Episode 260
Sam recaps the latest ways that fascism is ratcheting forward including Trump’s latest threats to sic the military on other cities besides LA and DC. Then she speaks to Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi, author of Trump’s Washington DC takeover is straight out of a fascist playbook (The Guardian). Follow his work at moustafabayoumi.com.
What do we need to do between now and November 5? Join the national organizing webinar this Thursday:
Recommended Reading:
- Step The Fuck Up or It’s Over by Fredrick Joseph
- Another way out: Hiding and obedience won’t stop fascism by William C. Anderson
- Jack White on Instagram
Continue to take part in protests near you and connect with the movement at RefuseFascism.org. Text NOTRUMP to 855-755-1314, follow @RefuseFascism on social media (@RefuseFashizm on TikTok) and our YouTube channel: @Refuse_Fascism. Support:
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Music for this episode: Penny the Snitch by Ikebe Shakedown
Episode 260 Trump’s DC Takeover…Right Out of the Fascist Playbook
Mon, Aug 25, 2025 11:32AM • 46:24
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 00:00
What we’re really seeing is an attempt by Trump to essentially take over all of the different kind of law enforcement capabilities of the state and put them into his own hands. Part of the repertoire of someone like Donald Trump is a reliance on the rhetoric of law and order. There’s definitely a kind of coded, if not explicit, racialization within the rhetoric of law and order that requires an overwhelming reliance on force, on militarization, on demonization, and all of these things end up threatening the way that people can actually live freely in their lives, and they have to actually sacrifice their own freedoms for some sort of greater image of law and order. The danger, I think, that we’re seeing here is far beyond the danger of the military on our streets. The danger is that we will lose the ability to organize ourselves politically.
Sam Goldman 01:14
Welcome to episode 260 of the Refuse Fascism Podcast, a podcast brought to you by volunteers with Refuse Fascism. This is Sam Goldman, one of those volunteers and host of the show. Refuse Fascism works to unite all who can be united to join in mass nonviolent protest and resistance in the streets and throughout society, growing to include millions, and refusing to stop until we create such a profound political crisis that Trump cannot impose his fascist program or even maintain his hold on power. Much thanks to our patrons, everyone who rates, reviews, shares the show and reps our merch. Every bit helps connect more people with Refuse Fascism.
So after today’s episode, please go bring this show to others, share it, review it, rate it, get a shirt, get some stickers if you haven’t already. Thanks in advance for your support. Today, we’re sharing an interview with Moustafa Bayoumi to discuss Trump’s fascist takeover of D.C., straight out of the fascist playbook; eliminate local control, centralize force, unleash repression and normalize terror. But first, here are just some of the ways the Trump regime has accelerated fascism this week, and we know it is not comprehensive.
They announced mobilization of up to 1,700 National Guardsmen in 19 states, are subjecting all 55 million U.S. visa holders to what it calls “continuous immigration vetting,” aka police state surveillance. They’ve escalated retribution against their political enemies, including raiding John Bolton’s house and office. They’ve threatened exhibitions at the Smithsonian Institutions for saying the basic fact slavery was bad, and are implementing a review process to rewrite history. This regime is sending students back to school amid a mix of censorship, repression, forced religion and distorted history.
First days back to school should be marked by excitement and jitters, but are being marked by terror, as immigrant parents are afraid to drop off or pick up their children, and children are horrified their parents will be kidnapped by ICE while they’re at school. Trump’s Education Department has revoked an Obama era rule requiring schools to support English learners, jeopardizing resources for about 5 million students. And as we’re recording at about 12:30 p.m. on Sunday, it appears that the recently released Kilmar Abrego Garcia will likely be deported tomorrow to Uganda, a nation he has no connection to. Fascism is not a looming threat. It’s here. It’s now. It cannot be lived with. It must be defeated. The whole Trump fascist regime must be driven from power. So what do we do? Listen up to Sunsara Taylor, a leader of Refuse Fascism, and a host of the RNL, Revolution Nothing Less Show, speaking about our plans for November 5.
The time has come for the fall of the Trump fascist regime. Here’s the plan: November 5, the anniversary of Trump’s re-election, we descend on Washington, D.C., millions and millions strong, in the biggest nonviolent, but determined, massive mobilization in U.S. history. We surround the White House, surround the Capitol, surround the illegitimate fascist-packed Supreme Court. We demand: The Trump Fascist Regime Must Go Now! and we do not stop until this regime has been nonviolently driven from power.
This really is humanity’s only hope. We are not facing the looming threat of fascism, it is upon us now. It is masked men disappearing our neighbors. It’s the military occupation of our cities. It’s Donald Trump sending his thugs to assault and threaten Democratic mayors and senators and governors and even a former President, all paving the way for even greater atrocities against the masses of people. It’s a Supreme Court that’s gone rogue, routinely ignoring and violating the Constitution. It’s women dying for lack of abortion. It’s the erasure of trans people. It’s the aggressive resurrection of open white supremacy, reversing the gains, not only of the 1960s but even of the Civil War and Reconstruction.
It’s the assault on science and the very existence of a livable planet. It is an attack on everything that is decent, moral and good, all at the whim of a fascist deranged lunatic. There is no living with this. There is no waiting it out. It’s not going to go away on its own. It’s only going to get worse and worse, unless it is defeated, which means driving this fascist regime from power. And don’t delude yourself into thinking you can wait for the next elections. It’s way too late, and Trump is already stealing the next elections, now! This one’s on us. We’ve got to rise up. We’ve got to organize our neighbors, our friends, our co workers, our peers.
It has to start now. There is not a second to waste. This is an all hands on deck emergency. And don’t tell yourself it can’t be done. History is filled with examples where people had right on their side and they fought against tremendous odds and were victorious. It is also filled with examples where people sat back and passively hoped to wait it out, only to be swallowed by a nightmare beyond what they ever imagined. The future is unwritten. Which one we get is up to us.
Join Sunsara and myself this Thursday, August 28, at 8:00 p.m. Eastern for an organizing webinar. Join Refuse Fascism, hear the plan to flood D.C. in non violent protest, starting November 5, not stopping until the regime is removed from power. Learn how you can be a part of making this a major question: Are you going to D.C. to drive out Trump? You need to be in the room with us on Thursday to get involved to make November 5 what it needs to be. Whether you think these plans sound crazy and impossible or necessary and imminently possible, everyone who fears for the future and does not want a fascist America — all of the decent, justice loving people need to be part of this organizing webinar. That’s you. That’s happening. So register for this Thursday at 8:00 p.m. The webinar registration link is in the show notes. See you then!
In the run up to the 2020 election, Trump was already floating the idea of staying in office beyond two terms. He made clear months before voting opened that he would not respect an election he didn’t win. For months, he was working on two tracks: how to win a popular mandate on one hand, and how to undermine or even overturn a loss on the other. These efforts, of course, culminated in the January 6 coup. Fast forward to now. It hasn’t even been a year since the last presidential election, and already Trump has his [sights] set on 2028. Some have dismissed the possibility.
After all, according to the 22nd amendment, he can’t run again. But he isn’t campaigning to win the 2028 election. Nor is he grooming a successor. He is campaigning to circumvent the 2028 election. At CPAC back in March, barely two months into his second term, Trump 2028 merch was being distributed, and loyalists were talking up ways to keep him in. This week, we’re seeing more of the strategy from Trump himself. Sitting in the Oval Office surrounded by foreign heads of state, he raised the idea of canceling the 2028 election if the U.S. were at war, saying: “If we happen to be at war with somebody, no more elections, that’s good.”
And he is openly meddling in the 2026 midterms, both as a rehearsal for his intentions in 2028 and in order to consolidate his base of power in Congress. In 2020, his efforts were stymied in large part by state elections officials, whom the constitution grants authority to conduct elections. In the 2024 elections, we saw Trump loyalist election officials openly attempt to undermine the election. In an unhinged rant on Truth Social (I mean, aren’t they all unhinged rants? but anyway), Trump said he plans to sign an executive order to ban mail in voting and, “highly inaccurate voting machines,” a move that would violate the Constitution in an effort to, in his words, “help bring HONESTY to the 2026 midterm elections.”
Trump falsely claimed that the U.S. is the only country in the world that has mail in voting, and called states, which hold authority over elections, “merely an agent for the federal government in counting and tabulating the votes.” This “merely an agent” line is a direct attack on the election clause plainly stated in the U.S. Constitution that states control the “time, place and manner of congressional elections.” The Constitution further declares that the federal body with power to set election standards, which the states must follow is, in fact, Congress, not the President. To these same ends.
A few weeks ago, Trump directly demanded that red state governments take gerrymandering to a whole new level to stack the House of Representatives with his loyalists. In response, Texas redrew their districting map in order to potentially turn five seats from Democrat to Republican. This new map has now passed the state Senate and is on its way to Governor Abbott’s desk. In order to prevent this from going through, Democratic state representatives fled the state as maneuver to deny the Republicans a quorum, preventing any new legislation from passing.
Trump and the Texas Republicans retaliated, sending the FBI to search for them, and after the return, mandating their consent to 24 hour surveillance. One rep, Nicole Collier, refused to consent to this condition and was forced to spend days leading up to the vote locked in the chamber of the State Capitol building. After two weeks, they came back only with the beginning of efforts in Democratic governed states, most notably California, to redraw their own districts as a counterweight. The midterm elections are more than a year away, the next presidential election more than three, but the fascists are not losing any time in laying the groundwork for their perpetual, unchallenged fascist rule.
The fascist-stacked Supreme Court, for its part, has signaled clearly for all to see that they will not stand in the way. As the call for November 5, initiated by RefuseFascism.org states, we cannot wait for future and rigged elections. We must drive the Trump fascist regime from power. With each passing day that they are allowed to hold on to power, it will become harder to oust them or even express dissent. This is why now is the time for the fall of the fascist Trump regime.
We had to share some inspiration with you. Inspiration from people refusing to comply with fascism, bravely engaging in resistance — the kind of action that needs to spread like wildfire, joined with the demand that Trump Must Go Now!, all building momentum to flood D.C. on November 5 and not stop until we drive the Trump regime from power. This past week in the Columbia Heights section of Washington, D.C., neighbors stood shoulder to shoulder and forced ICE and federal agents to retreat from their community, turning chants of “ICE Go Home!” into a powerful act of defiance.
This is exactly the spirit we need as part of the movement to drive Trump’s fascist regime from power. Cheers as well to those who disrupted J.D. Vance and Stephen Miller’s Union Station appearance. May they not have a moment of peace. Earlier this summer, the Justice Department asked nearly two dozen hospitals around the country to provide extensive personal information about minors who have received gender affirming care. As Jennifer L. Levi, the Senior Director of Transgender and Queer Rights at GLAD Law, stated, “It’s specifically and strategically designed to intimidate health care providers and health care institutions into abandoning their patients.”
A subpoena sent to the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, which was made public this past Monday as part of a legal filing attempting to block the investigations, showed that it requested the names, birth dates, social security numbers, addresses and parent guardian information of all patients who were prescribed puberty blockers or hormone therapy. We just want to give a cheers to CHOP for fighting this in the court and not complying with this fascist edict. Much more defiance and mass non-compliance is needed.
White House Communications Director Steven Cheung labeled musician Jack White a “washed up has-been loser” after Jack White criticized the Oval Office remodel on his Instagram. White responded with a scathing multi page statement on Instagram in which he calls Trump out for “his blatant fascist manipulation of government,” his “Gestapo ICE tactics” and “masquerading as a human.” We’re linking his Instagram post in the show notes, because you got to read the whole thing, but I want to share part of his caption. “I was raised to believe that we defeated fascism in World War II and that we would never allow it again in the world. I don’t always state publicly my political opinions, and like anyone, I don’t always know all the facts, but when it comes to this man and this administration, I’m not going to be like one of the silent minority of 1930’s Germany. This man is a danger to, not just America, but the entire world. And that’s not an exaggeration. He’s dismantling democracy and endangering the planet on a daily basis, and we all know it.”
Lastly, before the interview, I wanted to share two really powerful essays that I think are must reads this week. The first one that I wanted to share was Step the Fuck Up, Or it’s Over: Silence, Fascism and the History Unfolding by Frederick T. Joseph. It’s up on his In Retrospect Substack. It’s linked to in the show notes. Here’s a highlight: “I am speaking now to you, whoever you are, reading this, on a phone, a laptop, a flickering screen in the middle of your morning. Maybe you are tired, maybe you are afraid, maybe you feel small in the face of everything collapsing. But I need you to know this: History has always been written by the tired, the afraid, the small, who choose to speak anyway.”
The second essay is Another Way Out: Hiding and Obedience Won’t Stop Fascism, by William C. Henderson, also linked to in the show notes. Here’s a highlight: “I’ve got news for you. Being outside and rebelling are not required to provoke the backlash of fascism. Your black skin provokes them. Your citizenship status can provoke them. Your ethnicity can provoke them. Your gender can provoke them. Your poverty can, your sexuality can, your age can, your existence and your life can provoke them.” And just as a note, I’m advocating in line with with Refuse Fascism, what they call for, and have always advocated: a nonviolent, relentless opposition, a mass civil uprising, beginning November 5 in D.C., spreading through all of society and not stopping until the regime is removed. That is the means necessary. That is the means needed. Now, here is my conversation with Moustafa Bayoumi.
Today, I am so happy to welcome on Moustafa Bayoumi, whose Guardian editorial, Trump’s Washington D.C. Takeover Is Straight Out of A Fascist Playbook, that was published August 13, rings more urgent than ever. Bayoumi lays bare the fascist mechanics behind the administration’s federalization of D.C. police, dissecting the parallels between federalizing D.C. police and authoritarian tactics, illustrating how manufactured fear, mobilizing passion and the assault on truth serve as tools to consolidate fascist power. Moustafa is a Professor of English at Brooklyn College and the author of award winning books, How does it Feel to be a Problem? Being Young and Arab in America, and This Muslim American Life, Dispatches from the War on Terror. Welcome Moustafa. Thanks for joining us.
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 16:55
Thank you, Sam. It’s great to be here.
Sam Goldman 16:57
As I said when I was welcoming you, it’s ringing more true, even now, a week after. Since you’ve written the piece, you probably know more than I, but I just saw that Hegseth has signed off on the National Guard being armed as they patrol the streets of D.C., that Trump has threatened a total takeover of D.C., and that he’s willing to bring in the “regular military” to the nation’s capital if needed. He signaled sending the military to Democratic cities, pointing to Chicago in particular, saying, “Chicago is a mess. You have an incompetent mayor, grossly incompetent. And we’ll straighten that one out, probably next that’ll be our next one after this, and it won’t even be tough.” So I just wanted to get your thoughts on this, and how is what we’re seeing really straight out of the fascist playbook.
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 17:48
I think that what we’re really seeing is an attempt by Trump to essentially take over all of the different kind of law enforcement capabilities of the state and put them into his own hands. We’ve seen that with the so called one Big, Beautiful Bill, which actually gives ice now the budget that’s larger than most militaries in the world. It’s gonna be the largest law enforcement agency in the country by far. It’s a federal agency, so we have the huge amount of power and control in the hands of one man and the federal government, namely Donald Trump, and then following down from his minions. It’s really an attempt, then, to actually kind of take away the decentralized notion of the rule of law in this country, which is at the municipal level, which is at the state level, which is at the federal level, and then consolidate them all within the hands of Donald Trump. That, to me, is a very frightening prospect that seems straight out of not just authoritarian, not just totalitarian, but really fascist playbooks.
Sam Goldman 18:50
For people who are still relying on what I call euphemism — you know, totalitarian, authoritarian — why do we need to be clear on this being fascism, and how do you make that case to people? Because I think that it still persists, maybe even especially amongst those most educated and should know better.
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 19:12
There are certainly shared elements between, say, authoritarianism, totalitarianism and fascism, and I think it’s important to think about those shared elements too. But if you read a lot of the literature around fascism, what it often will talk about is that Fascism is, in fact, less of an ideology and more a kind of form of political behavior. It actually calls for a kind of sense of mobilization and belonging by the masses as well. In a way though totalitarianism and authoritarianism can actually just sort of overrule the masses. Within fascism, you have the participation of significant portions of the public who are buying into the fascist rhetoric and style.
The other thing that often they talk about in the literature around Fascism is that Fascism is less of an ideology and more of a political behavior. That’s, in fact, how Robert Paxton puts it, that it’s a political behavior. If you read someone like Umberto Eco, I have a quote here from Umberto Eco, He says that “fascism was a kind of fuzzy form of totalitarianism.” He says it was “not a monolithic ideology, but rather a collage of diverse political and philosophical ideas, a tangle of contradictions.” You can actually see that tangle of contradictions, I think, within the Trump administration as well. Every day we see different kinds of contradictions, and that’s why Trump seems to be, in fact, contradicting himself over and over again. What is the greatest threat to the United States? Is it coming from abroad? Is it coming from within? Even within the Trump administration, we have all different kinds of contradictions.
Sam Goldman 20:43
One of the things that I think about — we shouldn’t look at things in isolation, obviously. But even if you only looked at what’s unfolding in D.C. — I feel like you see so many of these elements at play. You talked about the mobilizing of passions, or how I put it on the show regularly, is like, fomenting and relying upon the worst America first chauvinism, the worst American misogyny, the worst of American white supremacy. In doing so, it’s to consolidate power, and I think that we see that with the targeting of the youth in D.C., the targeting of Black youth in D.C., the targeting of the homeless, the targeting of immigrant neighborhoods.
I was wondering how they’ve kind of turned people’s attention to crime, and having this be a conversation about crime when that has nothing to do with what they’re actually aiming to do? Terrorizing the youth, has nothing to do with crime rates. Going in and terrorizing the people of Columbia Heights who are just going about their lives has nothing to do with crime rates. Bulldozing homeless encampments — they’re not criminal — they’re not the same. And yet, so many good people are continuing to have a conversation about crime and make it a conversation about crime. How does that work? How are they able to do that and set that tone that way?
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 22:03
Part of the repertoire of someone like Donald Trump, and his ilk, is a reliance on the rhetoric of law and order. There is definitely a kind of coded, if not explicit, racialization within the rhetoric of law and order. We see that within not just Trump going after Washington, D.C., which his followers will already know, has a very high African American population, but also going after cities like Chicago and Oakland and the other cities that also have high African American populations. So that relationship between crime and being African American is consolidated within The Trumpian rhetoric.
What we have to basically understand too, as we were just talking about, fascism should be understood as a rhetorical strategy, more than even an ideological one. So the rhetorical strategy is a way of actually shoring up a belief within the different people who are supporting of Trump in opposition to the different elements that make up our society. So here it’s African Americans. Otherwise it’s immigrants. Otherwise it’s pro Palestinian supporters. There’s always the sense of a threat that’s coming from outside, outside the shores of the United States, or outside [of] one’s home, and that requires an overwhelming reliance on force, on militarization, on demonization. All of these things actually end up threatening the way that people can actually live freely in their lives, and they have to actually sacrifice their own freedoms for some sort of greater image of law and order. That goes right back to Mussolini kind of fascism as well.
So we’re seeing here, not just a reliance on the rhetoric of law and order, but even a reliance on the rhetoric of law and order at the expense of the truth. Because actually, if you look at it, the crime rates across the country are actually falling precipitously. They did edge up during the COVID era, but since then, they’ve actually fallen quite significantly, especially in those cities that Trump is calling out as being crime ridden cities. So it’s actually just entirely not true. So, at the same time that there’s a desire to support this idea of law and order, because it enables the notion of sacrifice and militarization to the society at the same time, there’s actually also an attack on the very notion of what truth is.
I really think that what’s going on here is less that we should be arguing over whether Trump’s lies are lies of degree. Is he mostly true, or is he not true? We have to understand that what he’s really trying to do is actually evacuate the whole notion of truth itself. That’s another reason why Trump constantly contradicts himself from one day to the next and then just appears like he didn’t even say something the day before. This notion of contradiction is not something that’s just a Trumpian twitch. It’s actually deeply embedded in this notion that Trump is the one who can determine what is truthful on any given day, and we all have to give up the idea of political truth as a way of organizing our own lives.
The danger that we’re seeing here is far beyond the danger of even just the military on our streets, which is already an extreme danger, but in fact, the danger is that we will lose the ability to organize ourselves politically, because we need the notion of truth as a way of being able to communicate with each other. If we relegate the notion of truth to the past and give it up to Donald Trump, then we are really in trouble.
Sam Goldman 25:32
I feel like we’re already so far along that path of the degradation of the truth as something that can be known, that we can see and find. I’m wondering, are you surprised by how this has been normalized, or was this kind of what you expected to some degree? This is not me justifying it. There’s a through line between the apparatus that was built through the war on terror to military on the streets in the United States, but to me, it’s still surprising that people are just like going to work, drinking their coffee. Everything’s still normal, even while it’s completely not normal, not within the realm of usual functioning. I just wanted to get your thoughts on that, as somebody who’s been thinking and writing about these things, are you surprised by the normalization?
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 26:24
I’m not surprised by how normal people are taking their daily lives by any stretch. But I think the idea that people are living normal lives under this particular regime that we’re living through is true only for some people. For others, things are definitely not normal. For a lot of people who are living in mixed families of different immigration status, things are definitely not normal. I know, also within my cohort of people who are involved in affairs over in the in the Arab region, things are also definitely not normal.
Ever since they started arresting dissidents such as Mahmoud Khalil and others that… We’re very concerned about how we even walk around on the streets. Should we keep keeping tabs on each other? or: Should we always move in groups instead of just individually? For some people, yes, life is very normal. For others, life is definitely not at all normal. I think that we’re going to see one group, the group that thinks that they can continue to live their lives without paying any kind of price to what’s going on, that group, I think, will shrink as the time goes on.
I think what we’re gonna see too is a great amount of extreme theft by this government of wealth that belongs to the people, and we’ve already seen that. That’s gonna lead to great economic distress within the country. I think it’s not unfeasible to think that we’re gonna be heading towards a recession, or worse, when the tariffs kick in, and when the various economic policies that seem very short sighted and seem very much geared towards the transfer of wealth towards an elite class in this country. That’s when, out of the fascist playbook, what’s going to happen is that all of that blame will then just get re articulated downwards again, and it’s going to be put on the immigrants, put on the different marginal groups in society.
That kind of resentment, I think, is something that has a great amount of currency, unfortunately, in American society. The birth of this fascist movement that we’re seeing here today, it didn’t come out of nowhere. Part of it did come out of the War on Terror… for sure, part of it. We see the ways in which the War on Terror has its own kind of blowback and its own return to the country. We see that a lot of different, various militia and right wing groups have their own histories with being engaged with the U.S. military. We see the relationship between, say, the U.S. military and drug trafficking. Actually there’s a brand new book out on that subject, which is a very excellent book.
At the same time, we also, in the last several years, last decade or more really, we’ve seen an enormous rift begin in this country, economically. The level of income inequality in this country is unsustainable. That builds all kinds of resentments and losses of opportunity, and that is a place for [a] fascist speaking rhetorician to walk in and say: I can deal with you all of your resentments; I can solve them for you; Your resentments are not based on the fact that capitalism is taking all your money and that we’re in charge of capitalism, your resentments are the fact that it’s the immigrant who’s doing that; It’s the fact that we have a border that is doing that; It’s the fact that these other people.
The first appeal of fascism is always a call against intruders. It’s a defensive way to take charge of not just the political power, but also the economic power of the society. We’ve been watching this consolidation go on for generations in this country, and now we’ve reached a point where it is actually threatening the very political fabric.
Sam Goldman 29:52
That’s a really essential point. We’ve gone from: It’s looming, the cloud getting closer and closer, to: It hovering and being here. Then there’s the question of, what will the people rise to do? Or, conversely, what will the people accept?
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 30:05
One of the things that is shocking to me is that it really does appear that Donald Trump has been able to actually create a kind of multiracial white supremacist organization. That’s surprising. It’s also interesting to think about, when we think about the prototypical kind of fascist in our mind, we might think of sort of, say, INCEL culture, because there’s something about the loneliness and the atomization and the extreme failures that could then produce an appealing version of fascism to such and such a person. But it’s also really true that there are a lot of women who are involved in the movement. It’s not just men. So where do the women and the people of color find meaning in this sort of very white supremacist, white nationalist oriented ideology or set of behaviors? Those are the kinds of questions that we actually should be asking.
Sam Goldman 30:57
So important. I wanted to return to what you were saying about lies and about truth, because I think that it’s one of these really key sticking points that is so evident when we look at this one particular issue. But it’s not just this particular development. You could look at so many more things, whether it be the Epstein files or anything else. You argue that Trump doesn’t care if we believe his lies, only that we stop believing in the truth. I was wondering if you could walk us through that distinction, and what its implications are for a society that purports any semblance of democracy.
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 31:35
I think that the idea that there is something that’s true and something that’s false is necessary to lead, essentially, an ethical life. We need to know what is true and what is not true in order to make decisions, in order to make the right decisions about how we’re going to live our lives, individually and collectively, for the common good. We have to agree then on what we think is true and what we think is then not true. That’s a collective decision. That’s a decision also that is one that is full of contestation and argument. That’s where democracy lies. Democracy is exactly in that space where we can argue over whether this is true or this is not true, whether this is important or not important, whether this is ethical or unethical. Those kinds of decisions are what makes our society run.
But if Trump, on the other hand, keeps telling us contradictory things and keeps telling us lies and making us accept those lies as the truth, we’re evacuating the very idea of truth, and we’re handing it over to him, if we agree with Trump’s posture. That’s why, more than ever, it’s actually much more important to say, not that what Trump is saying is partly true and partly false — this is what you often see of the pundit class, on television, they’ll talk about: Well, you know, what he said is sort of true, but it’s not entirely wrong; and, like, but this and about that.
After the military was deployed to the streets of Washington D.C., you had very clear statistics based on crime rates in D.C. going down, and then you had all the pundits on TV saying: Well, that may be true, but I don’t feel like it’s a safe city. So in that point, we’re succumbing to Donald Trump’s version of the truth, which is that he gets to determine what is the truth, and we have to all abide by that instead. By doing so, we’re actually giving up the very notion of being able to contest and argue over what our democracy itself is.
Sam Goldman 33:26
Thanks for that. We’re on the campuses. We’re either preparing to go back, or we already are back. What are your thoughts on what it means to be returning to academia at this time, where we see university after university, capitulating to Trump’s fascist edicts? What would it take, or what do you think we can do to foster institutions to stand up to this? In particular, universities.
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 33:53
I think this is an excellent point, and it’s actually precisely going back to the notion of: Are we really willing to argue for believing in the truth, or are we just going to accept the lies that are coming from the administration as being our new truths? Basically, the fascist playbook depends also on a public that is not equipped to think critically. That’s why the idea of believing and deciding what is actually true and not true is important. It’s about honing one’s own critical abilities. What the Trump administration and various right-wing organizations have had in their sights for a long time is the very university system in this country, because that is precisely where critical thinking should be, and is, taught.
They want to destroy the university system. — they’ve wanted to for a long time — and then replace it with something that actually just serves their own interests, both materially and intellectually, with what we would call a facsimile of what a university actually should be. There’s this idea that universities are hotbeds of radicalism and only produce communists coming out of their graduation ceremonies. It’s a joke. It’s unbelievably false. If that were the case, then why do we even have a Republican Party? Because the number of people who are educated in this country is quite large, and they’re all coming out of universities, and many of them still will vote Republican upon leaving the universities.
There’s always been this vilification and this notion of trying to destroy higher education in this country by the right-wing, and we’re seeing it now come to fruition through all kinds of spurious arguments and false attacks that are essentially also attacks on the notion of truth itself; namely, that universities have also become hotbeds of antisemitism. There have been certain examples and cases of individual moments of antisemitism. Those should, of course… we should abhor those, but the idea that dissent is somehow inherently antisemitic, the idea that protest is inherently antisemitic — protest against Israel’s actions is inherently anti semitic — all of those are formulated in order to actually make us not believe in our critical abilities and not believe in the truth that we see in front of our eyes.
Really, what’s dangerous at the university level, though, is that rift that we’re seeing between the administration and the faculty and the students. The administration, by and large, and some faculty are going along with the administration, but by and large, administrations are showing themselves to be very weak, very powerless, very pusillanimous, very cowardly, only trying to survive by the skin of their teeth. In fact, what we really need is a kind of organized collective resistance on the part of university administrators across the country to say that we will not abide by this kind of fear-mongering and outright lying that you’re making about universities.
We are the heart and soul of research and development and education and thought production in this country. Not just the economy, but our own culture, is dependent on the university system, and by attacking the university system, you’re actually attacking the very nature of American society. I think those are the kinds of arguments that we need to hear from the leadership that we’re seeing across the country. Are we hearing that from any of the leadership? No, we’re not. That is yet another example of how quickly our institutions, which we thought were going to protect us, are crumbling like sand castles on the beach during high tide.
Sam Goldman 37:34
Absolutely. There’s this domino effect of capitulation at the universities, and I think that amongst students, staff, communities, alumni, we have to start demanding reversal, where there’s been capitulation. If they don’t, I think that we need to start demanding that they’re removed as administrators of the university. We can’t allow a situation where fascists are the only ones who drive out college presidents. I think that that’s preposterous, that we just allow that.
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 38:02
Yeah, I agree. I think it’s also true that what we’re seeing is that the people who are running universities have very little knowledge about what a university itself is. They’re mostly the managerial class. They’re mostly trustees who are part of the capitalist elite, or they’re lawyers or what have you. They don’t understand what the nature of an educational institution itself is. Again, this is a huge part of the problem, and this is a problem that’s been years in the making and has also come to fruition at this very moment.
It’s very important that we historicize our moments, that we don’t exceptionalize Donald Trump and see that Trump is the only reason why we’ve now come to this grave time in the country, where so much of our collective existence is a threat. In fact, we’ve been leading in this direction for many, many years. I remember many, many years ago, when I was a teenager — I grew up in Canada reading Kurt Vonnegut books. I remember as a teenager reading Kurt Vonnegut saying: Well, what do you expect from a country that believes that its president is also its commander in chief. There’s a way in which the very nature of American society consolidates wealth, consolidates power, is built on history and legacy of racial formation and exclusion, is built on imperial plunder — all of these things — is built on the genocide of the indigenous population.
All of that will eventually, and has eventually led in certain directions at different moments in our history. Donald Trump is occupying that position right now. I think it’s very important that we don’t see him as being larger than he is. He is, in some senses, a consequence of our own American history. There’s some strength in being able to see that, because if that is the case, then we can also produce alternate histories and alternate formations. We don’t have to just accept that Trump is the figure that he believes himself to be.
Sam Goldman 39:54
I want to thank you, Moustafa, so much for coming on and sharing your insights, your perspective, expertise, and of course, your time. I wanted to ask if there was any place that you wanted to direct people to go, who wanted to see more of your work or learn more. You’re featured regularly in The Guardian. I don’t know if you want me to link to that page, or if there’s your website that you want to link to. Where should people go?
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 40:16
I suppose my website is probably the best place to go. That’s www.MoustafaBayoumi.com.
Sam Goldman 40:22
Thank you so much.
Dr. Moustafa Bayoumi 40:23
Anytime. Thank you, Sam.
Sam Goldman 40:30
Before we close today’s episode, we’re sharing voices from the August 16th, No Fascist Takeover of D.C., Trump Must Go Now! protest organized by Refuse Fascism, including Lucha Bright, Tony G, Carl Dix, Ralph, Jolly Good Ginger, Reverend Hagler and myself.
Lucha 40:46
You can’t just refuse to accept fascism in your head. You can’t just do it in your own neighborhood, but you gotta do it in your own neighborhood. You can’t just do it when it’s you talking to your friends. When the fascists come in with troops, and they come in with federal agents, and they come in setting up checkpoints after they’ve already been rounding people up and putting them in detention camps, you refuse fascism by coming into the streets in your numbers together [cheers building] as a force determined to drive the regime out. [large cheer]
Tony G 41:23
Every day is a wound to our community. Every day is a call to action for all of us.
Lucha 41:31
I think that for a lot of us who are not accustomed to political turmoil, we look at political activists and we we think of them as something that you just intrinsically are, but a political activist, a protester, is something that you choose to be.
Carl Dix 41:49
This system has always had, at least for my lifetime, and I’ve been around for a while, an approach to Black people of pinning them in locking them up and even killing them off. What Trump is saying is: I’m gonna accelerate and intensify that shift; I’m gonna take the slow genocide that you were getting, Black people, and I’m gonna make it a fast genocide. And we got to say: What we gonna do about that? It is everybody’s fight when this kind of hell is being brought down. [cheers]
Ralph 42:23
Like she said, I worked in the military and the federal government, but not for this shit. [crowd afirms] I’ve seen a lot through the years, but I’ve never seen shit like this. I’m glad that as far as I could see, I see people. God bless you.
Jolly Good Ginger 42:40
I look out here today, I see a lot of people who could have stayed at home, but you stand here. I look across America at all the different protests and I see those who stand in front of fascism and say: Hell no! I also see those who wear their fucking mask and kidnap people off the street. [crowd grumbles] I also see those in the White House who are directing this fascist takeover of our country. [crowd: haters] And where they stand tells me everything I need to know.
Reverend Hagler 43:16
If we’re going to drive out this administration, we had better find ways to put out differences on the side and come together. [cheers] The time is now, the moment is now that we drive racism and hatred and fascism from our communities.
Sam Goldman 43:42
The time has come for the fall of the Trump fascist regime. Beginning November 5, 2025 in Washington, D.C., humanity’s only hope is for the decent people of this country to rise in our millions. We cannot wait for future and rigged elections. We must drive out the Trump fascist regime from power. Beginning November 5th, the one year anniversary of Trump’s election flood D.C. in determined and nonviolent protest. Surround the White House, surround the Capitol, surround the illegitimate, fascist backed Supreme Court. Come back again and again and again across the country. Refuse to comply. Every person of conscience, millions of us together. Grind the machinery of this fascist regime to a halt. Don’t stop until Trump is removed.
Sam Goldman 44:52
Thanks for listening to Refuse Fascism. Again, I hope to see you for the Refuse Fascism organizing webinar: The time has come for the fall of the Trump fascist regime — taking place this Thursday via Zoom at 8:00 p.m. — a link to register is in the show notes. Your support is urgently needed to get the message of this show, and this movement, organizing on a whole different level, influencing millions. Please donate today at RefuseFascism.org just hit that donate button or text support to 855-755-1314, you can also join our Patreon community at Patreon.com/RefuseFascism, where your support keeps the show going and fighting against this fascist nightmare.
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