Episode 292
Sam speaks to members of the Tennessee state legislature about the state’s immediate redistricting designed to disempower Black communities in response to the SCOTUS overturning of the VRA, including Sen. Charlane Oliver (who stood on her desk in the chamber with a banner reading “No Jim Crow 2.0” during proceedings) and Rep. Gloria Johnson.
Related episode: Will The People Accept The Jim Crow 2.0?
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Music for this episode: Penny the Snitch by Ikebe Shakedown
Episode 292 White Power Grab with Tennessee Sen. Oliver & Rep. Johnson
Sun, May 17, 2026 5:06PM • 56:21
Senator Charlene Oliver 00:00
It was a slap in the face to all of the people who protested, marched, bled to have our right to vote. I needed to send the message and put it in their face, that what you’re doing is Jim Crow 2.0. What you’re doing is racist.
Representative Gloria Johnson 00:14
They are stealing. They are stealing Black votes and Black voter power. It’s racist. What I called it from the beginning, a white power rally. It was a white power grab, that’s what it was.
Sam Goldman 00:48
Welcome to episode 292 of the Refuse Fascism Podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism Podcast, a podcast brought to by Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show Refuse Fascism works to unite all who can be united in mass nonviolent resistance in the streets and throughout society to drive the Trump fascist regime from power. This week I am sharing two interviews with courageous Tennessee lawmakers, Tennessee State Senator Charlene Oliver and Tennessee State Representative Gloria Johnson. Both of these women took action to protest the Jim Crow 2.0 that’s taking place in their state. Before we get into this week’s episode, I want to extend a heartfelt thank you to everyone who supports the Refuse Fascism podcast, our patrons, our paid Substack subscribers, everyone who subscribes, shares an episode, leaves a rating or review. It really matters and helps spread this analysis. This show is part of building the understanding and collective resistance that people urgently need right now, and it truly would not exist without your support. So, if you value this podcast, after listening to today’s episode, subscribe, leave a rating or review, share this episode with friends, with your networks, and consider becoming a paid Substack subscriber, a monthly supporter through our Patreon, or by getting a Refuse Fascism hat, or T-shirt, or making a donation at RefuseFascism.org
At the end of April, the Supreme Court issued a decision in Louisiana v. Calais to gut the Voting Rights Act, enabling former Confederate states to redraw their voting districts to dissolve any and all concentration of black people’s political power. The Supreme Court fast tracked the implementation of the ruling to ensure that this would fully impact the 2026 midterms. Within days, many of those Confederate states who have already gerrymandered Republican supermajorities in their own state legislatures went full throttle, including calling special sessions in order to redraw their maps in line with this and to subsequent decisions. Paul Blumenthal, writing at Huff Post, detailed that as of May 16, “three such seats have either already been eliminated or are on fast track to be eliminated in Alabama, Louisiana, and Tennessee.” White Republican governments in Georgia, Mississippi, and South Carolina are also moving forward with special legislative sessions to redraw maps. In total, white Republican majorities could eliminate upwards of 19 Black majority seats across the South, according to a study by Fair Fight Action and Black Voters Matter.” In a separate ruling this past week, the Supreme Court enabled Alabama to dissolve one of its two majority Black voting districts ahead of the midterm. Alabama lawmakers have already passed a law to avoid the results of some May 19 congressional primaries, and the state is now moving forward with a special primary election for more than half of its congressional districts. In a third ruling, just this past Friday, may 15, the Supreme Court helped strike down Virginia’s attempt at redrawing their maps to reduce Republicans’ outsize power in their state, discarding the results of a statewide referendum. This is, as Tennessee State Representative Gloria Johnson described it in our interview, an open white power grab enabled from the nation’s highest court, pushed through by the bastions of neo-Confederate power in these southern state governments, all incited, directed, and coordinated by Trump and his regime. To really grasp the magnitude of this outrage, you have to step back and look honestly at the history of this country. This country was built on the kidnapped labor, torture, rape, family separation, and terror imposed on 12 generations of enslaved Black people, the. Wealth and power of this country were soaked in that blood from the beginning, and slavery was not ended because America suddenly discovered morality. It was ended because slavery became incompatible with the further expansion of the system. Even then it took a civil war. After slavery, lynch mobs, Jim Crow, chain gangs, terror, police murder, redlining, segregation, mass incarceration, generations locked out of housing, health care, education, and basic dignity. White supremacy enforced through both law and mob violence. Even the right to vote itself was not something Black people were simply granted by enlightened leaders. People fought for it. People endured beatings, prison bombings, attack dogs, assassinations, and death to wrench that right from a system that never wanted to give it up.
Now with white supremacist political descendants of the Confederacy occupying the highest levels of power, from the White House to the Supreme Court, that right is being ripped back as part of a fascist effort to lock in power and steal the future. On top of these redistricting efforts, on top of chasing out the members of election boards across the country and replacing them with MAGA diehards, on top of threatening ICE teams stationed at poll sites, on top of decades of voter suppression efforts, Trump announced a so-called election integrity army to be directed by the GOP, who claimed to already be staffing this effort on the ground in 17 states.
These midterms will be a very important test of the people living in this country, but not really in the sense that the results of the election will represent the will of the people, much more consequential than the results will be what we allow these fascists to get away with in their efforts to strip Black people of the alleged rights of citizenship — to plow through any and all institutional roadblocks on the road to even greater horrors, and to fortify their fascist rule.
Will people passively wait out the horrors the regime is inflicting right now, or will they rise up in their millions in sustained action, directing their righteous outrage at the Trump fascist regime at the center of all this, and nonviolently drive them from power. We cannot sit back while Black people’s right to vote is systematically decimated. We cannot cling tighter and tighter to norms and procedures, even if you personally believe in those norms, while those norms are being openly subverted in real time.
At a certain point, treating fascism as normal politics becomes a form of enabling monstrosity. At the same time, because this movement is so vicious. People absolutely do need to defend people’s right to vote, defend election workers, defend people against intimidation and repression; fight these attacks in every arena possible. People need to resist these fascist moves in every sphere of society, in the streets, in workplaces, on campuses, in culture, in the courts, where possible, and yes, if necessary, defending people against fascist intimidation at the polls themselves.
We need to stop cooperating and compromising and join together to become a united, organized political force that refuses to be ignored, refuses to be domesticated — a force that cannot be contained, that is unwavering in the demand that Trump Must Go Now! creating a dilemma not only for the fascists themselves, but for everyone in power who recognizes the danger Trump and MAGA pose, yet refuses to act to remove this regime from power. Because once the masses of people step into political life independently in sustained collective resistance, the whole political calculus changes. The terms of what is possible, what is realistic, what must be responded to, and the timeline for response, all of that changes.
But to get there we have to fully confront a difficult truth: As the elections are attacked and undermined, as power is stripped from the legislature, and elections become ever more weighted toward white supremacy, as the right to citizenship itself is undermined. People cling harder and harder to the belief that the election themselves can resolve all this. This is a counterproductive feedback loop. People are going to pour enormous energy into bigger voter registration drives and midterm strategies, and that is not going to resolve this crisis. Confining people’s political activities to elections, while the elections themselves are being stolen, is a recipe for disaster.
It is righteous that people in Tennessee stood up to say: Hell no! to Jim Crow 2.0. It is righteous what people have done in Alabama this past weekend as faith leaders led a march on the historic Edmund Pettus Bridge against the moves to decimate Black voting power, and elsewhere, where people are resisting these attacks. Too much right and righteous outrage is being funneled back into dead-end programs that refuse to confront the actual nature of what we are facing: A fascist regime locking down all of society. It’s worth saying again: Black people did not vote their way out of Jim Crow. Women did not vote themselves into voting power.
Rights are not won simply because people in power suddenly develop a conscience. Rights are one when the masses of people rise up and create a political crisis that the system cannot easily contain. This is what this moment demands. Fascist regimes always project invincibility, inevitability, but they have a weakness. The more millions of people openly resist, the more repression itself becomes risky. Because once people refuse to be intimidated, the regime faces a dilemma: back off, and resistance grows, crack down harder, and risk provoking even broader outrage, resistance and crisis. That is the dictator’s dilemma. What these fascists fear most is not simply losing an election. They fear losing control over the political terrain altogether. They fear millions of people stepping outside the narrow confines of politics as usual and refusing to cooperate with their cruel and brutal future. So it’s time for us to go all in on that. Now, here are my interviews with Tennessee State Senator Charlene Oliver and Tennessee State Representative Gloria Johnson.
Sam Goldman 03:25
Just a week ago today, Tennessee State Senator Charlene Oliver took a stand on the floor of the Tennessee legislature, holding a “No Jim Crow 2.0, Stop the Steal” banner and singing “Lift Every Voice and Sing” in protest against Tennessee’s GOP gerrymandering. This took place in the wake of the Supreme Court’s gutting of the Voting Rights Act. So I’m honored to speak with the Senator, who is also co-founder of the Equity Alliance, to discuss her actions, the accelerating assault on Black voting rights, and what the fight ahead demands of all of us. Welcome, Senator Oliver. Thank you so much for joining us.
Senator Charlene Oliver 11:36
Thank you, Sam, for having me. Happy to be here.
Sam Goldman 11:39
For people who haven’t been following closely what just happened in Tennessee? What did the Republicans actually do to the Memphis district, and why is it so consequential?
Senator Charlene Oliver 11:52
Tennessee is a Republican super majority state — they have all the power in the legislature, as well as the governorship. Right after the Voting Rights Act of 1965 was gutted, just a few days before, the Tennessee legislature wasted no time in calling a special session at the behest of Donald Trump, who spoke with our governor and told him to basically steal a House seat, so that he could remain in power, so that he could keep control of Congress. The governor called an illegal and unconstitutional special session when we had just come out of a regular session, just about two weeks prior to that, so if they really cared about doing this right, we could have done it during a regular session, but they didn’t. That’s why we know this was strictly about race, because the impetus was the Voting Rights Act being gutted from Section Two, saying they no longer have justifications for racial motivation. So we, in lightning speed, within three days, passed a mid-decade map where our laws basically required us not to reapportion the districts between censuses. So what we did was break the law by having a special session, and then we went and changed the law that told us we couldn’t do this while we’re in special session, and changed the maps so that Donald Trump can continue being above the law and evading prison time. We cracked Memphis, Shelby County, into three districts to dilute, specifically, the Black voting power there. Memphis is a majority Black city. They are the blackest city in America. They’re about roughly 65% African American. They are that way because Memphis is Memphis, and black people love to live in Memphis. It’s the culture, it’s MTAP. It’s not that way because of the Voting Rights Act. That’s what people need to understand. Because the Supreme Court ruling came down, it’s not because the Supreme Court ruling made us or compelled us to change these maps. It was a legal, constitutionally drawn map before we came into session. What the Republicans did was try to twist the ruling and say, oh, because you’re a majority minority district, we now must take you over and have a Republican in that seat.
Sam Goldman 14:05
Thanks so much for the breakdown. It’s exactly one week, and I’m just wondering, hopefully people have watched your actions on, like, Instagram Reels or TikTok reels. Hopefully, people have seen you literally get up on top of your desk and belt “Lift Every Voice and Sing.” I’m wondering, if you could tell us a little bit about what led you to decide that normal procedural opposition was going to be insufficient to what the people of Tennessee deserved.
Senator Charlene Oliver 14:36
Since I’ve been serving in the Tennessee General Assembly, this body has been super super harmful and hostile to democratic cities and Black folks. There is already precedent that we have set to say we do not like Black people; super racist legislature. So all of the things that we’ve done up until this point, unfortunately, was business as usual, but this moment was different for me. It was unprecedented. It was a slap in the face to all of the people — Black people, white people — who protested, marched, bled during Bloody Sunday to have our right to vote. It was a slap in the face to everyone who wanted to be seen as not three fifths of a human. I could not walk away with myself without sending a message to my Republican colleagues that this is serious, this is not business as usual, this is not partisan for us, this is life and death for us, and I’m not playing around, I’m not effing around with y’all. I needed to send the message and put it in their face, that what you’re doing is Jim Crow 2.0; What you’re doing is racist, and you need to sit with that, you need to be uncomfortable. Being in the Senate, there’s this decorum that we pride ourselves on. I don’t subscribe to respectability politics anyway, but we operate in a procedural way that is very different from the House in the sense that we’re the upper chamber, a lot of times we can sometimes kill legislation just because we are that dignified and we don’t let certain things go through, and sometimes they get it right. But, I needed to also let them know this was a moment to stand up, this was a moment to have courage. So I stood on that desk, because that’s not something you see in the Senate. I needed to speak past my colleagues to the people watching, to the people who were in the gallery upstairs, shouting at them. I needed people to understand that there are people fighting for you, we see you, we hear you. For those that aren’t paying attention, I needed to get their attention. I needed people to know what was going on. And it woke up the masses. It did, because a lot of people don’t know there’s a midterm going on. A lot of people don’t know what their government is doing with their tax dollars against them. I needed people to see what was happening, and to get on that desk and cause a ruckus.
Sam Goldman 16:58
Your actions were extremely inspiring, and I’m glad that you feel that too — that people were taking notice and also taking heart to see somebody literally stand up. I was wondering if there was anything else from that day in terms of opposition that you think is worth highlighting or lifting up that you think hasn’t gotten the attention that maybe it should.
Senator Charlene Oliver 17:24
Yeah. This is a legislature… this is a hostile work environment in Tennessee. Any step out of line will bring retribution from Republicans. They are just that petty. So I had to make a conscious decision that if I get on this desk, if I put this sign up… and by the way, I thought about what was I gonna put on the sign, like what was the message? At first I was gonna put on there: “Racist, Fascist, Confederates” — but I was like: You know what, I don’t wanna talk to y’all; I wanna speak to the people; I need people to know this is Jim Crow 2.0. So I was going to be okay and accept whatever retribution punishment may come. They wanted to expel me? Fine, so be it, this was worth it. They want to censure me? Fine, so be it, this was worth it. Because this moment was unprecedented, and we needed to do drastic measures to help people understand just how unprecedented this is. So there was other things happening in the building. I have never seen such barrage of protest at the Capitol in my life. Even before I was elected, I was an organizer, I was protesting when I was seven months pregnant up there. I have seen many a protest. But this felt fierce. It was tenacious. In the House, you had people in the gallery, they had these panic buttons that they threw on the House floor to sound these alarms, and they couldn’t figure out how to turn them off — kind of genius in my opinion. But you also had activists and organizers who aren’t elected, whose history books we may never know. I’ll lift up my organization that I co-founded, the Equity Alliance, that was right there on the front lines. Rachel Spriggs from Memphis, Tequila Johnson, my co-founder, Jess Williams, and then there’s Amber Sherman from Memphis, who I was in direct contact with. These are Black women — Black women were all up and through the resistance last week, from the organizers and activists to the legislators standing on their desk. Then, our majority leaders, Senator Ramesh Ackbery and Leader Karen Camper from Memphis, they were leading and keeping us united in the sense of we all agreed to do some direct action, and we were united in how we had a legal strategy. They were orchestrating all of this from the inside. You would never see that behind the scenes. We were meeting every day, with caucus meetings, we were meeting with attorneys. We had a strategy, and this is probably the most united our caucus has been in a long, long time. We need to keep that energy, because it’s gonna carry us forward into the midterms and beyond, because we need a united resistance, a multiracial resistance to win back Congress, but also just win back democracy.
Sam Goldman 20:13
I want to recognize the risk that you personally took. There’s the career risk, and then there’s also like the personal life risk, watching your banner be pulled down. I don’t know if people fully recognize…
Senator Charlene Oliver 20:28
Oh, I was defiant [SG: reacts joyfully] To pull my banner down… I told that Sergeant of Arms, I know you can’t see it on the video, but I said: “Don’t stand in the way of democracy. Don’t stand in the way of democracy, because that’s what you’re doing by trying to take my sign.” I get so angry, I get so frustrated, and emotional, because: How dare you? The audacity of these people to be complicit in fascism and authoritarianism, and not see how their actions are contributing to this. That’s really honestly why we’re here, why we’ve gotten so far down the rabbit hole. It’s because complicit people like that continue to go along to get along. It’s just terrible. And yes, I am getting threats, I’m getting hate mail in my inbox, in my email, but screw them. No one’s gonna take me off of my resolve of me being on the right side of history.
Sam Goldman 21:21
Absolutely. You talked a little bit about this, how you decided what you were going to put on your banner, and who you were directing the message to. e spoke about it on last week’s episode, but I wanted to get your opinion on why people saw “No Jim Crow 2.0″… Why is that what this is? Why is that the understanding that people need to get through their heads on what we’re seeing in Tennessee, and unfortunately in many other previously Confederate states.
Senator Charlene Oliver 21:52
I have been fighting this fight since Donald Trump came down that escalator in 2016, 2015. A lot of people who are just living their everyday lives fail to connect the dots on how his administration and his actions have led to their lives, the quality of life being just less — can’t even find the word for it, but — just horrible since he got into office. We need to understand that the states that have swiftly gone into action to call these special sessions, from Tennessee to Alabama to South Carolina, you name it — the southern states — were also the Confederate states that seceded from the Union during the Civil War.
These states and their descendants have not stopped fighting that Civil ar since 1865 The battle looks a little different, but it has not stopped. They are not using bullets anymore, they are not using nooses anymore to hang us and lynch us, they’re not using a Ku Klux Klan anymore to come into our homes and drag us out and terrorize us. They are using ballots to suppress the vote, they are using maps to draw us out of our districts and dilute our vote, and they are using state legislatures to do their bidding. We need to understand that these same Confederate states are the same Confederate states today who want to try to put Black people back into our place and take us back to a time in Jim Crow where we had Black codes and criminalize us for simple infractions, to a time where there were no Black people in office. They won’t stop until there’s a white only government. They’re gonna try to draw me out of my district.
That’s what people need to understand — why the Jim Crow 2.0 message is what this is, because we are trying to return back to a time in our history that where it was most ugliest; where it was racial terror for us. We are not going back. There’s a saying in my community we talk about: e are not our ancestors. We are not our ancestors, but we have learned the tools and strategies of our ancestors. We are a little bit more wiser than they are. We got some fight in us, just like they do. And so, in some ways, we are, but a lot of ways we are stronger than our ancestors could be. We’re not going back to that time, no matter how hard they draw a map.
Sam Goldman 24:18
There’s a need for us to learn from history, even as what we face now is different So our response is going to have to be different, but there’s definitely things that we can look to, both for inspiration, but also hard lessons of collective missteps, we’ll call it that, where we can and must do better going forward. I wanted to return to last Thursday, and some of the fallout. My understanding is that Democratic lawmakers have been removed from committees. I’m wondering, what else has transpired in terms of response that you know about that you think is important to recognize? What has happened? If you want, maybe there’s the positive, the support, or momentum that you’ve seen in terms of fighting against the decimation of Black voting rights, but also in terms of opponents and inside the legislature itself.
Senator Charlene Oliver 25:18
Well, immediately after session adjourned, the Speaker of the Senate, who is also the Lieutenant Governor, called my action standing on the desk outrageous and unprecedented and unbecoming of a Senator. That’s just a way to try to ridicule me and be about respectability politics. But I’m sorry, the Speaker, and neither any of my Republican colleagues get to be the moral authority on what is unprecedented, what is outrageous, what is performative, because, first off, let’s be real clear, this is the same party that capes for a 34 time convicted felon in the White House, who is also a pedophile, a sexual abuser, a womanizer, a con man, a corrupt cheap man, and a liar, who is on his way to dementia.
So they need to shut up about anybody being unbecoming, because their whole party is unbecoming, and don’t need to be in power. Excuse me, my southern-ness is coming out. Lieutenant McNally has called me outrageous. What we did was unprecedented and outrageous. Also, yes, we also are using every single tool in our toolbox at our disposal to fight this every step of the way. So, we have filed three lawsuits in Tennessee, challenging not only just the maps, but voters have filed lawsuits to say they are being harmed, and their rights are being taken away from the 14th and 15th Amendment.
You have candidates who are filing suit and saying they’re harmed, because you have people like Representative Justin Pearson, my friend, who was running in the ninth district, but can’t even vote for himself. They’ve been running this race well before the special session was called. Then you have election commissioners who are being forced to rush this election process through, and people won’t even know what district they’re in. So, yes, we are confident that the law is on our side, and the arguments are on our side to win this lawsuit. Then you have Speaker Sexton — Speaker of the House, Cameron Sexton — who removed all the House Democrats from their committees.
One, I just want to say, how performative that is. Because we are not in session anymore, we are done with the 114th General Assembly. That’s what the public doesn’t know. So, it looks big and bad to take us off committees, but we’re done. We won’t come back until January, and that means nothing to us. Yeah, sure, take us off committees, but we are not going to be silent. We are not backing down. We will still resist inside and outside the building. He only took the Black Democrats off their committees and the women who stood up. He didn’t take the white ones off, the white men. Yeah, they can say this ain’t about race all they want to. So I want people to be encouraged.
I want people to understand that we have more tools and more power than you think we do. The opposition knows our power, they know how powerful we are, which is why they’re coming after us and attacking our vote. Do we understand how powerful we are? Do we understand we are the working class who fuels these billionaires’ paychecks? Do we understand we are the consumers who keep these businesses in operation? Do we understand that the people have the ultimate say at the ballot box? So we need to unite around worker power, consumer power, and voting power. We need to vote with our dollars right now.
We need to also vote in the midterms, because they are banking on low voter turnout for people to feel depressed and defeated, and not come out to feel like this is a done deal. This is not a done deal. We have the power to vote in people in office in Congress in November who can overturn these maps, who can put in a John Lewis Voting Rights Act. We can actually present policy solutions that work better for us than what they’re doing now. We’ve gotta vote, but we also have to resist. We can’t just vote and walk away. We have to stay in the fight 365 days a year.
Sam Goldman 29:18
I think that’s being shown to us. I need something louder than a megaphone, like, like a tornado warning alarm, is how they are telling us that this is going to take more than voting. They’re showing that they are ready to subvert the vote because they know how unpopular they are, and they know that that is a losing fight, and they’ve shown time and time again that they are willing to use whatever dirty trick they want, and violence isn’t out of the question for them. Your point about people using every tool in their toolbox and doing things that they may not be comfortable with doing — now’s the time to get a little uncomfortable.
I was wondering as we close out our conversation, if we could return to history, a little bit about how voting rights were actually won in the first place. They weren’t gifted from above. People resisted, they marched, but they also put forward real sacrifice; they put their lives on the line. I’m wondering: What lessons from that history, do you think matter most right now that you would like people to take to heart, understand, act on, while we still can?
Senator Charlene Oliver 30:30
I have been reflecting ever since last Thursday on Dr. Martin Luther King’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail, and just all of his speeches. Because at that time when he was in Montgomery, a lot of people weren’t okay with what he was doing with protesting. He talks about the white moderates who always want to tell us: ait, wait, wait, wait, wait, it’s not time yet. That still is happening today. But one of the things that keeps going off in my head is a quote about an unjust law is no law at all. What is happening, and what we’re seeing today are unjust laws being projected upon us. It is up to us to decide whether we are going to obey and comply or revolt.
Back in the 60s, they made real sacrifices. They had to make a choice: are they okay with dying today? I’m not asking anyone to lose their life. I’m not asking anyone to lay their life on the line, but I am asking people, what are you willing to give up so that the collective can continue? What are you willing to sacrifice? I was willing to sacrifice my entire legislative career last Thursday, because it’s just that important. We need to give up some small things — give up that Netflix subscription for six months and donate it to fighters like myself and Representative Pearson, who are literally laying it all on the line — give up that cup of coffee, or that Saturday morning brunch, and go help a candidate knock a door, or go organize in your own community. We need to do some things differently. Those are the lessons that I take from me. When I hear an unjust law being no law at all, is that we have to decide that enough is enough.
Sam Goldman 32:22
I want to thank you so much, Charlene, for taking the time to speak with me, to share your experience, and to share your insights and perspective, and, for taking up this fight. I am wishing you and everyone in Tennessee that’s fighting alongside you, all the best in this resistance.
Senator Charlene Oliver 32:44
Thank you. I want people to know, Tennessee is not a lost cause. There are progressive fighters in Tennessee, like myself, who have been here all along. We’re just waiting on you to join us. Thank you for having me.
Sam Goldman 33:01
Today, I’m speaking with Tennessee Representative Gloria Johnson about the accelerating attacks on Black voting rights, mounting concerns over election subversion, and how Tennessee has become a warning sign for the future. Good morning, Representative Johnson. Thank you so much for joining.
Representative Gloria Johnson 33:18
Good morning, thanks for having me. Happy to be here.
Sam Goldman 33:21
This past week has been, really, a week for the white supremacists in the South. They are, sadly, living their best lives. I was hoping that we could first talk about what happened last week — what happened last Thursday. What you likened to a white power rally, and what the impact it is for Tennessee.
Representative Gloria Johnson 33:45
Yeah. It was, what I called it from the beginning: A white power rally. It was a white power grab. That’s what it was. They saw an opportunity. Our governor and the super majority pretended as if this lawsuit meant we had to do this. We did not have to do this. No lawsuit required that we go back there and we redraw our maps. What it did, it gave greedy, cowardly white supremacist men the opportunity to do it. But it was not required, because Memphis was not drawn the way it was drawn, because of race. Memphis was our only compact area that was enough people for a congressional district. Memphis has been drawn that way for almost a hundred years.
So it wasn’t what they were claiming by any stretch of the imagination. We all know what was intended with our congressional district, like areas that deserve representation, and that was Memphis. Because that county is so large, they had enough members for a Congressional district. So it made sense to have it as a county, and yes, it’s a majority Black county. So, yes, what they did was remove the voting power from that majority Black county, and from Black voters. But if you understand what’s been happening in Tennessee since we’ve had a super majority, it’s all about stopping the vote. They’ve made it criminal to register voters. We had a Black Voter Project a few years back, where they registered 90,000 voters in Memphis, and then they criminalized registering people to vote. So this has been ongoing in Tennessee, but what you see, certainly in the House with this current Speaker, just an acceleration of white supremacist policy. Tennessee is really the tip of the spear. You’ve got Project 2025 nationally, but we started with Project 2023 in Tennessee. Then they did expel two Black members because they spoke truth.
Sam Goldman 36:04
I really appreciate that context. That’s something that deserves more attention. We frequently have talked on this show, in particular, about these laboratories that existed. We talked about a lot, how it was a model for what they wanted to do, should they be able to consolidate power nationally, and now we’re seeing that. Since the Supreme Court decision that did gut the Voting Rights Act, we’ve seen all these previous Confederate states rush to decimate Black voting power. One question that I was hoping that we could get into is: A lot of people, a lot of your colleagues, in particular, have rightly, in my opinion, likened this to Jim Crow 2.0. I don’t think that many people understand why that is a correct comparison at this moment, and I was wondering if you want to shed some light on that.
Representative Gloria Johnson 37:00
Yeah, yeah, you know, so I called it Jim Crow with a Sharpie, and that’s what this is. With so much in the media, you get these top line talking points, and that’s all people understand. What they don’t understand is when you go into a district that’s a compact district, Congressional district, because it’s considered like voters, they have a lot of the same interests and needs, and you want the representative for that district to understand the needs and wants of that area, whether it be a city area or a rural area. Rural areas are different. You want someone from the rural area who can address those particular needs. What they have done is they’ve gone into Memphis, and they keep saying that they didn’t use any data on demographics or race, but literally divided it 30/30/29. That’s surgical precision. Do not lie to me. They said they only use census data, and that it was partisan, but there’s no partisan data in census data. They are liars. They have been lying this entire time, and people say: Well, they still have a vote, they didn’t remove their power. But what they did was remove their ability to have someone that cares about those people in Memphis’ needs and wants, and the distinct differences between, say, Memphis and southern Middle Tennessee. Once again, we’re going back to removing Black voters’ ability to be represented by someone who understands what their area needs.
Sam Goldman 38:43
That’s really important. I feel like people often hear voter suppression, and they think, you know, they envision repression at polling places or ID laws, and I think that it’s a little bit harder for folks to understand how breaking apart communities, redrawing districts, strips people of their political power, even if they technically still retain the right to vote.
Representative Gloria Johnson 39:07
Yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s the thing. Well, they still can vote. Well, yes, they can vote, but it’s not gonna be someone who represents their district and their area, and that’s what’s so important. They say: The law still says you can’t draw by race. Well, they drew these by race; they drew this to divide race specifically. So I think these maps are unconstitutional. We’ll see what the courts say, but you know, here in Tennessee, we’ve seen it before. We saw it just after the census, where they did the same thing in Nashville. They went in and cracked that city and divided into three different districts, where Nashville doesn’t have someone representing them specifically. The bigger portion of their district is out in rural Tennessee, so that is the person that’s going to represent the needs of a city, and it doesn’t make sense. It’s not good government. When we redistricted in 2021 for the state maps, they came into my district that I’ve lived in for 30 years, had a house there for 30 years in the same precinct — they broke up my precinct and drew my block — just my block — out of my precinct, and drew me into the only other Democratic district in the county. We have seven house reps in Knoxville, and two of them are Democrats. We have no Democratic Senators. They drew my block into the only other Democrats’ district, so they could get rid of me. So I moved out of the house that I own and lived in for 30 years, and rent a house six blocks away, so that I can run again to represent this area. That’s the kind of things that they do. This is surgical precision designed to lessen the impact and dilute the impact of Black voters and of Democrats overall as well. But just this travesty of diluting the Black vote is not acceptable. I live in probably like a 50/50 Republican Democratic district, and the Republicans in my district do not support this. That’s the thing that people don’t understand. When we talk statewide, almost 40% of Tennessee votes Democratic. We have nine congress people. Three of those easily should be Democrats, out of fairness, because we have more than 30% so we should have three of those nine representatives, but they have gerrymandered each of the districts that were Democratic, so that it’s impossible for a Democrat to win. It’s theft. They are stealing. They are stealing Black votes and Black voter power. It’s racist. We are a state now that regularly has racists marching in our city streets. We just had some racist idiot, Chud the Builder, that was going all over Nashville calling people the ‘N’-word, and what happens? A couple days ago, he tried to shoot somebody. He did shoot somebody. He also accidentally shot himself, and now he’s charged with attempted murder. This is who these people are. If people weren’t getting hurt, it would be funny. But they are dangerous. One of the neo-Nazi groups beat up a man downtown. They’re showing up and marching in our streets, and people like: Why are these folks showing up? Because the Tennessee legislature welcomes them. The Tennessee legislature says: Come on in, we welcome your ideas, because that’s the policy we have. Then, the super majority, they punished us — in the House — we got removed from our committees for standing together and locking arms, but the reality is it’s so racist and bigoted. They bring violent policy, and then tell us to be civil. You don’t respond to violent policy with civility. I’m sorry, but that’s not meeting the moment. We didn’t speak out without permission. We didn’t break a rule, but they didn’t like it, and so they punished us. This is how utterly outrageous it was. I didn’t know this until yesterday. They removed us from our committees. They said all of the Democrats, is what I heard. I hadn’t seen everybody’s letter, but I know it was a lot of us. Somebody pointed out to me that the website, on the pictures of the committees for the website, they removed every Black Democrat — both male and female Black Democrats were removed from the website, and the Democratic women were removed from the website — but the white Democratic men were still pictured on the website under the committees. They went in there and removed all the women and all the Black people, but left all the white men. Now, since I made posts about it and drew attention to it last night, they fixed it, but it just demonstrates their racism. It’s like they can’t help themselves without revealing just how racist they are. That special session, I felt like I was at a three day Klan meeting. That’s really what it felt like.
Sam Goldman 44:27
I was stunned, but not stunned, you know? It’s like you’re shocked, but not surprised. When I had heard it, I think from Charlene yesterday, was when I heard that, because I assumed it would just be every Democratic lawmaker was removed. It is disturbing and laughable in a sense, of how cartoonish they are in their white supremacy, but this is no joking matter. What we’ve seen in Tennessee, in terms of the repression, is also an example of what we’ve seen nationally. You and Justin Jones and Pearson were already facing punishment, basically, for using your voice previously. Then, in light of these, what I found to be, and I hope many, many other people found it to be inspiring, powerful protests that you and other reps and senators participated in, along with many other activists inside and outside, that I think is a model for many, many other places to take your lead in immediate response to that repression.
Representative Gloria Johnson 45:38
Absolutely. We have to respond. We can’t respond to violent policy by sitting at our desk and voting yes or no. It’s just not meeting the moment. I always have to go back to John Lewis, we have to get in good trouble, necessary trouble. This is so necessary. The idea that they’re taking rights away from people and they expect us to sit quietly. That’s never happened in this country. It’s just ludicrous for them. And the idea that they’re so small-minded and so petty. When I heard about the removing the women and the Black members off the website, I busted out laughing, because I was shocked, but not surprised. They’re just so damn predictable. They are so predictable and petty and small-minded. I taught school for 27 years, so if someone is “acting out,” which is how they see us, I guess — a good teacher knows what to do and can prevent that and can easily move past it. Not these people, they lose their mind. They don’t know what to do when it’s out of their control. I’m so glad more of our members are recognizing that. This idea: Oh, we need to work with the other side — I don’t work with racists. I don’t work with people to ban books and ban people — that’s not what I do. If they want to work with us to expand Medicaid to fully fund our public schools, we just dropped to dead last in the country, 51st, in funding public schools. It is shameful. Just say, over a year ago, we were 47th and now we’ve dropped down to 51st. Work with me on fully funding our public schools. Work with us on expanding child care. We have 10% sales tax on groceries. Work with us to remove the state portion of sales tax on groceries, and really do something for Tennessee families, not take away their voting power. We have to get rid of this old idea that, oh, let’s go back to the way it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, it didn’t work for Black people, it didn’t work for brown people, it didn’t work for women. It worked for old white men, and we don’t want that. We want a multiracial, multi-generational coalition that recognizes this is not left and right, it’s right and wrong, and it’s billionaires and the rest of us. Until folks realize that all this division, them trying to divide us, is because they can’t beat us.
Representative Gloria Johnson 48:16
Two things that you said really resonate with me, in particular, you know, your point of: Why would we want to go back? Why would we want to go back to this fantasy land? The idea that we want to go back to normal when normal was not good. That on the one hand, and let’s be clear, they are not going to let us go back. To the degree that there is something redeemable, there is no going back to normal. They are going forward with the worst parts of our history on steroids.
Representative Gloria Johnson 48:49
My colleague Justin Jones always says…some people say: “the South will rise again” — Justin says: “The South will rise anew.” That’s what I like talking about; rising anew with this multicultural, multiracial coalition. We’ve gotta stop codifying racism. We’ve been doing it ever since I’ve been in the legislature. It’s just a fact. When you call it out, it’s interesting, because I think my colleagues across the aisle think it’s bad to be racist, because sure don’t like to be called racist. In the past, I’ve always tried to call the policy racist or a statement racist, and not to say you are a racist, but come on. I said on the House floor, if you vote yes for these maps, you are telling us you are a racist because you are, and there’s no way around it. But they get so angry. Well, we won’t call you racist if you don’t do racist things. It’s kind of simple.
Sam Goldman 49:47
I think that’s really important. And you know, there’s only so much walking like one, talking like one, acting like one, codifying like one, that you are one. At this point, if you are supporting in any way the Trump regime, you are. Your point about common ground is really important, because what happens when you seek that is the decent people are constantly making concessions, constantly losing grounds, and the fascists keep advancing — you’re going to always be doing things on their terms, not on the terms of decent, justice-loving people. As we close this conversation out, I wanted to get your thoughts on how we act right now in this moment outside of the state houses or the courthouses right now, as you talked about the right to vote is being ripped away, yes, in Tennessee, and all across the South. This is part of a whole fascist locking down of society, shredding the rights of people in general with a specific venom directed to Black people, and forcing them backwards. This is with a fascist party in the White House run by a genocidal lunatic who wants to seal his grip on power. In that situation, I feel like it becomes particularly important to defend this right that they are so hell-bent on taking away. How do we defend this right to vote?
Representative Gloria Johnson 51:19
As I said that day, don’t agonize, organize. I’m not hopeless, I am hopeful because of all the people who showed up on such short notice, and the organizations that are fighting and working hard. We’re out here building. We’ve got the movement and the march tomorrow. Unfortunately, I’m leaving the country and not gonna be able to be there, and I absolutely hate that, but I know it’s going to be a lot of people. We’ve just got to show this country, this administration, that we are not gonna lie down and take this. I don’t know why they think that we would, except that sometimes — I’m just going to be honest — I feel like some of my Democratic colleagues in the house, almost have Stockholm syndrome, where they think, well, if I’m going to pass even a little bill that doesn’t do much, I’ve got to kiss the ring and do something they told me to do. We cannot do that. As Democrats. We have to stand together and lock arms and not give them one inch and not think that we have to vote on some things the way they want us, so we can get a bill that names hot chicken the state food. Who cares? That’s not helping anybody. I mean, Jesus Christ, let’s make concessions to expand Medicaid, but not name hot chicken the state food, for heaven’s sakes. Stop pretending like you’ve gotta work with these people. As a super minority, I remember Stacey Abrams talking about your job as a super minority is to amend delay and defeat. That’s why me and members of the Progressive Caucus brought over 40 amendments to the bill of those maps, because you’ve got to try to amend, if possible, and then delay it as long as you can, and then defeat it. We defeated a lot of horrible legislation last session. I don’t know if you heard about our House Bill 793 which would prevent undocumented kiddos from attending public school. What that was, the sponsors blatantly told us, this is so we can challenge Plyler v. Doe and the Supreme Court decision. That would have affected the entire country. So we organized and busted our tails and beat that legislation. That’s what we are there to do, and we do it by standing together and not allowing them to split us, because they even try to split our caucus by offering certain members something if they do a particular thing that breaks with our caucus. We’ve got to stand together, and the people on the outside, we have to do the same thing — stand together, not let their attempts at division and hate against our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, and against our immigrant community, and all of that. That’s what this all is. Most of us see that very clearly. Like I said, even the majority of Republicans in my district don’t support this crazy stuff. We just need to show up and lift our voices and show out, because they are terrified. They are literally terrified of us. If we speak together as one voice, they cannot beat us.
Sam Goldman 54:34
Or at least it makes it a lot harder, much harder to. That’s exactly the lesson of this moment, is not capitulating. That’s a lot of what I’m hearing from you — not capitulating within the state House and not capitulating throughout society — saying: We’re not gonna allow this. That’s a really important lesson, and one that we’re going to have to act on together very quickly. I just want to thank you, Gloria, for taking the time to speak with us, to share your experience, your perspective, your insights, and for not shutting up, for being that loud voice saying: No, we’re not going to go along with it.
Sam Goldman 55:11
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