Episode 212 The GOP, Netanyahu & Jewish Safety

Sun, Jul 28, 2024 6:21PM • 56:05

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

fascist, trump, fascism, folks, jews, israel, part, state, country, movement, anti, christian, project, united states, work, politics, election, safety, move, american

SPEAKERS

Donald Trump, Graie Hagans, Sam Goldman

Graie Hagans  00:00

Anti-semitism. It is specific, but it is not unique. It is not a special manifestation that is disconnected from other systems of oppression that come out of a Christian European imperial worldview and politic of conquering and claiming the world. The right is using that conspiratorial anti-semitism and that theological anti-semitism to both galvanize and undergird their movement, but also to undergird so much of their policy plans. They’ve spent the last four or so years really learning what both is possible and is not possible with the Trump presidency. It’s not just ideas now. It is an actual plan about what it will mean to govern, centralizing a white Christian nationalist worldview politic from the highest office in the United States of America, which is nearly the highest office on the planet.

01:12

Music.

Sam Goldman  01:13

Welcome to episode 212 of the Refuse Fascism podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. I’m Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism exposes, analyzes, and stands against the very real danger and threat of fascism coming to power in the United States.

Sam Goldman  01:36

In today’s episode, we are sharing an interview with Graie Hagans, Chief Visions Officer for Bend the Arc. We discuss anti-semitism and the GOP, Jewish safety, Project 2025, Netanyahu and the genocide in Gaza, interventions we can take, ways to build communities of resistance, and much more.

Sam Goldman  01:58

But first, a big thank you to the patrons and sustainers that make this show possible with their donations of $2 or more a month. If you want to become a sustainer yourself, you can find out how to do so in the show notes, but it’s Patreon.com/RefuseFascism. Thanks to those who have gotten their Refuse Fascism t-shirts. If you haven’t, you can support Refuse Fascism by getting a t-shirt… or tank top — different colors, sizes, all that stuff — see the show notes — patrons have a discount code. Or, for zero monies, you can tell a friend about the show, share it on social media, rate the show on your listening platform, of choice, or be bold and write a review — they boost the show so much, and don’t you think that refusing fascism needs some boosting right now? And these reviews, they just mean a lot to us, so consider doing so after listening. 

Sam Goldman  02:54

Before the interview, some developments as they relate to the Republi-fascist threat from just this past week. Within days, delegates will vote on vice president Kamala Harris, and she will become the Democratic nominee for president. We’ve seen people move from largely resigned to Trump and fascism returning to the White House, to relief and exaltation. We are living in turbulent times, things can change quickly and dramatically. What seemed impossible becomes possible, both in terms of oppression and liberation. Where and what we put our confidence in, matters. Trump may lose the election, something that didn’t seem possible just a few weeks ago. But is everything just cool now? Has the fascist threat dissipated? We can sit back and laugh at J.D. Vance couch fucking memes and Trump jerk off videos now, because it’s in the bag? Trump is never getting back in the White House, right? Umm, No. Ask anyone who pedals this dreck to you where they have been for the past nine years? But seriously, here are just some real questions to ask them. Have the fascists dispensed with election denial as a core component of their campaign? Have they stopped lying about the 2020 election and preparing to overturn the results in 2024 if they lose? Have the fascists ceased in their efforts to subvert the election? Are they no longer working to restrict or outright discount votes? Have they given up on voter intimidation, gerrymandering or purging voter rolls? Or we can just listen to what Trump said on Friday at Turning Point Action Believers Summit:

Donald Trump  04:42

And again, Christians get out and vote. [cheers] Just this time.You won’t have to do it anymore. Four more years, you know what? It’ll be fixed. It’ll be fine. You won’t have to vote anymore, my beautiful Christians, I love you, Christians, I’m [not] a Christian, I love you. Get out. You gotta get out and vote. In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not going to have to vote

Sam Goldman  05:09

If they are saying there won’t be any real elections if they’ve received power, does this sound like a people that have any intention of letting a pesky thing like an election stop them? Or has the MAGA base turned on Trump? Have they given up the holy battle they are in? What they see as the last battle in a fight to save their country between God’s glory and eternal damnation? Has the GOP become less Trumpian? Have they said: You know what, we don’t want a mango Mussolini messiah, if we lose the election, we will accept the results, pack it up, go home? Do you think the extremely high production value deep fake “parody” that Elon Musk shared on Friday will be the last? That these manipulated tools in the hands of revolting billionaires couldn’t sway anything? Is the Supreme Court no longer dominated by fascists? Did they not just grant Trump immunity? Is it really impossible that they might work to find a way to hand trump the election? And there’s really no chance that anyone, anyone in the military, steeped in delusions and faith in Trump taking action, believing they are doing so at “President Trump’s” direction? Not in a military, which made a big deal to initiate a self audit for fascists in their ranks and then reneged on their commitment to make the results public! In short: Have the fascists stopped being fascist? Fomenting and relying on jingoism, xenophobia, misogyny, white supremacy, “traditional Christian values” to seize and consolidate power by whatever means necessary or possible with an expanded and updated legal and extra legal apparatus? Oh, and seriously, no chance that Trump legitimately-ish wins? Just gonna delude ourselves about the fascist base in this country like it’s 2016. Did we miss it where this country is not deeply divided, with one side gunning for a civil war, just salivating around Trump’s promise of blood in the streets if he’s not anointed the victor… And they’re gonna accept losing without any struggle, to a Black woman? The nation is suddenly united around civil and democratic rights? Right. Okay. Must have missed it. And as for the Democratic Party: Do you see them calling their base into the streets against the fascist mob? or defying a supreme court if they hand over the election to Trump? Because the last time the fascists came, rolling coup at all, the Democratic Party told you to sit your ass at home. Are they suddenly going after Trump and the GOP for being fascists, holding him and the coup plotters accountable, going back in time and erasing all the ways they have enabled, accommodated and sought to collaborate with the Republican Party as fascism further entrenched and ascended? Look, my message here isn’t about voting. It’s about Reliance. Fascism isn’t inevitable, but it isn’t over. It’s about preparing for real political struggle now, that very likely, will not be over on election day. It’s about confronting the seriousness, the scariness, the reality of the fascist threat we face, so we can act accordingly. This is a key part of what the show does, and the community you are a part of when you share it, IRL or online, and discuss it with others. We’ll be off for the next two weeks, and encourage you to go back through our episodes for more resources. Give them a listen, and let us know how you are using the show to forge understanding and relationships we need to really refuse fascism.

Sam Goldman  08:56

At the same time that the Harris campaign is primarily consistent with what came before, the fact that she is the face of the ticket is more than enough for the fascist movement to open the racist, sexist floodgates against her. This recipe of one part perception of progress stirred into a hundred parts maintaining the status quo has proven to be one of the most volatile cocktails throughout American history. Many of us remember how the racist backlash against Obama’s victory played a key role in fueling the Tea Party movement, which was itself a major step towards what we now know today as MAGA. But that’s not the only time. We could look at the massacres that followed Andrew Jackson’s treaties with native peoples. We could look at the bloody end of Reconstruction. I think it’s also worth pointing back to the election of Lincoln. Lest we forget, honest Abe’s initial program coming into office was to maintain the slave system while confining it to the South. But, the proto fascist movement of his time saw any limits on slavery as an existential threat to their freedom, and took up arms against the federal government. In just the week since Harris became the likely candidate for the Democratic Party ticket, the Trump subreddits and truth social cesspools have been overflowing with memes of sexual humiliation, Fox News hosts and Republican strategists are throwing around their newest euphemisms for the ‘N’ word, “DEI candidate.” And let’s look at what J.D. Vance has said: Since the resurfacing of his 2021 comments about the country being run by “a bunch of childless cat ladies,” referencing Kamala Harris in particular, he’s only doubled down. He made clear that his problem was not with the cats, but with the ladies, especially the childless variety. The VP candidate of one of the two major parties really did say that people with children should have more voting power than those without. He said that people without children don’t have a “direct stake in our country.” It’s true that you hear a lot of those reactionaries, and too many others honestly, saying: Oh, I didn’t know what love or connection felt like before my child was born — but the fact that many of these birth fetishists are wholly incapable of anything resembling empathy towards literally anyone else until they create a little human that they can claim as their own property — that’s on them. The capacity to care about others regardless of biological relation is a low bar, but it’s antithetical to the fascist movement. Vance’s statements are clear attacks on the rights won by women over the past century, and more — the right to be more than a baby maker and housewife. Vance believes women should be subordinate to their fathers, husbands and male children, not sitting in the Oval Office. These words illuminate his program, Trump’s program, the Republi-fascist party’s program, the program articulated in Project 2025: the brutal enforcement of traditional white Christian fundamentalist gender roles. Speaking of brutality, this week, Benjamin Netanyahu, the fascist Prime Minister of Israe carrying out a barbaric genocide of the people of Gaza, was welcomed with open arms by the U.S. government, at the invitation of leaders from both major parties. He officially addressed a joint meeting of Congress. He met with Kamala Harris, with Joe Biden and with Donald Trump. At the Capitol building, he was cheered with multiple standing ovations throughout an hour long speech highlighted by deadly and thoroughly debunked lies. Literally, as he spoke, his government was dropping bombs on Palestinians, killing children via sniper. Thousands protested outside, but besides repeated bouts of raucous applause, the room was silent as Bibi performed the classic strongman fascist dictator. This complicity was enforced by Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson’s, explicit threat against any disruption. But there’s more to it than that. It’s true that not every member of Congress showed their support. Over one hundred meekly registered their disapproval by simply not showing up, and Rashida Talib, the only Palestinian American in Congress, silently held up a paddle with the words “Guilty of Genocide” and “War Ciminal” throughout the speech. But what did the world see? The world saw deference, respect, and even admiration. Because while the world watches the most heinous, bloodthirsty slaughter livestreamed directly to our devices, for both sections of the ruling class, the Democrats and Republicans, what they see in Historic Palestine today is order. They stand united in recognizing the total dominion of Israel over that land, from the river to the sea  as a key component of the U.S. dominated world order — a necessity for the stability of their empire — and any challenge to that must be eliminated. Their cheers are both a shock to the conscience today, but also a window into the consistent and often enthusiastic collaboration and accommodation of the liberal sections of the ruling class to fascism, whether it be in Israel, or India, or Hungary, or here in the U.S., because while they may try to do things differently, for them, justice doesn’t hold a candle to order, even if it’s the order of fascism. With that, here is my interview with Graie Hagans.

Sam Goldman  14:31

Today I’m speaking with Graie Hagans, Chief Vision Officer of Bend the Arc. Bend the Arc works at uniting progressive Jewish voices across the United States to fight for justice for all. Welcome Graie. Thanks for joining me.

Graie Hagans  14:44

Thank you so much for having me.

Sam Goldman  14:46

People have been talking a lot about Project 2025, or hearing the words “Project 2025” a lot. The RNC and Trump’s first term have really shown us how antisemitism is integral to this modern American fascist movement. I was hoping that you could talk to us a little bit about what role antisemitism plays, how this relates to other deep hatreds and resentments that propel and cohere this movement, and where you see this going in this moment.

Graie Hagans  15:23

Absolutely, and again, thank you so much for having me. When I think about antisemitism, we’re at a particular inflection point where we’re still kind of in the heat of the debate even about what the definition of antisemitism is, and therefore, how do we actually challenge the infrastructure of antisemitism? I’ll speak a little bit about kind of the work that we’ve been holding around framing antisemitism, and particularly around some messaging intervention work that we’ve been doing — firmly believing that the way that we talk about anti semitism, as well as other manifestations and frameworks of oppression, actually leads us to either good or bad solutions, not to [be] overly binary. I think it’s very much wrapped up in kind of the projects around, how do we define and experience safety, and what do we actually expect from one another? When I think about anti semitism, I think some of it is, there’s a hatred, there’s a bias model of understanding that largely gets us into the place of kind of interpersonal manifestations of systemic oppression. When I think about antisemitism, I particularly think about the kind of conspiratorial politics that actually undergirds so much of right wing political thinking and right wing worldview politics right now. Particularly, when we think about, historically, antisemitism coming out of kind of the development of white Christian European power building, the kind of developments of Catholic Church and of worldwide Christianity, and the way that that then was transmitted through projects of colonialism and Imperial missionary work; the kind of work that has actually kind of transformed and shaped so much of the world. A part of that kind of was also the carrying of kind of a theologically inflected antisemitism that particularly kind of framed Jewish people and Jewish being is fundamentally anti-Christian, or anti-Christ, the kind of Jews killed Jesus, kind of thinking and theology, and some of that then lives kind of in relationship to a supersessionist theology that says actually that Christians are the True inheritors of the covenants made between God and Abraham, and therefore all the descendants of Abraham — folks kind of see themselves as the true Jews of the Bible. And certainly, those two things are very live right now in terms of, particularly, the right’s framework and expression of a right wing Christian nationalist politic and plan for the country. I think that then lives at the intersection around the demographic shifts of the country — since the last decade or so, the flagging of the shift from a majority white country to a majority minority country, in which white folks will no longer singularly have the singular ethnic majority status of the country — which is its own bag of things around conversations about: How do we get to a singular white ethnic identity?  As you know, a related project. For a number of years, folks kind of responded to that, either with like an excitement of the country in the future will be brown and queer and swirly and all that good stuff. As both a biracial Black person and a trans person and a queer person, there’s many of us who already exist and live out here, and while life is beautiful, and I’m out here to claim all of it, life is hard out here as well. But this project of kind of reclaiming Christianity and Christian identity as central to kind of the right wing vision about what the country can look like in both the way that says actually whiteness as a social construct can stretch; it can actually include more people as much as it can actually exclude people that it actually can also expand, hence getting a majority singular white ethnic identity in the United States. Antisemitism kind of lives alongside that, both as a consistent boogeyman of the Jews lingering both as enemies to that kind of Christian nation building project, but also the white identity nation building project — both because, for many kind of Christian European imaginations, Jews are hiding in plain sight, Jews are in the background, kind of controlling things, and you really kind of get that idea from the mix of the theological kind of framework of Christian anti-Judaism, and through kind of the process of the European enlightenment, scientific revolution, industrial revolution, those ideas get modernized into race science that says there’s a hierarchy of human value, human intelligence, human beauty, etc., and Jews are not quite like Christian European folks, but are certainly on that spectrum and hierarchy, but are always suspicious and kind of consistently outside interlopers who are trying to control things. You kind of see that transmitted through, you know, we call the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which then gets, kind of transmitted across the world. But it’s important to name that antisemitism. It is specific, but it is not unique, in that it is not a special manifestation that is disconnected from other systems of oppression that come out of a Christian European imperial worldview and politic of conquering and claiming the world, developed alongside Islamophobia and Orientalism. It’s developed alongside anti-Black racism. It is developed alongside hetero patriarchy and misogyny. It is developed alongside all of these other mechanisms of being able to kind of control and binary society. So we look at now in the United States, this kind of reactive right wing movement that is naming itself as kind of reclaiming the American spirit and reclaiming what was previously good about America: this Make America Great Again, this America First kind of movement is also created with kind of precarity for lots of American Jews — both around kind of the protection of white identity that has been afforded to many, not all, including myself, Jewish folks in the United States, but also a reconfiguration of what does it mean for America to be a pluralistic, democratic society right now? So watching the way that lots and lots of American Jews are particularly feeling that sense of precarity and that kind of a threat, as we’re watching the increase in antisemitic incidents and some of the confusion again about: What is antisemitism? What counts as antisemitism? Is anti-Zionism, inherently antisemitic? Can you be pro Israel and be antisemitic? These kind of questions feel very live, but what is not confusing is the way that the right is using that conspiratorial antisemitism and that theological antisemitism to both galvanize and undergird their movement, but also to undergird so much of their policy plans — particularly thinking about the invasion rhetoric that has been so heavy, and is not new in this presidential cycle, but definitely has kind of reached a certain kind of fever pitch. I think about the way the great replacement theory ideology, and this idea that Jews are secretly using immigration and miscegenation to overturn the demographic power of white folks in the United States, and overturn the demographic power of Christians in the United States. That has certainly been something that has been very vocal and very central to so much of the right wing political project, not just in the United States, but also globally. But in the U.S., has been very much concentrated around particularly the border, and more and more around national security and protecting American Jews from antisemitic college students or something.

Sam Goldman  22:37

Really appreciate that thorough breakdown and the nuance and history that we need to base ourself in to understand what we see happening and unfolding in front of us. I wanted to move into… you alluded the presidential campaign, and I wanted to just further excavate a little bit of what we on the show call the Republi-fascist program. One of the things that I appreciate about Bend the Arc is that you’re not afraid of using the word ‘fascist’ to accurately describe a political program. You don’t use it as an insult or a slur. But if we want to address what we face, we have to name what we face first. [chuckles] So I just wanted to express that appreciation. You know, a lot of people have been hearing about Project 2025, and some people have some vague sense that it’s ominous, or a threat, or maybe some vague sense that it’s a thoroughly Christian nationalist, reactionary document. Sometimes what gets lost is Agenda 47, which is Trump’s own platform. While we can all laugh about them trying to distance themselves from Project 2025, and how ludicrous all that is, but I don’t think that that’s really the point. I think the question is: What is their program? They’re very masks off about it, they’re telling us exactly what it is, which I think can be an advantage. So I just wanted to give you an opportunity to speak, Graie, about what you think people might not be aware of that we need to reckon with.

Graie Hagans  24:13

I think for me, one of the primary things is that sense of: It’s real. I think there’s something about what you just named about their… We used to say: They’re saying that the quiet parts out loud. That used to, from the perspective of, like, activism and organizing, there were these years of being like, we gotta, you know, make the invisible visible. What a strange conundrum moment where it’s very visible. I’m one of those people that was early being like: Project 2025, have y’all seen it? Have y’all heard it? Have y’all looked at it? This is wild. Then, all of a sudden, we went to every news outlet is running stories about Project 2025, and both having that moment being like, wow, the media is doing so much of the political education and the public education for us right now, and, I have a sneaking suspicion that we don’t get, that: It’s real. Some of it is the almost laughability of Trump, still, as a political figure. He still kind of carries some of that veneer of: He’s goofy — He’s… listening to some previous episodes, and that language of cartoonish in describing Trump, in some ways, still feels very real. Some of it, actually, I think, is comforting for those of us, kind of on the other end of the political spectrum, to imagine these kind of goofy, laughable kind of characters. Certainly some of that is that kind of manifestation that I’ve heard other folks talk about on the show, kind of the way that we tell the history. How much of American media post World War Two is about kind of laughable Nazis, and that kind of energy? And if you study the history of authoritarians, fascists, dictators, etc., a lot of them are hysterically goofy in many ways, from a personality standpoint, from the weird personality quirks and the things that they do, and that does not make them any less dangerous. Some of what we might think of as the most laughable kind of characters in world history have also had some of the highest body counts in terms of the way that they led the infrastructure of their governments to create mass death and destruction. So I think there is something about meeting our own history and understanding that laughing may be cathartic, it may be a good time sometimes with close friends, but that actually does not make the seriousness of the situation any less dire. There’s something about, for me, being able to sit with the sobering reality of: They mean this as a plan. Whether we’re talking about the Project 2025 plan, not just a vision or set of ideas, but they’ve spent the last four or so years really learning, kind of what both is possible and is not possible with the Trump presidency. I’ve been thinking a lot about, in terms of this presidential election, the way we have, kind of, the risk of Trump’s presidency the first time, in some ways, was not as bad as many of us thought it would be. For many of us who are kind of raising the flags and raising the concerns about fascism, about authoritarianism in the United States — certainly for Bend the Arc, since 2015, saying: We’ve seen this before, and calling this Trumpism, particular manifestation of American fascism aligning underneath of him and the kind of cult of personality that has developed around him. Again, looking at so much of the history, and when we think about the history of Jews globally, and the kind of worst case scenario that many of us hold and fear, it’s also sometimes a sobering reminder to remember that the Third Reich, and Hitler’s ascendancy to power, for instance, was not an overnight phenomenon. In fact, Mein Kampf, the kind of classic antisemitic fever dream of Adolf Hitler’s, that was a prison manifesto. He tried it the first time and it didn’t work. Mussolini tried it the first time and it didn’t work. I think there’s so much about both the way that the right has been able to kind of test our sensibilities and has a sense both of the long arc. So much of Project 2025 is like the fifty year plan of conservatives — whether it is dismantling the Federal Department of Education or outlawing the word abortion in federal documents and policy, but those are long term visions and plans. Trump and even J.D. Vance are just kind of figureheads that actually can be switched out for someone else. It’s whoever is actually willing to play the role and willing to do the thing. Whatever was not possible in Trump’s first presidency, really, some of it was because he is a goofy, almost cartoonish kind of person. He has seemingly little to no interest in actually being a president or presidential beyond kind of the way that he can leverage power, and his kind of sense of firing people, his sense of like ego, of moving that way, meant that he kind of was president the first time without a full deck of cards. Right now, there’s an infrastructure that is being built out to replace much of the federal civil servants. There is an infrastructure being built out to move from kind of the intellectual and vision of the right to actually move to the implementation of that set of policies. And what is not possible on the federal level, absolutely will be moving at the state level. Watching the kind of coalescence of this movement that is gearing itself up to actually govern this time. For me, that is particularly the thing that is very different and is very concerning. It’s not just ideas now, it is an actual plan from day one moving forward about what it will mean to govern, centralizing a white Christian nationalist worldview politic from the highest office in the United States of America, which is nearly the highest office on the planet.

Sam Goldman  29:53

Incredibly ominous, and there’s no way to sugarcoat that. I think that there’s this lack of understanding around the big tent approach. People think that it’s not a big tent, but there is a big tent for this, and it just is worth noting, what that big tent is based in. There are some things that are universal — you’ve gotta get behind this in order to get in the tent. You’ve gotta love patriarchy to get in the tent as a foundational tenet. You can be an immigrant, sure, but you have to be an American chauvinist immigrant. You have to be one of the “good ones,” or something like that. The fact that you can have really concerted efforts as they’re trying to unify around things, what they’re doing is still trying to divide out and other. Thinking about the really grotesque effort to bring Black folks into the movement based on delusions of migrants stealing jobs. Those kind of things are just completely disgusting, but they also provide an opportunity, I think. If we’re able to recognize and see what’s being done, there’s, I think, opportunity for great acts of solidarity and great acts of stepping into that and saying: Well, actually, why is this situation happening? Who gains from the divisions that are created? That kind of thing. That was an aside, but it’s just something that I’ve been thinking about — always thinking about, where is our opportunity, where is our potential. What could we be wading into that if we were having more of those conversations, would pull people. Again, I do not in any way want to overstate the degrees to which Black folks are getting brought into Trumpism. Are Black folks coming into Trumpism? Absolutely. But I also don’t want to overstate that in the sense of, like it is not the majority of people that are aligned with this program. So I think that there’s balancing that as well.

Graie Hagans  31:52

Absolutely. For me, there is something about genuinely looking at… we understand that Trump and this movement is not some phenomenon that popped up overnight out of nowhere. This is authentically American. This is galvanizing the kind of foundational white supremacy and foundational kind of white folks, first white nationalist, part of this political project, which has always been feared actively, that has precipitated the mass murder and attempted genocide of indigenous folks across the continent, that precipitated the infrastructure of chattel slavery against black folks, that precipitated the kind of massive housing segregation and school based segregation that still persists in the United States, for example — you could go on. It’s really both highlighting the kind of desire for a return to a mythic kind of America in which, it’s not just kind of about the mythic America for white folks, it’s also the mythic America of folks who are seeking to be upwardly mobile, or seeking the American dream actively — it’s really galvanizing folks at those points. Looking at the things that feel like they are tensions or creating places of competition, you kind of named this idea and this narration that migrants are actively taking folks’ jobs, or New York City, the story about all these migrants are being brought in and given all this money, meanwhile, folks who have lived in the city for 50 years ain’t getting nothing. I go back to some of the mistakes that oftentimes get made over and over and over again by those of us who are well meaning, feel like we have good politics, good liberal arts educations, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah — myself absolutely included — and this kind of story about our own sense of self righteous intelligence, sometimes. I remember when Abbott and DeSantis first started to load up planes and trains and automobiles and every other thing they could, and shipping folks to the northeast and to other parts of the country, and I remember the way that that was received as like political theater. And I had a moment where I was like: This is not just political theater. Sure there is that element of it — and the part of this that we are not prepared for is actually the way that this will absolutely test the infrastructure capacities of so called sanctuary cities, the way it will actually test the integrity of the politics of that kind of movement towards sanctuary cities, the movement towards saying that democratically controlled cities will be welcoming spaces for migrant and immigrant communities, and it’s a real test of: Well, let’s see how you actually deal with that when you actually do not have the infrastructure ready to absorb tems of thousands of new people. That is not a crisis about immigration the way that it is narrated to be so right now, but it is absolutely a crisis of, how do you manage a city, a municipality, a county, a state in which you have a significant influx of people. Instead of actually solving for those problems, we’ve gotten trapped in kind of the rhetorical part of the work. We have to figure out how to walk and chew gum at the same time. We’re watching right now the way that those kinds of dynamics have also created the kind of context that there’s new demands for safety, where you have communities saying, Well, I feel less safe. I feel less secure — whether it is safe in the sense of protection of my bodily safety or the safety of my property and things I own, or whatever it may be, but also certainly the sense of: I need to be protected from the kind of threats that actually upend my ability to be upwardly mobile and be a part of the American dream. So I think there’s ways in which kind of the competition amongst communities as being further exacerbated in a moment in which there’s absolutely not just political polarity, but absolute kind of class polarity in the country that continues to grow right now. There’s so much about the way that those things are playing out that are oftentimes getting missed, the way that we’re continuing to be set up to choose the trade off of my safety, my family’s safety, my community safety versus that of others in a zero sum game that I don’t know that we have genuine proof of concept possibilities on the other end of that.

Sam Goldman  36:14

I wanted to transition our conversation a little bit. On the day we’re recording this, Netanyahu is speaking to Congress in D.C. at the invitation of the leadership of both major parties in the United States. The genocide that he is perpetuating in Gaza shocks the conscience, and it would not be possible without the material and political support of the United States. Thousands of Jews are expected to be protesting this visit, along with many others. I believe 400 Jews and allies participated in a sit in at Congress yesterday. I think there were, like 400 arrests — signs reading things like: “Never Again for Anyone, Anywhere”, “Jews Say Not in Our Name”, “Stop Arming Israel”, similar things. In some ways — people have commented to me — that they’re hopeful, that finally, the narrative that Israel represents all Jews, and that criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic, has been broken with. I’m wondering, what can we do here to stop this genocide? and: How is this interacting with the rise of fascism here in the United States? One thing that I was also thinking about, I’d love your insight on, is: A lot of people I’ve spoken to, are focused on if we can just get people to be against Netanyahu — and some of my guests have spoken to this as well — that if we can get people to just focus on Netanyahu: that he’s more popular here than he is in his own country; he, as an individual, is a fascist; and therefore, if we could just get people, then we could get the U.S. to break with Netanyahu without breaking with Israel, and everybody could get behind that. I think that we’re going to see some of that today.

Graie Hagans  38:05

I think there’s something about both the ways in which anti-democratic movements have also absorbed other kinds of skeptic based movements, whether it is the broader pre covid anti-vax movement, an anti-science movement, and anti-evolution movement and abstinence only education movements that is kind of absorbed and made space for that kind of challenge and skepticism, or one of my favorite conspiratorial skeptic communities, the flat earth movement. There are ways in which those things have been really critical to building the populist base of authoritarianism and fascism. That’s true in the United States, and I imagine and I imagine that’s very true for many folks in the State of Israel as well. There’s something about, for so many of us just believing that the state will hold, that the mechanisms will hold, that certainly, if we can just focus in on Netanyahu or Trump or whoever it may be, if we can just get people to understand… I’ve heard folks talk about, for instance: 2020 was about Trump the man, and 2024 is about Trump the plan; that actually we need to move beyond this kind of sense and reaffirmation of the cult of personality that focuses on singular, strongman leadership, and actually is looking at the whole. Because whether or not you’re looking at the State of Israel or the United States. It’s not just a Netanyahu/Trump problem, it’s a whole set of infrastructure that has aligned, or at least aligned enough, around their vision as talking heads in some ways. That’s not to kind of disavow the particularities of those people, either, but it’s not solely about them. I think the other part is: It is very hard to reconcile, for many of us that the United States of America is an imperial power, and that we are at the seat of a global empire — that so much of what we’re most afraid of happening here, we’ve already enacted on much of the rest of the globe, and that the State of Israel, and particularly even now, this especially right wing movement that is led by Netanyahu and other folks, is in the interest of the United States of America. I think for many folks, that is both the short sightedness of antisemitism, the kind of short sightedness of believing in the American mythology that we are the leaders of democracy in the world and we’re out here trying to build safety and prosperity the world over, and having to look straight in the face that President Biden, for nearly the entirety of my lifetime and much of his political career, has clearly stated that if the State of Israel did not exist, the United States of America would need to create one for the interest and benefit of the United States of America. There’s a broader geopolitical frame that is absolutely about the politics of a region, it’s about resources, it’s about colonial models. It’s about divisions between the East and the West, it’s about a “war of civilizations” between the Christian world and the Muslim world, it’s about the clash between capitalism in the west and communism — the former Soviet Union and Russia — it’s about all of those things. For lots and lots of reasons, we kind of fall into the trap of believing that the State of Israel is solely a manifestation of a Jewish vision for self determination and safety following the Shoah, or the idea of singularly colonial Jews unleashed on the Middle East. Not that those things are also not parts of the story, but in the United States of America right now, when there are more dues paying members of Christians United for Israel than there are Jews in the United States of America, any imagination that, whatever your politics around the state of Israel and Palestinian Liberation may be, that if you are not taking into account those realities and how power moves — and the way I see so many movement folks zero in on AIPAC as a part of this story\ — not because AIPAC does not have power, and not because AIPAC is not invested in this, but because they are, by far, not the most critically invested folks in this. So I think for me, there’s something about understanding both the American imperial interests that are at play, and the way that those are only further solidified right now as we’re moving towards a white Christian nationalist vision and plan for the country. I remember Richard Spencer a few years ago — “Punch a Nazi in the face,” that guy — who was supposed to be kind of the young, handsome, question mark, intellectual face of the white nationalist right for a period of time, him — talking about the state of Israel as the dream project as like the dream ethnonationalist state, and how for him and some other folks who are following that kind of vision of being able to divide up territory and decide who gets what, the idea of creating sovereign ethnonationalist states was a great plan for them. Now we’ve moved into so much of the kind of Christian right and the Christian nationalist movement becoming center stage of the American right project, that also sees, again, as I mentioned at the top of this call, this kind of supersessionist theology that says they are the true inheritors of the covenant, and they are the true Jews of the Bible. John Hagee, the head of Christians United for Israel, firmly believes that Jews need to return and repatriate the land of Israel, so that we trigger the End Times — die in a mass set of fires and other hell and brimstone — so that Jesus[?] returns[?], and that those are Folks who are being named as allies to American Jews because of an investment and associating anti-Zionism and antisemitism — that is not to say that anti Zionist spaces and anti-Zionist politics and rhetoric absolutely can be antisemitic. So can pro Israel rhetoric, because Israel is a state, like any other state, and has a set of interests that converge with the interests of other states — and thus far has converged with the interests of the United States. If we can’t actually reconcile with America as that kind of imperial power, then I don’t think that we get very many places. That is no kind of way of Netanyahu and Trump will do the damage that Netanyahu and Trump will do, and that there are folks who are lined up to follow them once they are no longer in power. Elon Musk may have a different take, but as far as I know, no one is living forever, and so there are other folks. Elon Musk, I also think, is a hilarious cartoon villain in the worst, most painful way. I think [at] some point he’ll pull out the magic, whatever he’s found or made or discovered that gives everlasting life.

Sam Goldman  44:45

He is one disgusting and frightening individual. If you’re somebody listening who’s like: What do we do about that situation? I wanted to give you an opportunity to just talk a little bit about the actions that Bend the Arc [is] taking, or the opportunities that people can have to be part of a community that is standing for justice.

Sam Goldman  45:09

As we close out the conversation. I wanted to give you an opportunity — are there particular projects that y’all are working on that people can join in? Or another way to take it would be: We know this shit is not going to wrap up November 5th, especially if they lose. This isn’t going to be an easy process. The avenues for people to resist together, or however you want to take that.

Graie Hagans  45:09

Bend the Arc — we’re an outfit that is committed, really was formed, to be able to be an expression of the domestic political interests of American Jews, because so much of the rest of the kind of infrastructure of American Jewish political life is objectively about the state of Israel. Even across our political spectrum — primarily kind of pro Zionism, but there is some spectrum. From the perspective of Bend the Arc, I think it’s really about what the conversation has looked like in terms of the fight around antisemitism and the collective fight around safety. Right now, there’s a couple of things. One is being able to stand on a commitment to dismantling antisemitism without dismantling democracy. The right has done a lot of work for a number of years around positioning itself as the trustworthy party that has the interest of Jews at heart. They’ve done so through their narration of their support for the State of Israel, although there’s not much difference, really, between the actual political support for the State of Israel, between Republicans and Democrats. Republicans have really kind of centered that in a certain way, to again, use the equation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism, to move an anti-democratic and authoritarian agenda. You can look at at the end of April when Speaker Mike Johnson, who is a self professed Christian nationalist, stood at Columbia University and gave a press conference in which he announced that the Republican leadership of critical House committees would be leveraging the power that they had to essentially move a longer term right wing plan to, again, dismantle the Federal Department of Education, to use the immigration system to label international students as threats to national security and deport them, to do the same around professors, and to do all of that in the name of keeping Jews safe on American campuses in light of protests that were happening around the country. Those are not new right wing plans in America, but it is watching them use the opportunity — for a party that loves to talk about like how to not politicize tragedies, they sure have a very clear playbook of doing exactly that. Some of it is also recognizing, in terms of whether we’re talking about Project 2025 or Agenda 47 or any of the other policy implementation plans, is that a fair amount of that is already moving right in front of us, and is being done in the cover of keeping folks safe. Particularly while American Jewish folks continue to wrestle with what safety actually means right now, as folks are continuing to experience an uptick in anti semitism, or experiencing the narration of an uptick in antisemitism, [coughs to feign secrecy] ADL [Anti-Defamation League], I think you know that there is particularly, again, this kind of invitation for folks to join into the broader movement of folks who are demanding an increase in carceral and militarized solutions to issues of safety. I think there is something about, around focusing on, how do we actually counter antisemitism, encounter Islamophobia and counter transphobia, and counter xenophobia, and counter all these things right now? Part of it is understanding that these things are actually interlocking sets of oppression, that they are actually parts of the machinery of division and fear, and that tackling one of them actually precipitates, like, tackling multiple of them — and doing so in solidarity. The second part is recognizing — James Baldwin would call it — “the bribe” that is being extended to so many folks to join the broader project of cis, hetero, patriarchal, Christian, white nationalist, etc., etc, recognizing what those look like for our communities, and doing the work both inside of our communities, and again, reaching across other communities as well. There’s something about remembering that all of this is more than just the presidential election. There’s something about American democracy that we end up every four years so squarely focused on the singular kind of authority. But, recognizing, while arguably the Supreme Court is lost for a period of time, there still is Congress. I have some real questions about Congress, and why they didn’t swing back when Donald Trump sent those people in to [raises tone] kill y’all at work, which is heinous and wild. I cannot imagine if my colleagues and coworkers [raises tone] sent people to the office to take me out while I’m at my desk at work, and not swinging back? — but that’s a whole other situation. Remembering again that all of this is happening at multiple levels. It’s a federal attempt, but it is certainly happening at the state and local levels as well. You can look at the right’s focus on anti-DEI measures, rights focus on policing trans kids and families, access around life-affirming, and life-saving treatment and healthcare, whether it’s looking at the right’s attack on access to reproductive health and abortion, or the right’s focus on critical race theory and curriculums and taking over school boards and things like that. Still, also these are local fights, and so much of the protection that we need is going to come from actually doing the hard work of on the ground small ‘d’ democracy around reaffirming and re-seeing ourselves as mutually a part of the same project, and not just kind of finding ourselves siloed behind whatever walls we are able to build to claim whatever safety we feel like we actually can latch on to to make it through another day. This is not a game of waiting out an authoritarian agenda. Very classically, first they came for trans kids, certainly, at some point they will also come to your door.

Graie Hagans  51:00

I would say, like standing on one foot. Three things: One, again, is to reaffirm, find, and invest in a political home locally. We are a national organization that has field chapters and locations across the country. That is a model that is common amongst lots of national organizations and local organizations as well. Connecting and figuring out what is the fight around Project 2025, at the local and state level? and how do you invest in that defense as well? Secondly, I think, specifically from Bend the Arc, we have a cut of work, particularly around some messaging intervention, and is really about kind of right setting, again, the way that we talk about antisemitism in relationship to other frameworks, infrastructures of oppression, particularly geared towards: How do we talk about antisemitism like we believe we can end it together? Folks can check out that work at DismantlingAntisemitism.org — there’s lots of trainings, there’s a guide, there’s lots of other materials on there — would love to connect with folks about that. Third is continuing to reaffirm and develop a politic that actually says that it is about us collectively, and resisting the urge to kind of fall back into whatever we believe is kind of our singularly most safe identity space. Again, continuing to invest in the kind of work that is about the democracy we are trying to build, and, again, reminding ourselves, as you just said, that there’s the between now and Election Day, there’s between Election Day and Inauguration Day, and then there’s Inauguration Day, moving forward. Figuring out what we all need to do to shore ourselves up, to continue to reach for each other, and to continue to be able to access whatever is the resiliency boost that we’re going to need. I think this is going to be a long fight. But for me, coming from the tradition that says we wandered in the desert for 40 years, not without purpose — that it was a wandering that was actually about getting us prepared to move beyond the narrowness of the world that had a hierarchy that said that there was value of people above others, and that some of us deserve to be at the bottom and to hold the backbreaking labor of keeping it all together — that there actually is a better place for us to be going in a world to be building. We just have to figure out how to do that hard work of not letting each other go and moving in that direction.

Sam Goldman  53:04

Graie, I want to thank you so much for coming on, for sharing with us your insight, your expertise, your perspective, and, of course, your time. If people want to connect more with you, more with Bend the Arc, where should they go?

Graie Hagans  53:17

People should definitely check us out online — JewishAction.us — or you can check us out as well on our social medias: Instagram, Twitter and Facebook as well — it’s BendTheArcJewishAction on all socials. 

Sam Goldman  53:29

Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. Want to help this show reach more people when it’s needed most? Awesome. As people rightly agonize over the fascist threat, help grow the community we need by literally wearing Refuse Fascism across your chest by purchasing one or more of our Refuse Fascism t-shirts. When you buy a shirt, you’re also helping produce and promote this show. See the show notes to get your shirt today. When it arrives, I hope you’ll take a selfie or pic of your whole crew all wearing your shirts and post on social and tag Refuse Fascism to spread the word. If you want to take a step further, become a patron for as little as $2 a month at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism. It all makes a difference in producing and promoting this independent, all volunteer weekly podcast. Thanks for your support. If you can’t give now, or if you did already share this show with others, rate and review another podcast or wherever you listen, or comment on social media or YouTube, it makes a difference, and is so appreciated. Got thoughts or questions off this episode? We want to hear them. Ideas for topics or guests? Yes, please. Send them to us. Have a skill you think can help? We want to know all about it. Reach us on the socials, @RefuseFascism, at just about all the places, and on the YouTubes, you can reply with a comment. Find us. at Refuse_Fascism, and be sure to hit that subscribe button if YouTube is your thing. Leave us a voicemail — see the show notes for the button — or if you want to reach me, you can do so at Twitter, @SamBGoldman, or drop me a line at SamanthaGoldman,@RefuseFascism.org, or find me on the tiktoks at SamGoldmanRF. Thanks to Mark Tinkleman, Richie Marini, and Lina Thorne for helping produce this episode, and thanks to incredible volunteers, we have transcripts available for each show. So be sure to visit RefuseFascism.org and sign up to get them in your inbox. As a reminder, we’re going to be taking off the next two Sundays, and we’ll be back with a new episode. Sunday, August 18. Until then, In the Name of Humanity, We Refuse to Accept a Fascist America!

Sam Goldman  53:29

Thank you.