Episode 267
October 18, the No Kings protests around the country mobilized 7 million people into the streets “denouncing Trump” as the New York Times put it. Now it’s time to bring that strength to the seat of power in DC.
Today we’re sharing speeches from the Trump Must Go Now forum last week in NYC featuring Dr. Cornel West, Sunsara Taylor, Dread Scott and our very own Sam Goldman.
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Music for this episode: Penny the Snitch by Ikebe Shakedown
Episode 267 What’s Next After No Kings_
Sun, Oct 19, 2025 6:05PM • 53:53
Sam Goldman 00:23
Welcome to episode 267 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. This is Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse fascism works to unite all who can be united to drive out the Trump fascist regime through mass, relentless, nonviolent resistance. Today, we’re sharing highlights from All Out for No Kings, and on to November 5th, a Trump Must Go Now! organizing forum that was held in New York City this past Wednesday, October 15, featuring Cornel West and Sunsara Taylor.
If you’re listening and find this show meaningful, take a moment after listening to today’s episode to rate and review the Refuse Fascism podcast on Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your pods. I wanna share one such review that we got over on Apple podcasts from Awake at night, Always, who gave us five stars, titled the review Quintessential Listening in the Age of Fascism, and wrote: “Part of an extremely small handful of podcasts that are telling it like it is, in terms of rapid fascist consolidation at every single level, from social and political aspects to the definitive kleptocratic elements, which are almost always part of every fascist regime.
Refuse Fascism points out the hypocrisy, appeasement, surrender and capitulation of both the Democratic Party and the corporate media. In addition, it’s important to be part of this group because of their rising awareness and their willingness to work across the political spectrum to bring down MAGA fascism with peaceful civil disobedience, peaceful protests and peaceful demonstrations. These folks are the leaders we need.” Thanks, Awake at night, Always, for this review, and I’m sorry that listening to this podcast will not help you with your sleep. If you value the show like Awake at night Always, I hope that you’ll rate and review after listening. It really helps more people discover the conversation and join the movement to drive out Trump and the whole fascist regime. Appreciation to all our patrons who make this show possible. If you aren’t one yet and you want to keep the show going and growing, join today at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism.
We want to celebrate the estimated 7 million people that came into the streets yesterday to say: No Kings. It showed our power. It showed our strength in numbers and determination. It showed our courage, that there are people that are not going to be intimidated by threats by the Trump fascist regime, by the MAGA movement. Now we need to build on that to flood D.C., starting on Wednesday, November, 5 at 11:00 a.m. at the Washington Monument, coming back again and again and not stopping until this fascist is removed from power. Now, you’ll hear from Sunsara Taylor, Cornel West, Dread Scott and myself in a program at Advent Lutheran Church on Wednesday, October 15.
Sunsara Taylor 03:23
Okay, beautiful people, sisters and brothers, I’m so happy to see you. I’m really happy! People we met on the street on the way down, welcome. We are in really intense times, really dangerous times. So I wanna start — just a little more than two weeks ago, September 30. It was a Tuesday — I wanna start at one in the morning, to be specific. All the children were asleep in their beds, all the adults, too, or most of them, and then suddenly there was a noise, not really a noise, it was a roar. All of a sudden, the building itself was shaking, all the buildings. The air was thumping. Children were jolted awake. They were screaming. People looked outside and there were Black Hawk military helicopters pounding the air, thump, thump, thump.
Everything was moving, not just the building targeted, but the neighboring buildings. People were screaming, disoriented, dead of night, and men in military gear are rappelling off the Black Hawk helicopters. From the ground, tanks are pouring out other men, masked in military gear, climbing over fences, busting down doors and one floor after the next, in this residential building. Flash, bang grenades, boom, boom, boom, boom, one after the other, every floor. Then everybody in these buildings were dragged out, zip tied.
Now, if this happened anywhere in the world against civilians, it would be an atrocity, it would be unacceptable. But this was not a scene from Iraq or Afghanistan, as unacceptable as that would be. This was a residential neighborhood, next to two schools, in the middle of Chicago, South Shore. This happened on U.S. soil, just two weeks ago. Then all the adults were dragged out. They were cuffed. They were zip tied. They were separated by race. Latinos zip tied together over here, Black people zip tied over there, children — children zip tied — half of them half dressed and naked, screaming.
One of the Black neighbors from across the street came out. He said this scene reminded him of slave coffles. You know, the trains of black people chained together, literally to be dragged in forced march from one plantation to another. This is what it means, “Make America Great Again,” with all the white supremacy, all the hatred of immigrants, all the horror and depravity that is invoked by that, “Make America Great Again.” This is happening. Another Black resident came out and she saw these children wailing, and she looked at the ICE agents, and she asked them, she said, “Where is your humanity?” And you know what one of them shot back to her? I’m in a church, so I won’t say it fully. He said: “F them kids.” That’s what he said: “F them kids.”
Think about that. This is the political descendant, the voice of the political descendants of the people in this country who would gather, bring their children and their packed lunches for celebration-like atmosphere to watch lynchings. This is the dead hand of the Confederacy and slavery coming back, “Make America Great Again.” This is fascism. As we say in our call for the Fall of the Trump Fascist Regime, right here — Andy quoted this before me, I’m going to say it again — fascism is not a looming threat, it is upon us now. This is fascism. This is just one of the examples already a month ago, if I had told you, or somebody had told you, there was going to be a military style raid in a residential neighborhood, it would have been unthinkable. And here we are, two weeks later, and the regime has moved on to its next outrages.
Just yesterday, they had skirmishes and clashes in Chicago, where federal troops, federal agents, pepper sprayed and tear gassed, not just protesters, but Chicago police. Today, the Supreme Court is actively contemplating further gutting the Voting Rights Act. Each day, it’s dizzying, the pace. So tonight, I’m gonna ask you the same question that that Black woman asked the ICE agents in the South Shore of Chicago. I’m gonna ask you: Where is your humanity? This is a question all of us are going to have to answer — not just once, but again and again, as we are living in truly unprecedented times. We’re gonna have to answer this question, what is the measure of our humanity, not just by how we treat those who are dearest to us. It’s quite possible that ice agent is a doting father to his own children. The measure of our humanity is not just how we treat those dearest to us, but by what we do, how we fight for those we’ve never met, and for the future itself. [applause]
So again, from this Call for the Fall of the Trump Fascist Regime: “Humanity’s only hope is for the decent people of this country to rise in our millions. We cannot wait for future and failed and rigged elections. We must drive the Trump fascist regime from power. Beginning November 5th, the one year anniversary of Trump’s election, flood D.C. in nonviolent protest. Surround the White House. Surround the Capitol. Surround the illegitimate, fascist-packed, Supreme Court. Come back again and again across the country, refuse to comply. Every person of conscience, millions of us together. Grind the machinery of this fascist regime to a halt and do not stop until Trump is removed from power. Do not stop until Trump is removed.”
Why is that so essential? Why do we say that? It is because ‘fascism’ is not a curse word. It has real meaning. Fascism is a qualitative change in the form of rule. Fascism means no due process, no rights or protections. Fascism means dehumanizing and demonizing and disappearing one group after another. In this country, with its historical development, fascism means aggressive, open white supremacy. It means genocidal hatred of immigrants and all things foreign. It means revenge against women for ever having gotten out of their place. It means erasure of trans people and LGBT rights. It means backing war crimes and crimes against humanity like in Gaza, and it means the full scale trampling of science and reason and the planet itself. Fascism is a machine of destruction. If it is not defeated, it devours everything.
The most essential thing to understand about fascism is there is no living with it. There is no waiting it out. There is no hoping it goes away. There is no ten tips for surviving it. The lesson of fascism is that if it is not defeated, if it is not driven from power, it will carry out greater and greater atrocities, and it will shut down any space for anybody to meaningfully oppose it, from the streets rising up or even from within the halls of power, and this is what we see happening every day. Consider this: When Charlie Kirk was assassinated, we immediately came out and made clear this was a horribly wrong thing, and no one should celebrate or cheer it.
But what did Trump and the MAGA regime do? They immediately came out and seized on this horrific assassination to double down and triple down on ruthlessly going after anybody they perceived as enemies. Some within MAGA openly called Charlie Kirk’s assassination their Reichstag Fire. Now for those of you who don’t know, in 1933, shortly after Hitler came to power, the main government building in Germany, the Reichstag, was set on fire — this is what they’re talking about, the Reichstag fire. Now, historians have debated who actually set the fire — many believe the Nazis did it themselves — but what is undisputed, what is clear fact, and what is the most salient and important lesson to draw from this is the Nazis seized on this fire to declare emergency powers. They criminalized and banned all opposition parties. They shut down the free press. They went after and hunted down and tortured and rounded up communists. This was the beginning of the concentration camps.
This was a major leap down the trajectory that led to the towering crime in all of human history of the Holocaust of 6 million Jews and the mass murder of Roma people, disabled people, gay people and others. The revolutionary leader Bob Avakian, the architect of the New Communism, put out a message shortly after this, and I want to quote from it. He said: “In declaring that this was their Reichstag fire, these Trump MAGA forces are openly identifying with the Nazis, openly proclaiming that they are indeed fascists.” This is exactly what we see playing out. They are seizing on this like their Reichstag Fire. Just in recent days, Donald Trump designated Antifa, an intentionally vague catch all category, as a domestic terrorist organization.
Now, Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, and that fascist from Minnesota Tom Emmer, have come out and said, all of the millions of protesters who’ll be out in the streets for No Kings Day are terrorists — they’re Antifa. And yesterday, Pam Bondi goes on Fox News, and you know what she said? She said: We are going to treat Antifa the same way Trump is treating those he proclaimed were narco terrorists, dropping bombs on them without evidence, without trial, without due process. This is what she said. When these fascists speak, we need to believe them. What else happened since this Reichstag Fire? Trump and Hegseth gathered all the military brass from all over the world and lectured them and told them that they are going to be unleashed against the enemy within.
Now the regime has illegitimately gone after and indicted James Comey, Letitia, James. They had a hand picked prosecutor Donald Trump put in place, spent months investigating them, came back and said there’s no legitimate basis to indict either of these people. He fired that one, put in another one. Now they’re indicted. Meanwhile, he’s threatened Governor Pritzker of Illinois, the Mayor, Brandon Johnson, of Chicago with the rest. They are not stopping. And then there’s ICE, lawless, unidentifiable, unaccountable, loyal only to Trump, with a budget bigger than most of the world’s militaries. “F those kids.”
Think about that. This is fascism, and it does not get better with time. It only gets worse, unless and until this regime is driven from power. Here again, from the Call that we put out, which I’ve lost track of, somewhere up here, it’s here it is again, from this Call: “The elections are way too late! Besides, no honest person can expect the tyrant who instigated and then pardoned the January 6 insurrectionists, to respect an election he loses. This is why we need to go all out for no kings day and be in the streets this Saturday.”
And we need to double down on being out there and getting everybody we know out there, especially now that it’s been threatened. We cannot concede to these fascist threats and intimidation. By coming out, we show the world that the majority in this country hates what Trump is doing. He does not have our consent. By coming out, we remind ourselves and each other of our strength, and we give courage to those who are afraid. This matters, but it is also not enough. You’re here because you know this.
This is why we also need to get down to D.C. on November 5th to raise the demand: “The Trump Fascist Regime Must Go Now! “and to kick off a nonviolent struggle of millions and tens of millions that rises again and again and does not stop until we create the level of profound political crisis across this country so that Trump cannot govern this country, cannot impose his fascist program, and cannot even hold on to the reins of power this and nothing less, is what we must do. [applause]
November 5th is three weeks from today. It’s a Wednesday. It’s a weekday. It’s intended to be disruptive. It is also the one year anniversary of Trump’s election. We need to be there to say: No election fair or fraudulent, justifies or legitimates a fascist America. Trump Must Go! [applause]
But tonight, I’m not just calling on you to make a commitment to come to D.C., though I am. I’m calling on you to buy your bus ticket tonight, to make your plans tonight. But I’m calling on you to do more than that. I’m calling on you to dedicate the next three weeks of your life to organizing for November 5, to spreading the word about it, to recruiting friends and neighbors to be part of it — by joining us this Saturday at 10:00 a.m. at the military recruiting center at Times Square on 43rd and Seventh Avenue, to do a contingent going into No Kings Day to spread the word about this to the millions who will be out in the streets, to recruit them to join us.
So I want to speak to the question, which I get asked, and you’ll get asked, if you go out and spread this movement: Is it really possible to drive out this regime? Absolutely it is possible. Andy told you before, my name is Sunsara Taylor, and I’m a co initiator of Refuse Fascism, together with Andy, with my dear brother, Cornel West, who you’ll hear from soon, and with others. We initiated this organization back in 2016. We recognize the danger of Trump. This is a movement that unites people from many diverse political and philosophical perspectives, different walks of life, different outlooks.
But I want to say I come to this movement personally as a proud follower of the revolutionary leader Bob Avakian, who, as I mentioned, is the architect of the New Communism, a whole new framework of human emancipation. I urge you to learn about it. But tonight, what I want to highlight is this revolutionary leader, as Cornell was emphasizing to me before this program, has been ahead of the curve for 30 years in recognizing and warning of the rise of fascism in this country, and of giving direction for how it could be defeated. It’s important. If people had listened to him instead of dismissing him as alarmist or dismissing him because of outright anti-communist prejudices, we would likely not be in such a dangerous situation tonight.
My point in saying this is not to dwell in the past, but to learn from it. So I want to highlight tonight that Bob Avakian recently put out a major message called “The time is urgently upon us now to Drive Out the Trump Fascist Regime.” In it, he speaks to why and how it actually is possible to drive this regime out. You can find this message, and I urge you to, at Bob Avakian Official on Substack. I’m going to draw from some of his insights in the points I’m about to make. t’s possible to drive this regime from power, not only because tens of millions of us reject and hate everything Trump is doing. That matters. Without that, we would have no chance.
I will tell you, and history shows that just because you have the majority on your side does not mean you always win. The reason it’s possible to drive this regime out is both because of the millions who hate this, if we act, but also because this society is deeply, deeply divided. It is split right down the middle. This is true not just in the population broadly. It is true among every single institution in this society; every civil institution, every university board, every law firm, every community organization and every part of the ruling institutions as well, right up to the leading levels of society and the armed forces of repression and enforcement.
There are people — yes, they have a different perspective on this system than I do as a revolutionary — but there are people from a very different perspective than me who are horrified right within the halls of power, at the lawlessness of Trump, at the way he is shredding the Constitution, at the way he is disrupting and disfiguring what they see as their great American experiment in democracy. These people have done a lot of things to try to slow Trump down, and they’re deeply opposed to him.
But right now, they’re on the defensive. Right now, their efforts are overwhelmed. And right now, even when they have some momentary success, they are overwhelmed as Trump barrels ahead. But they could play a major role in bringing about the removal of Trump, but they will not do this unless and until there is the kind of political earthquake from below that we are calling for and initiating with this November 5th movement to drive Trump from power. If there was this millions in the streets, not just once, but again and again, concentrated in D.C., coming back at the seat of power, this could compel shifts and major realignments within the ruling institutions. It could compel and enable those in a position to do so, to play a crucial role in bringing about Trump’s removal from power.
It is actually possible, but the time is upon us now, so some people say, and I’ve heard this as I’ve traveled around the country: What good would it be to get rid of Trump if you still have Vance, Miller and the rest of them in power? To this, I say, this is a failure of scientific imagination. Just picture what it would be if you had tens of millions rising up, repudiating, refusing to comply, causing such a political crisis in this country that we bring about the removal of Trump. A political upsurge in crisis like that could lead to the fall of many more than just Trump. One thing that is sure is whoever comes in behind Trump would face an aroused and awakened and politicized population. So we A) would not be living under fascism, and B) would be in a much better position to fight forward. [applause]
Some people say November 5th is too soon. They say, push it back to January or February. We are hearing this. No, no. Not only because we don’t have time for that; Trump is moving to lock in fascism now. He has to be stopped now. But this is also wrong, because right now is when millions are being jolted and shocked and disturbed from their slumber. Right now is when people need to be moved. If we don’t move them now, it’s not gonna be easier to move them later. If we wait, even more of these crimes will be normalized, and the stakes and the terror of rising up will be greater.
Now is the time! [applause] Some people have told us: You can’t do this without indivisible and other major national organizations. To this, I say: We’ve invited them, and we are still extending the invitation. Some of their members are here with us tonight and working with us around the country, and this is important. It would be better if they joined us officially, but we cannot let what others are not ready to do stop us from doing what really must be done. [applause]
So I ask you to join, again, in the next three weeks, to double down in helping reach the people that we could reach better if other organizations were with us. Be part of the engine to get the broad masses of people, and work with us to go to the leaders of these other groups and to their members and win them to take this up. Because the truth is, the future they want, the future I want, the future you want, even if there’s differences — any of these futures are not possible if Trump remains in power. [applause]
Then there are those who say, but November 4th is election day, and this is very high stakes. Well, I’m not here to tell you what to do on November 4th, but I am here to say: 1) that everybody should stand against the fascist threats against Mamdani by Donald Trump to deport him, the fascist threats against New York City if he wins, and 2) I’m here to tell you that no matter who is in power, no matter how much they stand up to Trump, there is no such thing as Trump-proofing a city or a state. We are seeing this proven in Chicago and California right now. So do what you feel moved to do on November 4th, and then get on the bus November 5 and come to D.C. to help drive this regime from power. [applause]
This is the most decisive thing. This is what history will pivot on. So I want to conclude by saying that most people, most generations, do not live through times as consequential as these. Most don’t. But we look back on the generations that lived through historic turning points. While making clear that what we are calling for right now is nonviolent, I also want to be clear that what we are facing is every bit as consequential as the generation that faced the Civil War and the epic battle to abolish slavery, and what we are facing right now is every bit as consequential as the generation that faced the rise of Hitler and Nazi Germany.
We look back at those generations, and we celebrate the heroism and the courage of one, and how they changed the world for the better, and we look with unforgivable shame upon the other, for their legacy and the cost, the human cost, that is still being felt. Future generations are gonna look back at us in a similar light. Each of us are going to have to answer: How do we measure up? To echo the woman’s question in the South Shore of Chicago: We are gonna have to answer: What is the measure of our humanity? We are gonna have to answer this not just with private convictions and what we said to our friends or on Facebook. We are gonna have to answer this with the courage that we show in public — with the demonstrable action we take together, and by our determination to act and move others to act in the only way that measures up to this turning point in history, which is by bringing forward millions to stand up and say: We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America! In the Name of Humanity, this Fascist Regime Must Go! Beginning November 5th. [applause]
Beginning November 5th in D.C. and going forward from there. So change your life. Throw all in. Take a leave. If you can come to D.C. early, if you can throw in here in New York City, in whatever way you can, this will be the most important thing, the most meaningful thing you can do with the next three weeks of your life. It may be the most meaningful thing you have the opportunity to do in your entire life. No matter what, it will be the highest expression of your humanity and the biggest gift that you can give to humanity, all over the world, and to the future itself. So thank you. [applase] Trump Must Go Now!
Cornel West 25:42
Brother Andy, I thank you for those kind words. And I must say, didn’t our magnificent sister Sunsara tell the truth with passion and insight? Thank you so very much.
I’m sitting next to my dear brother, Carl Dix. Stand up. Stand up, Brother Carl, just stand up! He’s a humble brother. He’s a humble brother. Yes, Lord, Lord, Lord, where’s my dear sister Lovette? Where’s sister Lovette? Stand up, sister Lovette, stand up. Make us see how beautiful with all your grace and dignity, give it up for our dear sister. Brother Andy and sister Sunsara and brother Carl and my dear sister Lovette, we’ve been at this now for many, many years. They come from a very rich tradition, revolutionary communism.
This is the 59th anniversary of the founding of the Black Panther Party on the chocolate side of Oakland, California. That’s revolutionary communism too. I’m not an ‘-ism’ kind of brother. I’m a revolutionary Christian. I’m concerned about how deep is your love for the people? Are you willing to tell the truth about suffering? Because the condition of suffering is to allow poor and working people’s suffering to be made visible so that we can straighten up our backs and change the world. If you’re a revolutionary Jew, if you’re a revolutionary Buddhist, if you’re a revolutionary Lutheran, if you’re a revolutionary Baptist, if you are revolutionary Hindu and anti-caste, if you are revolutionary atheist and an agnostic, then this movement is for you. [cheers]
Yes, because we’re talking about solidarity, and it cuts across the board. It has everything to do with integrity, honesty and decency and a willingness to serve and a willingness to have an analysis of the structures and forces in place that allow us to understand what is coming at us. That’s one of the reasons why I like to read brother Avakian, yes indeed. Because for over 40 years — and of course, he was there with the Black Panther Party founding. He’s an Armenian brother, so it’s not as if you gonna think that when he sings, he sounds like Curtis Mayfield, but he got so much love in him. He’s got intellect in him.
And whatever agreements or disagreements I might have or you might have, you can never deny the love that He has for oppressed people in every corner of the globe. Trying to tell the truth for 45, 50, 60 years, is no easy thing, especially when you are hounded by the mechanisms of repression, of COINTELPRO, of FBI and CIA, and he’s still standing tall. Give it up for Brother Bob Avakian!
I come from a tradition of Black people, and I’m very explicit about that, because you’re talking about my mama and my daddy. You’re talking about Shiloh Baptist Church. You’re talking about Fannie Lou Hamer and Harriet Tubman and Martin King and Frederick Douglass and Gil Scott Heron. I haven’t even got to Nina Simone yet. These are not just names. These are human beings who decided to live lives of integrity and honesty and decency and tell the truth from the vantage point of oppressed peoples, whether they be wrestling with genocide in Gaza, whether they be wrestling with ICE hunting them down and snatching their precious members of their family, whether they’re wrestling with unbelievable, predatory capitalist forces in Brazil, it’s a global affair, but it’s local in how we act and how we come together.
Solidarity must be our theme. Solidarity must be our slogan. We need coalition now more than ever, but it’s got to be rooted in the best of you and the best of the traditions that have shaped you. That’s our challenge. Because let us be very, very clear that one of the major obstacles of our day is not just the predatory greed of big money of Wall Street and Silicon Valley, it’s not just the weaponized hatred, the old and new forms of white supremacy coming at Black people and indigenous people and brown new immigrants. It’s not that old style and new style patriarchy that loses sight of the vast majority of human beings who are women, or loses sight of precious gays and trans and lesbian sisters.
No, that’s in place, but our problem is that we got too many folk in the middle who are lukewarm. Oh yes, we’ve got too many bystanders and spectators who don’t want to become participants, who don’t want to take a risk and end up thinking they could make it through by being well adjusted to injustice and well adapted to indifference. I can hear Rabbi Herschel saying: Indifference, the evil is more insidious than evil itself. It’s the indifference, it’s the callousness, it’s remaining spectator and bystander and thinking all you do is just watch it on television, rather than show up November the 5th, and be there and put your body where your virtues are, put your body where your values are, put your body where your convictions are, put your body where your commitments are.
Oh, that’s what we need more than anything else. I saw my dear sister, Pastor Danielle, where is she? She’s so humble. Raise your hand, my dear sister. Raise your hand. Give it up for my dear sister. There she is, stepping in the name of love. This grand institution, this consecrated space of Advent Lutheran Church is part of the tradition of the inimitable Dietrich Bonhoeffer. You all know Dietrich Bonhoeffer led the resistance against a gangster named Hitler. But he was also a student of my own institution of Union Theological Seminary in 1930 and 1931. When he arrived in New York City and he could already feel fascism escalating, he could see fascism beginning to expand. He came to America right after the Wall Street crash, right at the beginning of Depression.
He could see the Jim Crow and the Jane Crow. He could see the patriarchy. He could see the class struggle taking place. What did he do? He looked around and he said, I think I feel more at home in Abyssinian Baptist church with a pastor named Adam Clayton Powell senior, who was the father of Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Dietrich Bonhoeffer became the only vanilla member of that chocolate church — solidarity! He was not some kind of white ally, just trying to act as if he could spend a little time here or there. No, no. He was like Bill Evans in Miles Davis’ quintet, who was a vanilla brother. When Miles said: ‘Trane [John Coltrane], play your solo. ‘Trane would play a beautiful solo. Then he say: Evans, play your solo. He didn’t say: White ally, play your solo. No, he’s in the mother huckin band.
He’s in solidarity. He’s in a context of struggle together. Because, as a human being, he’s been respected. He’s earned his role. He’s earned his function. That’s what we need. We’ve got to be in the same band. We’ve got to be in the same context of struggle. That’s what Dietrich Bonhoeffer was able to do. So when he stepped to the pulpit of 137th Street and looked at all of those beautiful Black people, and they looked at this white brother from Germany, and they said: We’re in the same band because we’re struggling together and we in the same foxhole, which means that we sacrifice together, we risk together, we laugh together; We can disagree in various ways, but in the end, we will die together.
And when Bonhoeffer went back to Germany, what did he do? He created that underground seminary, and he made all of those students require listening to those spirituals that those geniuses on the barbaric white supremacist plantations created: ‘Swing Low, Sweet Chariot,’ ‘Steal away.’ Those were the songs that Bonhoeffer had his anti-fascist coalition in gangster Hitler’s Nazi Germany… solidarity — international solidarity. And what else would he say? My dear sister knows the story. Lutheran pastor. Sister Danielle, Lutheran pastor, brother, Dietrich, same tradition. But most of the churches had accommodated to Hitler, just like now.
You see most Christians these days, you better watch yourself! Accommodating themselves. Well adjusted to injustice. Oh, not Bonhoeffer, not pastor Danielle, not Advent Lutheran, not at all. But then, even with the Confessing Church, when things got tough, when Hitler forced him to decide, they signed the oath to Hitler anyway. Bonhoeffer said: Oh my god, I thought I had at least a Christian minority! It’s smaller than I thought. And he would begin every morning… he would say, if you cannot hear the cries of Jews in concentration camps, then don’t sing Gregorian chants in this church.
Yes, that’s the kind of truth telling we need, that’s the kind of justice seeking we need, that’s the kind of prophetic witness we need, not because we’re self righteous or orthodox or dogmatic in creed and ideology — that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about deed. I’m talking about actions. I’m talking about praxis. I’m talking about consistency and constancy in trying to be, in the language of John Coltrane, a force for good, which means we create an anti-fascist coalition that cuts across the grain. That’s what we’re talking about tonight.
And yes, Bonhoeffer was executed just a few weeks before the end of the war. He was willing to die — no doubt about that — and some of us will die. We’ve got gangsters in the White House. We’ve got thugs in the White House. They are not the cause. They are the symptom. There’s larger forces and factors at work, so it’s not all about just Trump. It’s about Trump himself being part of a fascism movement in this country that goes back 400 years. That’s what Malcolm meant when he said that chickens come home to roost.
No nation, no empire, can survive based on the efficacy of lies that hide your crimes. You begin with genocide, you begin with slavery, you begin with patriarchy, you begin with class subordination, and either you generate the best of humanity so that those in the country, in the empire, can create moments of interruption, so that the best of who we are, with all of our love and care and compassion and empathy, is manifest, or we lose it, and the worst of humanity comes through; all of that organized greed, all of that weaponized hatred, all of that routinized indifference, all of that cowardliness, all of that sense of thinking that somehow it’s not gonna make it to your house. Well, I come from a Black people, where Trump is not new — and he’s not news.
Fascism is not new and is not news. Vicious forms of white supremacy and male supremacy are not new. Harriet Tubman wouldn’t be surprised. Malcolm wouldn’t be surprised. Du Bois wouldn’t be surprised. Martin Luther King, Jr. said: America, I can see the curtain being brought down on your empire if you don’t come to terms with poverty and racism and militarism and materialism around the world, in the Middle East and Asia, in Latin America and in the United States. All of those bombs that you dropped over there will have effects here. Sooner or later, the very militarism that takes place there will become more visible and more discernible here. Well, you know what, here we are. And the question is always: What we gonna do? How do we create solidarity with each other?
How do we learn how to disagree when we disagree, but do it in such a way that is still enhancing and empowering in our agreement, because what we do agree on is we’re anti-fascist across the board. We’re anti-racist across the board. We’re anti-sexist across the board. Some of us are anti-capitalists. That’s all right, if we got some liberals and some Neo liberals and social democrats in the coalition, that’s fine. We’ll just have some fascinating arguments in jail together. But right now, we’ve gotta be anti-fascist. When you look at the ways in which institutions have caved in: Columbia University, shame on ya, shame! Wall Street Law Firm, shame on you! Capitulating.
We could go on and on and on and on. My God, we haven’t even got to professional managerial class in this nation; professors running around acting as if they had such deep commitments to truth and the sacredness of universities, and they see 13 universities demolished in Gaza and hardly say a mumbling word. All that talk about journalism, how sacred free press is, and 207 journalists in Gaza are murdered, and they hardly say a mumbling word. All these medical doctors running around talking about the Hippocratic oath and how sacred human bodies are. 95% of the hospitals demolished. Where is the word from the doctors?
That’s what anti-fascist struggle is about, not trashing people, but exposing their cowardliness and hypocrisy and trying to convince them to be more courageous and truth telling. That’s our challenge. Let us never, ever, ever get discouraged. Let us be encouraged. Because, as a Black man in America, I’m never surprised by any evil, just like I’m never paralyzed by any despair. I’m a blues man, and the blues is not pessimistic or optimistic. The blues is not about paralysis, and it’s certainly not about being overwhelmed by evil. No, the blues generates prisoners of hope who are truth tellers about ourselves, about our society and the world, but you always end up with a sound and a smile and style and organizing and some way of bringing people together.
That’s not just music, that’s a way of life, that’s a mode of being in the world, and It has everything to do with love — the love supreme of John Coltrane, the love train of the OJs, that love and need of love of Stevie Wonder. Those are just not songs. Oh, Jimi Hendrix, too, out of Seattle. We’ve got a long list, my brother. Shoot, I start talking about Gerald Levert, we’ll be here all night. But that’s not the point. We’re here to make sure we come together and sustain this anti-fascist coalition. Let us continue to struggle together and work together. God bless you. Stay strong. [cheers]
Dread Scott 43:16
Hello, I’m Dread Scott. I’m a revolutionary artist, a visual artist, and I am so, so glad that Refuse Fascism has called on people to come to D.C. on November 5th to drive out the Trump regime. Trump Must Go Now! This is exactly the spirit that people really need. Trump is a fascist, and there is no making peace with fascists. Fascism is not something in the future, it is here with us now. The only thing that’s really responsible for people to do is to stay in the streets and drive out this regime. I’m also really glad that you guys are gathering to make plans for that today, but unfortunately, I can’t be with you.
I’m meeting with several other artists that are planning Fall of Freedom, which is a national call to artists to use our art everywhere on November 21 and 22nd, whether it is visual artists or musicians or comedians or dancers. If you’re an artist, you should be part of Fall of Freedom. But really, what I want to say right now is I’m getting a shout out to all the efforts of Refuse Fascism for November 5th, coming to the Fall of the Trump Regime.
Sam Goldman 44:38
This is a fight that needs you. Brother Cornel West’s words were fire, and I understand that you want to leave and take that out to the world right away, but take a moment more with us. If you walk away with one thing tonight, it will be that the Trump fascist regime will not stop itself. The longer that they stay in power, the more horror is unleashed, the more dissent is ripped away, the more that we lose our humanity, and the more likely it becomes that they will hammer it into place for generations to come. This is true, unless you stop them. And here’s the truth: This won’t happen without you.
Yes, us together, but I need you. You in the back with the baseball cap, and you with the ladder on your neck, and you with the top with the beautiful black and white, all of you as individuals, yes, and all of us together. With you, this is possible. With the people in the room rising to the level that this moment demands, the level Sunsara walked us through earlier today. So much is possible. We actually can change the world. On November 5th, we are launching something unprecedented — a relentless nonviolent mobilization in Washington, D.C. to demand Trump Must Go Now! [crowd chanting: Trump Must Go Now!] And are we gonna stop? [No] Not until the regime is removed from power.
For that to be, for that to be realized, millions need to know that 11/5, November 5th, 11:00 a.m. Washington Monument, is when this kicks off. And right now, beautiful people, they don’t know about it. Many, many people who, if they knew, about November 5th, would be throwing in, would be turning their lives upside down, but they don’t know. That’s what has to change together tonight. For people to feel that it’s real, they need to know — there’s gonna be porta-potties there. They need to know that there’s gonna be sound that will be heard across the National Mall. They need to know that there are organizers working day and night to bring people out, and that there is a program, a fighting program, to win. We need to be spreading the word this Saturday.
Yes, we need to be out there in its own right, to be flooding the streets, but we need everybody who’s out on Saturday at No Kings… all these people that are thinking: What’s next? — for anyone who’s serious about defeating Trump/MAGA fascism, what’s next, everybody? [crows: November 5th] They need to know that. We need to be saturating the crowd with flyers that you can see in the back, with stickers that you can see in the back, with copies of the call, which you can see in the back, and posters you can see in the back, and bandanas that you can see over there. None of that happens without funding. We need to saturate New York City. You can’t walk down the street without seeing November 5th. You can’t open up your your Instagram feed without seeing November 5th. We all have a role to play in making that happen.
I came down after work to be here from Philly — so it was up, not down, sorry [some laughter] — but I rushed out of work asking for money. Because the truth is, there is nothing, more important than giving as much as we can to make this real. [applause] People have talked about courage and sacrifice, rightly so. People have also talked about joy and hope and humanity. It’s those combined that are realized with your gift tonight. That is our collective power together in this room. So look around and see that shared humanity that we started with. It is us together. It is the people who left us the need to contact. It is the people that we know in our lives who aren’t here in this room with us. We have to call everyone. This is the part where I’m going to ask you to take out your phone, or I’m gonna ask you to take out your wallet. This is the part where I’m going to ask that people be walking down with buckets and baskets. Yes, people left, so the number around is always changing, but just think about this: If 50 of us right now, were able to give $50, think of the impact that would bring right away.
Think about the buses that need to go from New York City to D.C. Think about what it’s worth to send college youth to be in D.C. Think about what it’s worth to send whole neighborhoods to D.C. For just a few thousand dollars, we could be sending a bus there. We could make that tonight.
So as you’re thinking about what you’re willing to give tonight, I want you to remember that it’s not just about the amount — the dollar amount that you give, whether $10 is a stretch for you so you give $15, or whether $1000 is a stretch for you, so you give $2000 — but about what kind of person you choose to be in this moment. What kind of person you choose to be can change everything. There is no power in coming to save us. There’s us. That’s exactly what history has always required — ordinary people, us, who decide to do something extraordinary.
I want you to feel the weight of that, but I also want you to feel the power of that. What is possible is whether we step up or if we don’t. That changes everything. So this is a time for sacrifice, for stretching beyond what’s comfortable, and for thinking about what’s at stake, which really is the future for all of us. In closing: The future is undetermined. Which one we get is up to us. Let’s write the one where we stood up together again and again and again — where we moved heaven and earth and didn’t stop until this regime was driven from from power. So give like the future depends on it, because it really does. [cheers and applause]
Get your bus tickets to D.C. Sign up to commit to be there in D.C. on November 5th, or coming early to volunteer. Be sure to let us know what skills you can contribute to this effort. Join a medic team, a logistics team, a marshal team, a tech team, AV and sound kind of things, and so much more. Sign up at RefuseFascism.org. You can get your tickets there to come via bus and get other information on how to get there and lodging and so much more. You can also see the show notes for a direct link. Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism.
Please share this episode, rate and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen, and drop a comment on our socials or YouTube. Every share helps fuel this fight. Become a patron to keep the podcast going and growing. Join today at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism, and follow us @RefuseFascism, including on Bluesky, and on Tiktok @RefuseFashizm, where ‘fascism’ spelled F-A-S-H-I-Z-M. Thanks, as always, to Mark Tinkleman, Richie Marini and Lina Thorne for producing the show. Until next time, In the Name of Humanity, We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America!