’s why I want to get across that there is precedent here. We have gotten the commercial airlines to disallow usage of their fleets. And what I want to get across too is that by the airlines allowing usage of their fleet, they are now accomplices in this increasingly lawless mass deportation effort by the Trump regime. I really want to get that crystallized in the flying public’s mind, because again, these airlines, they operate out of greed, like all major businesses, unfortunately, and if their consumer base says: We have a problem with this, like they did in 2018 during the family separation policy — that is when change will happen.

Sam Goldman 34:14

So for people listening right now, what can they do to support your effort, Alex? And not just your effort, but what role can they play in gumming up the works?

Alex Roberts 34:25

First and foremost, I would say, if you’re listening to this podcast and this is new information to you, please share it with your friends and family, anybody who travels or even the general public, because again, in a way, this affects everyone in our country. Please spread the word that this is happening every single day on commercial airlines. Sign the petition. Again, it’s another awareness building tool, but if it reaches a certain critical mass, then it could be compelling, just as some data to point to. And, let the airlines know directly that this is a policy that you’re not comfortable with.

We all know buying a plane ticket is not cheap, so this is a lot of money that goes into your travel experience. Let them know that this is a cruel, callous policy that they have followed, and that you are demanding that they no longer benefit financially from deportations. Again, I’m sort of teasing a little bit because it hasn’t launched yet, but we’re going to launch this more formalized group, because I think this issue is so important that it deserves its own specific entity that is dedicated to making this change. De-ICE The Airlines will launch soon, and I would ask that folks follow along. And two, I want to solicit feedback from the public, or maybe ideas from the public. Again, you’re the consumer base, so if we’re gonna make this change, it’s gonna have to be both internal pressure, but also a lot of external pressure on these airline companies. All of those components would be really critical in this campaign.

Sam Goldman 35:54

Was there anything that I didn’t ask you that you wanted to tell listeners about?

Alex Roberts 35:59

Going back to the experience unfortunately that I had with this deportation flight, these folks, seven women and children, were going back to god only knows what sort of circumstance. The corrupt Trump administration has ended the asylum program. They’ve ended the refugee resettlement program. So we literally don’t know the type of persecution that we’re sending these people back to. We do know, through Human Rights Watch and other advocacy groups that there have been extra judicial killings outside of airports whenever these people get back to their place of origin.

So we’re literally sending, in many instances, sending these people back to their deaths. That’s not an exaggeration. So I really want people to understand that. These folks that I interacted with on on the plane, you could again see the fear in their eyes. It was etched on their face. Seven women and children. I made a point, once we finally realized who these folks were, I made a point to try to connect with one of the women in particular in the group using a translator app, and she seemed so grateful for just a human interaction. That was striking to me alone, how grateful she seemed just to interact with someone in a kind conversation.

Then as they were deplaning, she attempted to hand me a friendship bracelet made of sort of faded, multi colored threads. When she extended her hand with this just kind gesture, kind gift, the ICE agent armed — again, these are armed ICE agents — yelled at her to put her arm back. It sort of personified the cruelty of this whole process, and to see the light in this lady’s eyes sort of dim in that moment, was something that I don’t want any of my fellow crew members to experience, and I don’t want any member of the flying public to experience, because I want it to stop, and I want this indiscriminate mass deportation to stop. Again, if we can remove 45,000 daily commercial flights out of circulation for ICE to utilize, for the Trump regime to utilize, that will make a difference.

Alex Roberts 38:05

I would appreciate if you visit the petition link. That has more information. It has links to my op ed, links to an MSNBC interview that I was on. So there’s more information there. I’m on blue sky. I would love to interact with folks. If you have feedback, ideas, any advocacy groups that you think would be interested in hearing this message, please reach out. De-ICE The Airlines, we will have a social media presence, and we’ll have a website as well. So I would encourage folks to look out for that.

Sam Goldman 38:05

Thank you so much, and thank you for using your position, your voice, to stop this. I wanted to ask: Where should people go if they want to learn more, connect with you, all of that? Do you want to share your Bluesky or something else? We’ll put in the show notes the petition, of course.

Sam Goldman 38:53

Thanks so much, Alex

Alex Roberts 38:54

Thank you, Sam.

Sam Goldman 38:56

Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. Please share this episode, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, drop a comment on our socials or YouTube. Every share helps build this fight. Follow us @RefuseFascism, including, yes on Bluesky and on Tiktok @RefuseFashizm, where ‘fascism’ is spelled F-A-S-H-I-Z-M. Thanks to Richie Marini, Lina Thorne and Mark Tinkleman for producing this episode. Until next time: In the Name of Humanity, We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America.

IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY, WE REFUSE TO ACCEPT A FASCIST AMERICA!

NOW IS the TIME WHEN WE MUST RISE UP and ACT to STOP the CONSOLIDATION of TRUMP MAGA FASCISM. For the lives of people here and around the world we must refuse unlawful and inhumane orders… we must fill the streets and town squares in non-violent protest—not stopping until we become millions — not relenting until this regime is no longer able to implement its program or maintain its hold on power.

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